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Doggerland


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#841    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 January 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am not going to argue wuth you about genetics, Cormac, but the map I posted is based on research done in 2011:

http://en.wikipedia....-DNA)#Subgroups

Check reference [22] : ISOGG 2011

But it could be based on nothing more than a rounding error of the statistics: 4.8% would fall under the lowest limit in the map, 5.2 would fall in the 5-10% range.

Sorry Abe, but it's not as the map itself is based on an earlier work, to whit:

Adapted from S. Rootsi et al. (2004), Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe, American Journal of Human Genetics 75, 128–137

http://en.wikipedia....aplogroup_I.png

Which means that your map is based on a contemporary study to the source I gave. Not that it's a significant difference as most of the percentages given in my source were rounded up, which is not an uncommon occurance. The actual percentages for the three major areas in Sicily were as follows:

Piazza:  7.6%
Caccamo:  8.6%
Ragusa:  7.1%

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#842    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

OK, and as I said: I should not argue with you about genetics, lol.

Well Proclus, that didn't hurt at all.

Just ask.

And now let's get back to Doggerland (because I do know the two of you rub each other the wrong way, and I won't like it if this turns into another endless.... nevermind).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 January 2013 - 05:05 PM.


#843    Abramelin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:18 AM

Further Evidence of Ancient Boat People of Northern Europe

I find it quite amazing that just a stones throw away in geographic terms we find that 'boat people' have been found and are accepted as the oldest civilisations directly after the last ice age.  It is if British archaeologist are out of their 'comfort zone' to study these neighbours of ours to see if there are similarities we can see and incorporate into our own Mesolithic findings.

Here is extract from 'The Full Wiki ': http://www.thefullwiki.org/Nordland

'There is evidence of human settlement in Nordland as far back as 10,500 years ago, about as early as in southern Norway. These Stone age people lived near the coast, often on islands and typically along straits near the open sea, with a rich provision of marine resources. Such archeological evidence has been found on Vega, in Leirfjord and along Saltstraumen. There are at least 15 locations with prehistoric rock carvings in Nordland, from Helgeland in the south to Narvik in the north (see Fosna-Hensbacka culture).'


[IMAGE]
Mesolithic Boat Drawings found in caves

They lived on coasts and islands and travelled by boat - as you would do in a flooded watery environment.  Consequently, if I'm correct about Prehistoric Britain wouldn't we do the same?

So what areas of Scandinavia were occupied at the end of the Ice Age and is their a relationship to Britain?

[IMAGE]

The entire civilisation was water based and lived in rivers of on the coasts - yet our archaeologists insist that we lived as 'hunter/gathers on dry land!!  and remember between us and the Scandinavians was not the North Sea but 'Doggerland'

[IMAGE]

So trading and communication with this civilisation was by following the shallow coast routes to a place we know existed in 9000BC - Star Carr, were we have found a town on the edge of a lake with the first house and 'planks' of wood.

So, have we progressed by 9000BC from reed boats to wooden boats?

Even with all this evidence of boats in Mesolithic Period there will be some that would doubt that these boats could carry the stones that constructed Stonehenge - but look at this cave drawing:


[IMAGE]

Is the image in the top right a boat carrying a huge stone and is the two upright figures below standing stones??

I only wish that this drawing was from the Cheddar Gouge overlooking the route to Stonehenge - unfortunately for me its not its from Häljesta, Västmanland in Sweden.

But it clearly shows transporting stones on boats was common place in Northern Europe as it was in ancient Egypt in the Mesolithic Period.


[IMAGE]

Posted 17th May 2011 by Robert John Langdon

http://robertjohnlan...oat-people.html


++++

EDIT:

An image from one of my earlier posts:

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 02 April 2013 - 11:58 AM.


#844    Abramelin

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:54 PM

The next is a post from another board. It mentions/shows many names, terms and maps already described and discussed in this thread, but with a lot of new information.

