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Doggerland


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#151    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 06:55 PM

Yet another summary (and I hope you will belive me that I do not believe everything I found):


-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was probably part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They very probably were seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC.

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid.

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers -  about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Are they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??




.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2009 - 07:51 PM.


#152    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:20 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 December 2009 - 06:55 PM, said:

Yet another summary (and I hope you will belive me that I do not believe everything I found):


-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was probably part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They very probably were seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC.

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid.

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers -  about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Are they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??




.

Jesus, is none of you morons able to add to this info?

I read here about the most crazy theories, but as soon as someone - me - comes up with something real, it suddenly gets all quiet around here.


#153    Br Cornelius

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 December 2009 - 09:20 PM, said:

Jesus, is none of you morons able to add to this info?

I read here about the most crazy theories, but as soon as someone - me - comes up with something real, it suddenly gets all quiet around here.

Having dark skin in northern latitudes is very bad for your health. The body is unable to manufacture sufficient Vit. D and illness and rickets result. Life is even shorter than would have been common at the time. Since Doggerland is at the Northern limits of human habitation at the time it would have been a prime spot for a genetic mutation for pale skin to take hold. Pale skin allows greater vit.D production by the skin.

The reason I think that most people are not expressing huge excitement, and I have said this before, this would have represented a culture of hunters who had a fairly primitive culture. Key in that it represents a seed culture for the local area (or possibly just a stepping stone from a greater distance), but unlikely to represnt anything hugely significant in the desire to find what most people want - a mother culture. You have to consider your audience.


Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#154    Abramelin

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:39 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 22 December 2009 - 10:07 PM, said:

Having dark skin in northern latitudes is very bad for your health. The body is unable to manufacture sufficient Vit. D and illness and rickets result. Life is even shorter than would have been common at the time. Since Doggerland is at the Northern limits of human habitation at the time it would have been a prime spot for a genetic mutation for pale skin to take hold. Pale skin allows greater vit.D production by the skin.

The reason I think that most people are not expressing huge excitement, and I have said this before, this would have represented a culture of hunters who had a fairly primitive culture. Key in that it represents a seed culture for the local area (or possibly just a stepping stone from a greater distance), but unlikely to represnt anything hugely significant in the desire to find what most people want - a mother culture. You have to consider your audience.


Br Cornelius

Well thanks, at least you post something..

Yes, I know about the advantage of having white skin in northern lattitudes. But I guess an extra is blue eyes and blond hair, and I assumed - maybe wrongly so - that with 'white' they meant white skin, blue eyes, and (light-)blond hair.

The idea that Doggerland was inhabited by hunter-gatherers was based on what people assumed the climate in that country was like; but it turns out it was very hospitable as compared to the highlands surrounding it (the avarage temperature was 2 degrees Celsius higher than in present England. Now they think they were settlers, and went to those countries surrounding the present North Sea just to hunt game during summer time.

And god knows what these settlers did all year round in Doggerland. We may be in for some surprizes.

Yes, Doggerland only tickles the imagination of people like me, that is, not someone who believes these people flew around in flying saucers, and fighting eachother using ancient nukes and missiles equiped with magic crystals, and in regular contact with aliens from Alpha Moron-y....

I guess that the interest in Doggerland will rise as soon as they find boats and ancient (stone) structures down below.

EDIT:

Just thinking... the Doggers Bank was very probably a morene ( I don't know if this is a proper English word, but I mean a large volume of sand, boulders and rubble that piled up at the end of an advancing glacier). That could mean there were huge boulders on that hill. Is it too farfetched to assume the Doggerlanders used these boulders to build the first megalithic structures? And after Doggerland got submerged, that they - being seafarers -  spread their culture of building with boulders around the North Sea and the Atlantic coasts of the Atlantic?

Edited by Abramelin, 23 December 2009 - 06:55 PM.


#155    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 December 2009 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well thanks, at least you post something..

Yes, I know about the advantage of having white skin in northern lattitudes. But I guess an extra is blue eyes and blond hair, and I assumed - maybe wrongly so - that with 'white' they meant white skin, blue eyes, and (light-)blond hair.

