847 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Fluffybunny, on 11 April 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

Just a miscalculation regarding which thread went first...it isn't any kind of purposeful change to the other topic title. I can change the title to anything anyone wishes.

Fluffybunny,

Since the larger thread was about Doggerland and the one with the sensationalist title was about a documentary dealing with Doggerland, it
would make more sense, IMO, to maintain the title from the larger thread. Just my 2 cents.

Edit to add: Evidently it got changed while I was posting. Thanks Fluffybunny, much appreciated.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 11 April 2010 - 02:11 AM.

[Fluffybunny]

There is no need for the kind of outburst and namecalling for something like this; and I do not appreciate the rude "idiot" comment. It is not tolerated towards other members, and certainly will not be tolerated towards staff. A simple note sent to a Mod pointing out a needed change can be dealt with right away, no problem...calling people an idiot(Who are spending their free time trying to help people out) for such matters just isn't acceptable. I spend several hours a day fulfilling peoples request (like merging this thread, solving technical problems, stopping spammers, refereeing arguments... ) and I don't get paid to do so, so slaps in the face like that just are not appreciated.

[Alien Being]

Fluffybunny, on 11 April 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

Just a miscalculation regarding which thread went first...it isn't any kind of purposeful change to the other topic title. I can change the title to anything anyone wishes.

This is no good lol

You've moved my Stone Age Atlantis Thread to this one and people wont realise now there is a documentry on tonight at 7pm on the National Geographic Channel in the UK called Stone Age Atlantis which has been investigating the Doggerland region in the North Sea.

They have evidence the whole region went down in one go not from rising sea levels at the end of the last ice age. They also have evidence of settlements under the water.

If anybody misses it their website says it will be repeated twice next week.

[Abramelin]

Qoais, on 10 April 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

Because in the other   thread the title is Doggerland - Not Atlantis

I will reply to the posts as they showed up in sequence:

the original title was "Doggerland and other lost lands", and subtitle was 'Not Atlantis".

And that subtitle made me rather happy...

[Abramelin]

Alien Being, on 10 April 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

I thought a fresh thread to make everyone aware on the documentry was needed.

If you miss it its repeated twice throughout next week according to Nat Geos website.

Doggerland is a fascinating topic and I have a feeling about this one that makes me think we're on the verge of something big like we are about to find out anceint Britain started Western Civilization not the Greeks.

If you Google 'Stone Age Atlantis", you will find other sites that actually mention what will be shown: finds off the coast of south England, near the Isle of Wight.

I already posted about this (even a video), and I think you won't have to hold your breath in expectation about it..

You suggested earlier you already started a thread about it, but up to now I cannot find it.

The idea that PERHAPS the Western Megalithic started there has also been discussed here; it was Jean Deruelle, amongst others, who talked about it first; I even translated a document (pdf) from French to English.

Btw, a page back I showed submerged megalithic structures below sea level near Orkney (which must have been close to the northern part of Doggerland.

[Abramelin]

Fluffybunny, on 11 April 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

Just a miscalculation regarding which thread went first...it isn't any kind of purposeful change to the other topic title. I can change the title to anything anyone wishes.

A miscalculation... ok.

For a minute I thought Alien Being was one of the admins here.

[Abramelin]

Fluffybunny, on 11 April 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

There is no need for the kind of outburst and namecalling for something like this; and I do not appreciate the rude "idiot" comment. It is not tolerated towards other members, and certainly will not be tolerated towards staff. A simple note sent to a Mod pointing out a needed change can be dealt with right away, no problem...calling people an idiot(Who are spending their free time trying to help people out) for such matters just isn't acceptable. I spend several hours a day fulfilling peoples request (like merging this thread, solving technical problems, stopping spammers, refereeing arguments... ) and I don't get paid to do so, so slaps in the face like that just are not appreciated.

I did send a note to the admins (two in fact), but like I said, I got the feeling Alien Being was one of the admins here, and did the merging him/herself.

And the 'idiots' must be seen in that light...

[Abramelin]

Alien Being, on 11 April 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is no good lol

You've moved my Stone Age Atlantis Thread to this one and people wont realise now there is a documentry on tonight at 7pm on the National Geographic Channel in the UK called Stone Age Atlantis which has been investigating the Doggerland region in the North Sea.