Anyway, worth a read for those interested in Doggerland:

We can also see the impact of natural disasters in this time period - these natural disasters included major volcanic activity in the central part of Europe in what is now western Germany on the Eiffel plateau 13,000 to 11,000 years ago, when a large part of what is now Germany was covered with ash and rocks. The most powerful explosion was from the Laach volcano *** 13,000 years ago, which seriously damaged local plant cover and drove away game animals. Archaeologist Hans-Peter Schulz theorizes that people also fled the disaster area, and, based on archaeological finds, may have fled as far away as central Russia. It could be expected that during this flight people also fled northwards into the periglacial Baltic area. After a volcanic eruption, vegetation is restored relatively quickly. Because of this, we can assume that populations wandered back and forth between the area of the natural disaster and the neighbouring territories. This tendency served to mix together various human populations and allowed for the consolidation of human genetic types and numerous incidents of language contact throughout the heart of Europe.

http://forum.axishis...777181#p1777181


*** Should be: Laacher See volcano.


#845    Abramelin

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 January 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

And an older post about the Strait of Dover:
http://www.unexplain...90#entry3990138

I just found an image showing how the Strait of Dover might have looked 8500 BP. I don't know how accurate that representation is, but here it is anyway:

Posted Image
MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.theothers...channelform.htm

Must have been an impressive sight if there were already sailors present to admire the view.

.

Iman Wilkins had some very controversial ideas about where Troy was located and where the Iliad took place, but we seem to have similar ideas about the North Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, as I found out just now:

He identifies the Helle Sea with the sea separating England from the continent of Europe, including the Channel,
the North sea, and the Baltic, and points out the enormous number of place names reflecting this identification,
such as Helford, Helston, Helladon, Hull, Hougate, Hellegat, Heligoland, Hellevad, and so on. The word is of extremely ancient Indo-European origin, often referring to the Kingdom of the Dead. Then there is another location for the Pillars of Hercules, at the Straits of Dover, indicating yet another geographic feature which seems to have been picked up and relocated, when the Greeks settled in the south. This identification must have endured for some time after this, up north, because it was referred to by Tacitus.


http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html

I hope some will remember my posts in this thread about "Hell" as an ancient name for the North Sea.

The main difference between Wilkin's theory and mine is some 5000 years....

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.


#846    Abramelin

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

Is there anyone out there who can change the next 2D image of the Strait of Dover in 6500 BCE into a 3D image?

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 16 April 2013 - 07:33 PM.


#847    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:24 AM

nice job. wow the north sea gate must have been one of earth greatest wonders. :nw:
behind it lied a secret world full of other wonders like the great pyramid, the eye of the sun and two towers.

http://www.google.no...wIcTj4QTJk4GoBQ


http://www.google.no...fEB9ZJOreZbqGM:

the eye of the sun produses a 30m large concentrated sunbeam on the temple of gods every year at the date 21 jun, summer solstice

http://www.google.no...img.5-fVfr77-kE



interesting info on the genetics too :tu:

keep it coming

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 05:02 AM.


#848    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:23 AM

Solent

Remains of human habitation have been found from the prehistoric, Roman and Saxon eras, showing that humans retreated towards progressively higher ground over these periods. Offshore from Bouldnor, Isle of Wight, divers have found at 11 metres depth the submerged remains of a wooden building that was built there on land around 6000 BC when the sea level was lower and the land was higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent


UK: Solent's Stone Age village 'had modern high street links'
Feb 2012

Work on an 8,000-year-old Stone Age settlement under the surface of the Solent in Hampshire is throwing up evidence of clear parallels of the modern "high street", archaeologists say.

After 30 years of excavating the area around Bouldnor Cliff, a boatyard was uncovered last summer, which teams have been working on ever since.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Divers taking part in a routine survey spotted a lobster cleaning out its burrow on the seabed and to their surprise the animal was throwing out dozens of pieces of worked flint - which turned out to be the first sign of the village.

The discoveries, after analysing a mile-long stretch of seabed, are of "international importance" the trust says, because it sheds new light on how people lived in the Mesolithic period.

"One area they were doing boat building, nearby they were on riverbanks and sand bars collecting reeds or doing a bit of fishing or elsewhere they would be hunting game," said director Garry Momber.

"Effectively you have all these activities happening which have strong parallels with the modern high street, but they've all just been a bit consolidated."

"We have found a pit with burnt flints, and evidence they were working wood, using technology that was 2,000 years ahead of its time."

Work to get the seabed to give up its secrets though, has required the removal of sediment that has protected the settlement for thousands of years - and this removal has given the tides the opportunity to erode that evidence away.


'Painstakingly slow'

"It is the only site of its kind in the UK," said Mr Momber, pointing out that it is currently eroding by up to 20ins (50cm) a year.

The settlement would have been flooded around the time the English channel was created, as sea levels rose in about 6,500BC.

At that time, the area near Bouldnor would have been covered with woods and freshwater lakes and rivers.

"Sea levels came up and flooded the whole lot and it was abandoned," continued Mr Momber.

"It was covered by sediment and then by salt marsh and then by the sea."