The idea that Doggerland was inhabited by hunter-gatherers was based on what people assumed the climate in that country was like; but it turns out it was very hospitable as compared to the highlands surrounding it (the avarage temperature was 2 degrees Celsius higher than in present England. Now they think they were settlers, and went to those countries surrounding the present North Sea just to hunt game during summer time.

And god knows what these settlers did all year round in Doggerland. We may be in for some surprizes.

Yes, Doggerland only tickles the imagination of people like me, that is, not someone who believes these people flew around in flying saucers, and fighting eachother using ancient nukes and missiles equiped with magic crystals, and in regular contact with aliens from Alpha Moron-y....

I guess that the interest in Doggerland will rise as soon as they find boats and ancient (stone) structures down below.


When they find those things then yes I would guess that people will get more interested.

I didn't get the impression that that site was implying white haired blue eyed Aryans . I would think that those characteristics were a particularly extreme form of the white skin developmental pressure which occurred in a relatively isolated population in the extreme north of our range.

I think the critical factor is the relatively short time they had in this Eden, and the limits it would likely have imposed on their development. If it proved to be the case that they had agriculture then all bets are off, but I find this unlikely. Possibly they came with knowledge of pastoralism, but  its unlikely it would have taken hold in northern Europe at that time and even if it did the potential for surpluses and hence artisan crafts would have been limited.

I am interested, but you know where my real passion is, and I think that will produce much more interesting results in the future.

Cheer.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#156    Abramelin

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:16 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 December 2009 - 07:02 PM, said:

When they find those things then yes I would guess that people will get more interested.

I didn't get the impression that that site was implying white haired blue eyed Aryans . I would think that those characteristics were a particularly extreme form of the white skin developmental pressure which occurred in a relatively isolated population in the extreme north of our range.

I think the critical factor is the relatively short time they had in this Eden, and the limits it would likely have imposed on their development. If it proved to be the case that they had agriculture then all bets are off, but I find this unlikely. Possibly they came with knowledge of pastoralism, but  its unlikely it would have taken hold in northern Europe at that time and even if it did the potential for surpluses and hence artisan crafts would have been limited.

I am interested, but you know where my real passion is, and I think that will produce much more interesting results in the future.

Cheer.

Br Cornelius


Uhmmm... what site are you talking about? I have posted so many links that I don't know which site you mean.

In my country live many people of Berber (Moroccan) descent. They have white (or 'olive colered') skin, brown/black eyes, and black hair.

But here in Holland, with our lack of sunshine, they are as white as lillies.

And it is a well known scientific fact that these Berbers were around millennia ago in the northern Sahara.

So that's why I assumed that with 'white' they meant blond, blue-eyed, and with white skin.

Or else these scientists would not have said that, knowing there were light skinned people wandering around the Saharan desert, millennia ago, and long before Doggerland.


#157    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 December 2009 - 07:16 PM, said:

Uhmmm... what site are you talking about? I have posted so many links that I don't know which site you mean.

In my country live many people of Berber (Moroccan) descent. They have white (or 'olive colered') skin, brown/black eyes, and black hair.

But here in Holland, with our lack of sunshine, they are as white as lillies.

And it is a well known scientific fact that these Berbers were around millennia ago in the northern Sahara.

So that's why I assumed that with 'white' they meant blond, blue-eyed, and with white skin.

Or else these scientists would not have said that, knowing there were light skinned people wandering around the Saharan desert, millennia ago, and long before Doggerland.

I live in Ireland as i am certain you know. My ancestry is Scandinavian and Scottish. I suffer from Vit.D deficiency due to lack of sunlight. The white skin thing is most likely part of a complex of evolutionary developments. I know of people who live nearby from Italy and they suffer even more than I do, so the marginal effects of even slight pigmentation, and a lack of the other associated metabolic  changes would mean the Berbers you mention  would still probably fair very poorly if they made it up to Doggerland and stayed.
It seems reasonable to state that Blond Blue eyed people would have been likely in Doggerland, even if you then use that information to imply something politcally dubious.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#158    Abramelin

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:43 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 December 2009 - 07:28 PM, said:

<BR>I live in Ireland as i am certain you know. My ancestry is Scandinavian and Scottish. I suffer from Vit.D deficiency due to lack of sunlight. The white skin thing is most likely part of a complex of evolutionary developments. I know of people who live nearby from Italy and they suffer even more than I do, so the marginal effects of even slight pigmentation, and a lack of the other associated metabolic&nbsp;&nbsp;changes would mean the Berbers you mention&nbsp;&nbsp;would still probably fair very poorly if they made it up to Doggerland and stayed.<BR>It seems reasonable to state that Blond Blue eyed people would have been likely in Doggerland, even if you then use that information to imply something politcally dubious


These Berbers here do indeed suffer form vitamine D deficiency, and that is why health carers advise the women to take of their veils (OR drink a lot of milk)., or else suffer from bone diseases.

And btw, I can't help it if Doggerland appears to be the homeland of white, blue-eyed, and light-blond people; they must have originated somewhere, right?.

From what I learned about the countries close to the ice sheets in Northern Europe during the last ice age, Doggerland was the best place to live in. So any genetic change may have taking place there, even though that area was good to live in for just a couple of thousand years.

How long does it take for genetic change to take place anyway??

EDIT:I hope the administrators here wake up at some moment, and realize there is something wrong here...

Edited by Abramelin, 23 December 2009 - 08:21 PM.


#159    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:51 PM

Because I am too lazy to re-post everything here again, I will just give you a link to my own site with the latest info (and I do hope the admins won't mind; I am not out seeking for new members of my site, I really do not care at all about that):


http://www.artforthe...&p=25905#p25905

Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2009 - 04:54 PM.


#160    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:30 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 December 2009 - 04:51 PM, said:

Because I am too lazy to re-post everything here again, I will just give you a link to my own site with the latest info (and I do hope the admins won't mind; I am not out seeking for new members of my site, I really do not care at all about that):


http://www.artforthe...&p=25905#p25905

Hello!!!!

I just need help here.

This is NOT about Atlantis, this is about something REAL.

Use your phantasy, come up with ideas.

This was a large stretch of land, the size of the present UK, that got submerged in a catastrophic way.

And all that in 8100 BP, after giant tsunamis.


It was something of a paradise, the inhabitants were sailors, they traded with the people in Europe.

After their remaining island, the remnant of Doggerland, got flooded. they fled to all corners of the earth in their ships.


#161    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:36 PM

I found the next blog entry about the who, how, what and why of Doggerland, and I will comment on it in the next post :


Doggerland.
Andre Willers, 2 Dec 2008


Where are the bodies ?
See New Scientist of 6 Nov 2008 p40 .

An interesting little problem .
There is a dearth of Mesolithic (circa 15 000 to 8 000 years ago) human skeletons in England . Even Neanderthals practiced some funerary rites , even if it only involved eating granny's stringy carcass salted with tears .

Discussion :
Let us step back to about 12 000 years ago . The lower sea-level (due to all the water locked-up in the ice-masses in the ice-age) made south-east England and the continent a contiguous land-mass . The English channel did not exist . In today's North Sea was a low lying 23 000 sq km landmass called Doggerland , nearly as big as England .
This has been mapped (see British Archaeological Reports number 31 , Archaeopress 2007 , by Gaffney et al) using seismic data from oil exploration companies .

Ireland was also contiguous with England (with maybe a narrow channel)

The Gulfstream meant that the southwestern regions had a fairly balmy climate . This became rapidly worse as you moved northwards . What is today England and Ireland were the highlands , ranging from heavily forested in the south to tundra and ice to the north .

Agriculture or domesticated animals had not arrived yet . Humans existed , and existed very well by fishing , fowling and hunting(mostly small game) . In the warmer and more fecund areas to the south , they were sedentary . As the living became more marginal in the colder areas to the north , nomadism increased .

Doggerland was a low-lying , marshy area teeming with birdlife and small game . Fishing abounded in the shallow waters .

If the trench between Ireland and England was open , the gulfstream would have branched up it . The surrounding areas would have been even more of a hunter-gatherer's paradise than Doggerland .

Population densities .
These can be surprisingly large , approaching agricultural levels . See Amerindian population levels in California pre-Spanish . At these levels it involves heavy use of what we call "sustainable ecological principles" . It really is farming , but not involving agriculture .
We are talking about a period of at least 5 000 years here , so there was plenty of time for the population to approach Malthusian and technological limits .