They have evidence the whole region went down in one go not from rising sea levels at the end of the last ice age. They also have evidence of settlements under the water.

If anybody misses it their website says it will be repeated twice next week.

That evidence has been shown here ad nauseum, but I highlighted the important part of your post, so no one can miss it.

EDIT:

Next Showing:   Tuesday 13 April at 7:00PM - National Geographic Channel
Repeats: Friday 16 April at 2:00PM - National Geographic , Saturday 17 April at 3:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2010 - 12:45 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 12 April 2010 - 12:35 PM, said:

That evidence has been shown here ad nauseum, but I highlighted the important part of your post, so no one can miss it.

EDIT:

Next Showing:   Tuesday 13 April at 7:00PM - National Geographic Channel
Repeats: Friday 16 April at 2:00PM - National Geographic , Saturday 17 April at 3:00PM - National Geographic Channel

Well, Alien Being, I must admit I did't see that documentary on National Geographic - and it wasn't announced either -  but I live in Holland, and so maybe we here must wait a while longer.

But... it appears to me that whatever you saw during that documentary didn't impress you much, or else you would certainly have posted about it.

Much like I expected.

No Atlantis here, sorry.

[Alien Being]

Abramelin, on 12 April 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

Well, Alien Being, I must admit I did't see that documentary on National Geographic - and it wasn't announced either -  but I live in Holland, and so maybe we here must wait a while longer.

But... it appears to me that whatever you saw during that documentary didn't impress you much, or else you would certainly have posted about it.

Much like I expected.

No Atlantis here, sorry.

I'm back.

No I'm not an admin and I kicked up a fuss when they merged my thread into this one. I made the mistake of thinking I could watch Stone Age Atlantis when I wanted to on cable but strangly the film still isnt on the playback list.

I've not seen it but its on tomorrow evening at 7pm again. Anybody found it on Youtube?

Edited by Alien Being, 12 April 2010 - 07:14 PM.

[Abramelin]

Alien Being, on 12 April 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'm back.

No I'm not an admin and I kicked up a fuss when they merged my thread into this one. I made the mistake of thinking I could watch Stone Age Atlantis when I wanted to on cable but strangly the film still isnt on the playback list.

I've not seen it but its on tomorrow evening at 7pm again. Anybody found it on Youtube?

What you think?? I tried to find it on YouTube, but it wasnt there..

We will have to wait a couple of days, but I can tell you now... it will not be what YOU had hoped for.


Forget about `Atlantis`, ..........  instead... focus on some unknown submerged area of land, also known as ..`Doggerland´.

[Abramelin]

I guess the documentary wasn't that spectacular, or else someone would have posted about it.

The Dutch version of National Geographic has not even announced the documentary, so I didn't see it, but I will as soon as I have it watched here in Holland.


==

OK, something else......


To my surprize I found out there are still active volcanoes in Germany, and they are in the Eifel region ( south of Bonn). And these volcanoes may have had an influence on Northern Europe (and thus, on Doggerland), right after the end of the last ice age..


Abstract: Around 12,920 years BP, during the final phases of the Alleröd warm period, the Laacher See-
volcano erupted explosively and catastrophically. This eruption was one of the most significant and largest
volcanic events of the Late Pleistocene in the Northern Hemisphere and it covered an area upwards of
1300 km in lava (ignimbrite) and ash deposits more than 10 m thick in places. The eruption column may
have reached a height of up to 40 km and ash was deposited over vast swaths of Europe. The occurrence of
Laacher See tephra (LST) in archaeological stratigraphies has, for more than fifty years, served as a useful
chronostratigraphic marker for the Late Glacial. However, it has not so far been considered whether the
Laacher See-eruption (LSE) may also have had long-term impacts on contemporaneous forager societies
and their cultural evolution. Based on calibrated  C14 dates, mapping of the tephra layers in relation to
the occurrence of Late Glacial techno-complexes and a technological-quantitative analysis of Late Glacial
projectile points, this paper offers a new hypothesis suggesting that the origin of the well known Bromme
culture of Southern Scandinavia and the rather more enigmatic Perstunian of eastern Europe is directly
and causally related to the LSE. Despite the fact that measurable climate change in the wake of the
LSE appears to have been minor, this event seemingly triggered far-reaching demographic fluctuations,
which precipitated archaeologically visible material culture change. In particular, it is shown here that
the emergence of the Bromme culture and the Perstunien goes hand in hand with the loss of bow-and-
arrow technology. Furthermore, it is suggested tentatively that other areas, some of which were rather far
removed from the Laacher See-volcano itself (e.g., the British Isles), may also have been affected. Finally,
a number of research strategies and recommendations are made which could test, further substantiate or
falsify the hypothesis put forward here.