So far, archaeologists have uncovered a part of a wooden boat, flints and remains of food eaten by the Stone Age people who were based there.


http://www.sott.net/...gh-street-links


Video about the finds here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...pshire-17046338



THE BIG DIG/COVER STORY: Bouldnor Cliff

Evaluation excavation at BC-V in 2007 revealed quantities of material within the old land surface, including twigs, intact hazelnuts, burnt organic material, charcoal and burnt flint. In the peat above were timbers with evidence of working, including a piece of tangentially split oak that suggests the hewing of a large structure or possibly a logboat.

Much more here:
http://www.archaeolo...121/feat3.shtml


Mesolithic Occupation at Bouldnor Cliff
and the Submerged Prehistoric Landscapes of the Solent


http://www.archaeolo...ooks/momber2011


The most significant finding that emerged from the analysis was the use of technologies on some of the worked wood that are 2,000 years ahead of anything else seen in the UK to date. The largest piece of timber recovered so far measured 0.94m long by 0.41m wide and provided a radiocarbon date of 6240-6000 cal BC (Beta 249735). It had been tangentially split from a large slow grown oak tree. This method employs wedges to cut a plank towards the edge of a tree so the grain runs almost parallel along its width. The technique can be used to create a flat plank. Once this is removed from a large oak bole, around three quarters of the tree's circumference would be available for further conversion or fashioning. Another indicative factor was the relative angles of the medullary rays, which were almost parallel. This suggested the timber had been converted from the edge of a large tree in the order of 1.5m to 2m wide. The length of such a plank may well have been over 10m long.

This presents the possibility of creating a large, deep log boat or dugout canoe with the rest of the tree. If not the remains of a log boat this tangentially split timber could have been part of a monumental building. Prehistoric timbers using these conversion techniques have been found elsewhere, although not until the Neolithic period over 2,000 years later. The timber is associated with many other pieces of trimmed and flattened wood. Some have been surveyed and recovered while others remain beneath the old land surface. The true function of this exceptional site can only be resolved by further investigation which must be done before it is lost completely.


http://www.hwtma.org...gations-in-2010


#849    Abramelin

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:29 AM

I have posted about Jean Deruelle's theory several times in this thread (including his images),

http://www.unexplain...35#entry4100438

http://www.unexplain...35#entry4089175

http://www.unexplain...25#entry3341612

http://www.unexplain...25#entry3342159


and here's something new-ish:

The "Great Plain" of Atlantis - was it in Doggerland?
The Atlantis of Jean Deruelle
The "true heart of Europe"


It was inevitable that Doggerland (See: Doggerland lost), the part of the North Sea which was left dry for several thousand years after the end of the last ice age, should come to be considered as one more possible location for Plato's Atlantis. Doggerland stretched all the way from the east coast of England and Scotland to Denmark and supported a thriving mesolithic population. "It was the true heart of Europe," says Richard Bates, geochemist at St Andrews University in Scotland. It struggled for several millennia against the rising sea levels, then was submerged in a sudden catastrophe at a date estimated between 6200 B.C. and 5500 B.C. (Maybe caused by, or connected to the Störegga Landslide). Robert Graves himself had briefly considered the area of shallows known as Dogger Bank as a possible location for Atlantis, before dismissing it on grounds of distance.

As it happens, more than a decade before geologists focused attention on Doggerland at a 2012 meeting of the British Royal Society, a Frenchman, Jean Deruelle, had published a book making a strongly argumented case for the notoriously elusive "Great Plain" of Atlantis having been situated on now submerged land in the North Sea. He published his hypotheses in 1999, in a book called "L'Atlantide des Mégalithes," as part of a broader examination of the spread of megalithic cultures and little studied West to East movements of populations. The book was published by a reputable publisher of historic books, but received scant attention.

Jean Deruelle was born in 1915 in Longueville (Nord) and studied at the elite French Ecole Polytechnique. He was the CEO of the French coal mining company, "Les Houillères de Lorraine." During his retirement, he indulged his life-long passion for Brittany and the megalithic civilizations of Europe.  He died two years after the publication of "L'Atlantide des Mégalithes."

The location of the "Great Plain" has always been one of the biggest stumbling blocks for any Atlantis identification. Deruelle, an engineer and a geologist by profession, offers a hypothesis that is rational,  highly precise, and based on his areas of expertise. As for the literary form of his book, he chose a lighthearted approach,  keeping to a semi-fictional threat of a wide-eyed, naive amateur,  a character by the name of Thomas, who is learning as he goes along, and reporting to a chorus of bemused and sceptical relatives and friends.