But the populations would be mostly around the coasts .


Funerary practices .
Being humans , every community would have different ones .
Recycling would be popular (cf Hindu , Pacific , African or Evenk sky-burial , where vultures do the honours) .
Burial , sea-burial , cremation , you name it .

Catastrophe .
Tsunamis were the major culprit .
As the temperature increased , big dams of melt-water built up behind the moraine-dams of the large glaciers bordering the north-sea . As they broke , huge waves washed over Doggerland without any warning whatsoever .
Underwater landslides contributed , as well as tectonic activity caused by plate-rebound as the ice burden eased .

Anything human was simply washed away . This included any graves . Any bones would have ended up on the bottom of the North Sea . Trawlers have dredged up human bones for more than a century .

Timeline :
About 9 000 years ago : the Irish Sea forms .
About 8 000 years ago : Doggerland disappears . The North Sea breaks through to form the English Channel . A huge mass of icy North Sea low-salinity water scoured a deep channel past Dover . This would have changed the weather for at least one season , as well as killed most sea-life .
Most surviving humans would have perished of hunger . (They had little in the way of food preservation , or reason to do so .)
Warfare for food left very few survivors .
(Present human civilizations would not survive such a fluctuation either.)

Note that the three known Mesolithic burial sites are on very high ground .

The Aftermath
The tsunamis continued for a thousand years or more . The survivors prudently avoided low-lying areas and eked out a miserable existence on the fortified hilltops . Things gradually improved as the climate became warmer and more stable . The tsunamis became infrequent . Immigrants from the continent brought the agricultural and domesticated animal civilization packages (a-la-Jared Diamond) .

Before you could say New Economic Paradigm , they were building graves that could not be washed away and seismic observatories .
(See
http://andreswhy.blogspot.com "Nazca Lines and seismic prediction" )

Refugees .
This depends on their ship-building technology .
Even a small town can build sea-worthy ships .
The Vikings did it . So did the Greeks . Just about any civilization has done it . The question was: " Is there a profit in it?" A reason , apart from normal human inquisitiveness .
Trade (Cornish gold , tin and copper for Egyptian textiles springs to mind .) The foundations of the Bronze Age .
They had only to hug the coast around to Gibraltar to get into the Med .

Doggerland's major population centres would have been south of London , in the present English Channel .

The catastrophes described above did not happen all at once .
They would have seen their land being eaten up by the rising sea in the south and washed away by tsunamis in the north . (A bit like Florida).

Most would have stayed , assured by their priests and rulers that everything is under control . Those who left would not have gone to England , Ireland or France (too inhospitable) . Spain was better , but not very defensible . An island in a warm climate close to their main trading partner , Egypt ,would be ideal . Crete .

They would already have had trading outposts on Crete . The whole process probably took place about 8 000 to 9 000 years ago .(ie 6 000BC to 7 000BC) .

The Minoan and Egyptian civilizations then developed pari-passu into the Bronze Age .

Which is why the repopulation of England and Ireland proceeded so rapidly . The Minoans had ships and knew where all the mineral deposits were .

Atlantis .
(You didn't think you were getting away without another Atlantis , did you ?)

Plato's description of the destruction of Atlantis sounds like a horrified eyewitness account of a survivor of a tsunami . That rings true .

But he got it from an Egyptian source after about 5 000 years , who in turn got it from an Atlantean source . The periods involved get blurry .

Another puzzling feature is his insistence that the Atlanteans warred against the Athenians . The times don't match , even in his time-line .

But , remember , he was quoting an Egyptian account . From their viewpoint , Athenians were people from Athens (more specifically , the fortress of Akropolis) , not necessarily even Greeks .
The Akropolis had been a fortress since time immemorial .

He was also insistent that Atlantis was an imperially aggressive naval power . This fits in with the above speculation .

The Minoans aggressively established a trading empire across the Med .
An Outpost-Model , later copied by the Phoenicians , Portuguese , Dutch , etc. Characteristic of Sea Powers .

Thera .
Thera was a Minoan colony . Both it and the Minoan civilization was devastated by the explosion of the island and the resultant tsunamis on Crete .
Irony .

Etruscans .
An anomaly .
They were not molested by the Minoans or the Greeks . Even the Romans incorporated most of their civilization .

Likely a fundamentalist religious splinter group of the Minoans (ie Atlanteans) .
The timing seems about right . But well after the diaspora .

This would explain why the Romans were so determined to eradicate British Druidism . Normally , they tolerated just about any religion of a subject people (especially in the Republican era)
But Julius Caesar and all subsequent emperors went out of their way to destroy British Druidism . This is understandable if some of the Mysteries they took over from the Etruscans included religious beliefs about the Old Country . British Druidism would seem an abomination to them .

Architecture :
If you look carefully at Etruscan architecture (called Tuscan now) , you can see correlations with Minoan , Karnak and Carnac styles .
The Egyptians and Greeks were great copy-cats .
Look at the columns of their temples . They were too cheapskate to copy the taper from top-to-bottom Minoan look , so they tacked that ridiculous little flourish on top (see Ionion , Corinthian , Karnak styles)

Geomancy .
The western feng-shui . Not a well-known fact .
There is an extensive and well-developed western geomancy directly derived from the Etruscans via the Romans . The Greek version derived from the Minoans .
All cathedrals , without exception , were built according to these principles .
A whole plethora of rules about ratios , alignment with magnetic poles , etc , etc .
Most good architects are well aware of them , and keep to them . They usually make sense , and clients insist on them .

Traces of Atlantis.
If they used monoliths as pillars , the distinctive Minoan taper might be picked up on deep-sonar , deep-radar or gravitic sensors in the English Channel . Some elements might have been buried under deep silt from the Doggerland ground-mass , but the scouring action of the flood as the English Channel formed makes any small-piece survival unlikely . At the edges , maybe .
Their ship-building technology and architecture was copied quickly . There was no high-tech .

The only drawback is English snobbery . If it comes out that Atlantis was a suburb of London , we will never hear the end of it .

Andre


http://andreswhy.blo...doggerland.html

Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2009 - 07:49 PM.


#162    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:45 PM

Quote

The Gulfstream meant that the southwestern regions had a fairly balmy climate . This became rapidly worse as you moved northwards . What is today England and Ireland were the highlands , ranging from heavily forested in the south to tundra and ice to the north .
That was the situation at around 12,000 BP. Later the climate changed for the better (a lot better) further north.

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Agriculture or domesticated animals had not arrived yet . Humans existed , and existed very well by fishing , fowling and hunting(mostly small game) . In the warmer and more fecund areas to the south , they were sedentary . As the living became more marginal in the colder areas to the north , nomadism increased
Even at this time people settled further north. Apparantly these people were no whimps...

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Doggerland was a low-lying , marshy area teeming with birdlife and small game . Fishing abounded in the shallow waters .

If the trench between Ireland and England was open , the gulfstream would have branched up it . The surrounding areas would have been even more of a hunter-gatherer's paradise than Doggerland
.
Doggerland had extensive forests, meadows, lakes, hills, rivers, and yes, marshes. But the marshes appeared very probably near the end of Doggerland.
The Gulfstream was able to reach Doggerland from the north (like it still does, btw)

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Population densities .
These can be surprisingly large , approaching agricultural levels . See Amerindian population levels in California pre-Spanish . At these levels it involves heavy use of what we call "sustainable ecological principles" . It really is farming , but not involving agriculture .
We are talking about a period of at least 5 000 years here , so there was plenty of time for the population to approach Malthusian and technological limits .

But the populations would be mostly around the coasts .
Populations are always largest near the coasts, like today.

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Catastrophe .
Tsunamis were the major culprit .
As the temperature increased , big dams of melt-water built up behind the moraine-dams of the large glaciers bordering the north-sea . As they broke , huge waves washed over Doggerland without any warning whatsoever .
Underwater landslides contributed , as well as tectonic activity caused by plate-rebound as the ice burden eased .

Anything human was simply washed away . This included any graves . Any bones would have ended up on the bottom of the North Sea . Trawlers have dredged up human bones for more than a century .
Lake water that build up behind moraine-dams did indeed burst through now and then, but that was in an early period, when Doggerland was nothing but a freezing tundra.
The Storegga Slides occured much later, when Doggerland had become a very habitable place to live in.