More here:
http://www.q-mag.org...nofa/index.html



"inevitable"..... sigh.



The North Sea around 3000 BCE, according to Deruelle:
Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 29 May 2013 - 09:58 AM.


#850    Abramelin

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

Although both Deruelle and Trystan, and now this guy Bates, never mentioned the "Oera Linda Book", I'll bet a dime that at some point in their lives they all have read this 19th century book that is purported to be an account of an unknown ancient civilization in Europe, ruled by the ancestors of the present Frisians, and that that is the sole reason they all try to 'prove' Doggerland/Dogger Island survived for much longer (= closer to the notorious date in the OLB of 2194 BCE) than scientists are willing to accept based on radiocarbon dating (peat).


#851    Abramelin

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:27 AM

FROM THE FEBRUARY 1994 ISSUE
Northern Exposition
By Scott Faber|Tuesday, February 01, 1994


(...)

The archeologists know roughly how old the images are from the layer of gravel that had covered the boulders. The gravel layer, which is found all along the coast of Norway, was deposited some 6,000 years ago, after the last ice sheets of the Ice Age had melted and the sea had reached its highest level. The carvings must have been made after the boulders were uncovered by the retreating ice but before they were covered again by the water and gravel. The boulders were raised to their present high and dry position by the rebounding land: freed from the depressing weight of the ice sheet, it has been slowly rising for the past 9,000 years.

Hesjedal thus estimates that the Sørøya images were carved between 6,000 and 9,000 years ago. That makes them the oldest known boat images in Europe and among the oldest in the world. (The boat drawers of Sørøya were certainly not the first boat builders, however; Australia was settled as early as 37,000 years ago by people who must have arrived in boats.)

Who were the early inhabitants of Sørøya? The answer is not clear. Ten thousand years ago, as the ice sheet covering Scandinavia began to shrink, northern Norway is thought to have been colonized from two directions: from the east, by hunters from the Russian steppes who were pursuing migrating game such as reindeer, and whose rock carvings of reindeer have been found not far from Sørøya on the Norwegian mainland; and from the south, by people who made their way up Norway’s ice-free west coast. At the moment there is no way of telling which direction the Sørøyans came from--or whether it was both south and east.

Certainly they were accomplished sailors, because their settlements have been found on islands even farther from the coast than Sørøya. And surely, says Hesjedal, they could not have survived on the occasional reindeer; they must have eaten fish and sea mammals, both of which are plentiful in the rich, Gulf Stream-warmed waters off northern Norway. Curiously, though, apart from two murky drawings that may represent whales, no sea creatures are depicted in the rock carvings from Sørøya.

(...)

http://discovermagaz...43#.Uah4i9g06Vs



The boats of Slettnes: sources of Stone Age shipbuilding in Northern Scandinavia
Posted Image


#852    Abramelin

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 May 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Although both Deruelle and Trystan, and now this guy Bates, never mentioned the "Oera Linda Book", I'll bet a dime that at some point in their lives they all have read this 19th century book that is purported to be an account of an unknown ancient civilization in Europe, ruled by the ancestors of the present Frisians, and that that is the sole reason they all try to 'prove' Doggerland/Dogger Island survived for much longer (= closer to the notorious date in the OLB of 2194 BCE) than scientists are willing to accept based on radiocarbon dating (peat).

It could also be because of what Bryony Coles once suggested :

Once formed in the late last glacial, the Dogger Bank would have been a substantial hilly region in the North Sea plain, and, as sea-level rose in the Holocene, would have remained exposed first as a peninsular and then an island of an extensive archipelago. Coles (1998) suggests that it was only cut off as an island in after c. 5,000 BP when sea-level climbed to within 10–12m of its current height, although Jelgersma’s (1979) sea-level model would suggest this happened earlier. Thus large areas of the Channel and North Sea would have been dry land for the first half of the period in question, and numerous islands would have remained exposed in the North Sea even at the end of the Mesolithic...

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/

We know now that it was cut off as an island around 8150 BP.

-

Interest in the area was reinvigorated in the 1990s by the work of Professor Bryony Coles, who named the area "Doggerland" ("after the great banks in the southern North Sea") and produced a series of speculative maps of the area.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Doggerland

As I have shown in this thread it was the third translator of the "Oera Linda Book" , Overwijn, who already coined that name in 1941.

And recently I found out the second translator of the OLB, Herman Wirth, coined it even earlier (and then borrowed by Overwijn) in 1934: Herman Wirth - Aufgang der Menschheit

Some may think it was coined even earlier by Clement Reid in 1913 in his "Submerged Forests", but I have read that book, and he never mentions "Doggerland", only the "Dogger Bank" and he added a drawing of how the Doggerland area may have looked.