Tectonic activity: true, because of isostatic rebound. Even during the past century some fairly heavy earthquakes occured near/under the Doggers Bank.

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The Aftermath
The tsunamis continued for a thousand years or more . The survivors prudently avoided low-lying areas and eked out a miserable existence on the fortified hilltops . Things gradually improved as the climate became warmer and more stable . The tsunamis became infrequent . Immigrants from the continent brought the agricultural and domesticated animal civilization packages (a-la-Jared Diamond) .
Doggerland was slowly sinking, but the tsunamis that eventually finished it all happened within a short time period.

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Doggerland's major population centres would have been south of London , in the present English Channel .
There were population centers there alright, but scientists are now convinced that the North Sea Doggerland area was nothing short of paradise, and they expect that the population there was quite high, and that the surrounding country was only used by the Doggerland people migrating into those areas during summertime (hunting/fishing).

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Most would have stayed , assured by their priests and rulers that everything is under control . Those who left would not have gone to England , Ireland or France (too inhospitable) . Spain was better , but not very defensible . An island in a warm climate close to their main trading partner , Egypt ,would be ideal . Crete .
Archeological, genetical and linguistical evidence shows people did migrate to the countries surrounding the North Sea.

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They would already have had trading outposts on Crete . The whole process probably took place about 8 000 to 9 000 years ago .(ie 6 000BC to 7 000BC) .

As I have said earlier, amber was being traded all over Europe from time immemorial, from the Baltic and the North Sea area.
It is also assumed that the Doggerlanders were seafarers, and perhaps very able seafarers (you need to be when hunting whales).

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Which is why the repopulation of England and Ireland proceeded so rapidly . The Minoans had ships and knew where all the mineral deposits were .
These countries were being repopulated by the refugees from Doggerland, and by pre-Celtic tribes from Southern France and Iberia.

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Willer's ideas about Atlantis....hmmm.... he is distorting Plato's acount to fit his theory. That happens always when people think they found 'their' Atlantis...

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Geomancy .
The western feng-shui . Not a well-known fact .
There is an extensive and well-developed western geomancy directly derived from the Etruscans via the Romans . The Greek version derived from the Minoans .
All cathedrals , without exception , were built according to these principles .
A whole plethora of rules about ratios , alignment with magnetic poles , etc , etc .
Most good architects are well aware of them , and keep to them . They usually make sense , and clients insist on them .
This whole geomancy thing is controversial, to say the least.

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Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2009 - 07:46 PM.


#163    Abramelin

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 01:31 PM

Br Cornelius, why don't you start a thread about "Sundaland"??

I for one would be very interested in what you have dug up during the years; I understand it is something of a pet topic for you.


#164    Abramelin

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

I already posted this in another thread, http://www.unexplain...c=176033&st=165, but I thought it would be ok to repost it again, here.



"Dear Dr. Peiser:

I was pleased to read the May 31, 2001 extract taken from Edward A. Bryant's
new book TSUNAMI: THE UNDERRATED HAZARD. For many years I have been a
proponent of the historical and anthropological evidence indicating a
maritime seafaring people from America, that built megalithic type tombs and
structures, discovered and inhabited parts of coastal Europe about 7000
years ago. However, a question has remained in my mind even though evidence
gathered by Dr. William Fitzheau of the Smithsonian Institute in 1980, and
Erich Brinch Petersen of the Danish National Museum indicate American
Maritime Archaic people probably migrated to Europe at least 7200 years ago.
I have always questioned how the Maritime Archaic, or Red Paint People as
they were called by the American anthropologist Dr. Moorhead, were able to
get a foothold in a Europe composed of folks with a different complexion,
culture, and competing for similar resources. I know the Norsemen or Vikings
tried to colonize America for at least 200 years without success and were
eventually stopped by Native Americans. Moreover, Norse technology in AD 800
-1000 was superior to the Native American's as well as the earlier Maritime
Archaic technology. Until now I have wondered how the Red Paints could
colonize even a few sights on the European coast successfully considering
the Maritime Archaic in Europe, like the Vikings in America, must have been
terribly outnumbered. Evidence from excavations in Nuilliak Cove Labrador,
Vedbaek Norway, Port au Cvhoix Newfoundland, Teviec Brittany, L'Anse Amour
Newfoundland, and Muge Portugal all indicate the communities were probably
populated by Red Paint People. The oldest Maritime Archaic sight in Europe
is Teviec prospering about 7200 years ago, off the coast of Brittany in
France, and the artifacts, method of burial, artistic designs, and evidence
of shamanistic rituals of the Maritime Archaic in Europe are amazingly
similar to the other Red Paint sights in America.