Soooo.... did Bryony Coles read the Oera Linda Book, and is that why she suggested a date of 3000 BCE?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 June 2013 - 04:58 AM.


#853    Taun

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 01:20 AM

I'm posting this for Abramelin...  This is an animation I made for him based on a map he drew showing the Dover Straights and Doggerland... I was able to animate it in a 3-D program and this is the result...
It has a few spots I'm not happy with but the animation took the better part of a month to do - so I don't really feel like re-doing it...



This pic below is the model I created based on his drawings... the red line shows the path of the animation...
Posted Image

the bright green area to the northwest of the line (at the start) is present day Dover(ish) while the same color area to the south is the northern coast of France...
This area represents the newly broken land bridge between the British Isles and Europe...
The southern coast then goes on to represent Belgium, and on to the Jutland area of Denmark... Doggerland is the Island area north of the end of the red line....

This is a simple animation, and my first attempt at a large scale movie - so please try to overlook the crudity of it...

Any art/animation criticisms should be directed to me not Abramelin...

Edited by Taun, 30 August 2013 - 01:24 AM.


#854    Abramelin

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:17 PM

Thanks a lot. Taun !!

Any attempt of displaying the experience of sailing past the original pillars of Hercules is better than nothing.

And you did a good job.

++

EDIT

And this is the map Taun based his animation on:


Posted Image
MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

He also showed Dogger Island.


./

Edited by Abramelin, 31 August 2013 - 09:27 PM.


#855    Van Gorp

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 December 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Cormac, what I said about the 'Nephilim/Nef Hille' was just in jest. There is no Nef Hille in the OLB, I just used the OLB way of twisting and distorting ancient names of gods, and have some fun with it.

About genetics: I know it's what we call an 'exact science', but it's conclusions based on new facts change so rapidly that we just have to wait for a century for any definative conclusions about human migrations.

"Mish-mash"....

What I am doing in this thead is what is known as 'brainstorming', anyone just blurts out what comes up in her/his mind.

I never said that what I posted was the truth, I just tried out options based on what science and history had to offer.

Can we agree to disagree?


++++

EDITED to add:

The Maglamosian culture spread from England, across Doggerland, to north-western Russia.

After the end of the last Ice Age there were many large ice lakes bordering the retreating ice sheats.

People from England could have been in contact with people from Russia by means of travelling with boats and/or canoes.

And a lot easier than travelling by land.

So this is what I think: that culture *AND* its language spread along that area. But at some point in time, the people at the east developed their own language, the language we now know to be proto-Uralic, or proto-Finno-Ugric.

But remnants of that language got preseverved in the language of the people that entered the western-Euopean area, the pre-Indo-Europeans that invaded Europe long after the end of the last ice age.

Yep, I know, my theory about the name of the Dutch goddess, "Nehallennia", may be off, but it was my assumption that this name got preserved as "Hell"/"Halja"/"Hulle"/"Holle" as the name the Frisians gave to the North Sea. And the Scandinavians had a goddess called "Hell" who ruled about an underworld covered by mists.... an island protected by walls and with a well that was the origin of a lot of rivers... like Doggerland.

Originally 'Nehallennia" may have been an erratic Roman translation/interpretation of "maalähelläjään", or something similar, the 'Land near Ice".

I know you don't like what I am doing here, but I have told you many times I am not convinced about what I suggested.

I am just trying out things, hoping someone gets a sparkling brainwave, and tells us about something not one of us thought of before.

This is the thread to show you have imagination combined with science.

I am not waiting for some 'channeler' to post bs based on his/her dreams, ok?

Cormac, I do aprreciate your critical view, really.

But I also hope you are able to appreciate me giving options.

Even though these options are not proven facts.


.

Lego, the law of linguistics :-)

Nephilim -> fallen angels
Nifelheim -> place of mist (nevel)

That is an easy one: Ne-Val (Neer-Val) -> Down Fall (af-hel=val)

The giants (de reuzen -> the ru-wysen -> those who used to ru-le with their knowledge -> d-ru-wiz's -> druids) fell in sin (not as wise at they used too, moral standards were lowering :-).
In the misty land they were living, where heaven was on earth (paradise, or when clouds meet earth: clouds/mist falls down on earth) -> neer-val, (h)el-ische champs, naharvalli

Edited by Van Gorp, 01 September 2013 - 06:09 PM.





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