The purpose of this correspondence is not to argue the merits of the Red
Paint People's claim to Europe, but instead to use information from Edward
A. Bryant's new book and answer my previously unanswered question. He
writes, "One of the more disturbing accounts has been compiled from these
legends by Edith and Alexander Tollmann of the University of Vienna, who
believe that a comet circling the sun fragmented into seven large bodies
that crashed into the world's oceans 8,200 ± 200 years ago. This age is
based on radiocarbon dates from Vietnam, Australia and Europe. The impacts
generated an atmospheric fireball that globally affected society. This was
followed by a nuclear winter characterised by global cooling. More
significantly, enormous tsunami swept across coastal plains and, if the
legends are to be believed, overwashed the centre of continents. The latter
phenomenon, if true, most likely was associated with the splash from the
impacts rather than with conventional tsunami run-up. Massive floods then
occurred across continents. The event may well have an element of truth.
Figure 8.9 plots the location of the seven impact sites derived from
geological evidence and legends. Two of these sites, in the Tasman and North
Seas, have been identified as having mega-tsunami events around this time.
The North Sea impact centre corresponds with the location of the Storegga
slides described in Chapter 6. Here, the main tsunami took place 7,950 ±190
years ago."


If the before mentioned information in Bryant's book is correct it would
explain why the Red Paints did not face a formidable European population
opposing their coastal colonization. In fact the coastal European population
would have been washed away by the results of a comet's North Sea impacting
tsunami 700 years before the Red Paints discovered Europe. Also if the
actions of New Zealand Aboriginal Coastal tribes surviving a comet's
resulting tsunami in AD 1178, can be superimposed on those Europeans
surviving the resulting North Sea tsunami around 7950 years ago the
Europeans would probably have avoided the coast as did the New Zealand
Aboriginals for hundreds of years. Thus, allowing the Red Paints to colonize
without much opposition, and build their fragile coastal communities along
with their sturdy megaliths, the origons of which subsequently frustrate
future generations of historians.


Sincerely,

Worth F. Crouch
(Talako)
Society of Choctaw Astrobiologists"


http://abob.libs.uga...c/cc061301.html


In this thread I have been talking about the "Fomorians" of Irish legend as possible descendents of the refugees of Doggerland, http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3113889 ("The Fomorians are however described as dark haired and dark toned creatures").

But maybe they did indeed come from the Americas soon after the end of the last ice age, and where whiped out by the later pre-Celtic peoples, around 5000 BC (as described in the Irish "Book of Conquests/Invasions"), and so we fail to find any genetic links to native Americans in present-day European DNA, despite some exchange of genes that took place between them and the later Fir Bolg, Tuatha De Danaan and Milesians.

An interesting thought, I should say.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 March 2010 - 07:13 PM.


#165    Alien Being

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 October 2009 - 11:30 AM, said:

No, sorry, I don't get it...

I know the flooding of the Black Sea may have been much less catastrophic than prevously thought by Ryan and Pitman, and to quote something I posted here earlier, people didn't have to 'run for the hills'.

But the Storregga Slide which I have mentioned ad nauseum must have been a reallly catastrophic event for the people living on Doggerland.

You must not forget, Doggerland was flat as a pancake, with maybe only the present Doggers Bank sticking out from the suface as a low undulating hill. The tsunami that resulted from the Storregga Slide was huge, one of the largest ever, and must have whiped Doggerland clean.

It is recorded as a Mega-tusaumi event.

Many sicentists believe the volume of water would have lowered the land level of Doggerland so that it never recovered.





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