Keywords: Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Late Glacial, Bromme culture, Perstunian, Laacher See-
eruption, Projectile points, Material culture change

http://www.urgeschic...lung16_mail.pdf




Laacher See

() or Laach Lake (in English) is a caldera lake and a potentially active volcano, in Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany, situated close to the cities of Koblenz (24 km), and Bonn (37 km), and closest to the towns Andernach (8 km), and Mayen (11 km). The caldera lake lies just 8 km from the river Rhine at Aldernach. Just like the nearby 'Wehrer Kessel' volcano and Rieden volcano, the Laacher See volcano forms a volcanic caldera in the Eifel mountain range. It is part of the area called "East Eifel volcanic field".

The great Eifel lake takes its name from the Old High German word "lacha" which in turn is derived from Latin "lacus" as English "lake". Thus the name literally means "Lake of the Lake" similar to the "Loch Lochy" in the Scottish Highlands with the same meaning.

The lake lies 259 m above sea level, is 8 km in circumference, and surrounded by a ring of high hills. The water is blue, very cold and bitter to the taste. The lake has no natural outlet and so the water level changes considerably due to evaporation and rainfall conditions. On the western side lies the Benedictine monastery of Maria Laach Abbey (), founded in 1093 by Henry II of Laach of the House of Luxembourg, first count palatine of the Rhine who has had his castle opposite to the monastery above the eastern lakeside.

The caldera was formed after the colossal Laacher See eruption dated to 12'900 years ago[1][2][3]. The remaining crust collapsed into the empty magma chamber below, probably two or three days after the eruption.[4] With an estimated 6 km? of magma erupted,[5] this colossal eruption had a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, was one and a half times larger than the colossal 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Philippines) which also had a VEI of 6; and six times larger than the massive 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens (United States) had a VEI of 5.

Tephra deposits from the eruption dammed the Rhine, creating a lake. When the dam broke, an outburst flood swept downstream, leaving deposits as far away as Bonn.[5]

The Laacher eruption concides with the onset of the abrupt Younger Dryas reglaciation, which brought renewed very cold conditions to the northern hemisphere from 12.9 to 11.6 ka. However, any relationship between this climate change and the eruption is speculative; eruptions of the size of the Laacher See eruption usually cause only short-term global cooling.

Remains of this eruption can be found all over Europe and the tephra is often used for dating of sediments.[6][7] A number of unique minerals can be found in the region,[8] and quarries mine the stone as a building material.

The Laacher See is a potentially active volcano, proven by seismic activities and heavy thermal anomalies under the lake. Carbon dioxide gas from magma still bubbles up at the southeastern shore,[9] and scientists believe that a new eruption could happen at any time, which, today, would be a disaster beyond all description, especially considering that Germany is a heavily populated country and this caldera lies just 8 km from the Rhine at Aldernach. If the new eruption were comparable in size to its previous one and were to reach the Rhine which as a waterway and as a heavily populated basin, links many cities and many major industrial centers on its shores up to its mouth near Rotterdam in Holland - these places downtream and also upstream the river could potentially be at a risk of flooding, loss of life and ruin. It would also be economic disaster of global proportions as Germany is the richest country in Europe, dubbed as "Europe's economic engine", and the fourth richest in the world - it is the world's second largest exporter and second largest importer of goods. Especially with economic globalization and interdependence, any major damage and disruption to Germany?s economy and also the already integrated economies of Europe, would possibly lead to a worldwide economic depression.

http://www.tutorgig.com/ed/Laacher_See



The Laacher See volcano is the red dot on the next map:

Edited by Abramelin, 13 April 2010 - 07:05 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

The caldera was formed after the colossal Laacher See eruption dated to 12'900 years ago[1][2][3]. The remaining crust collapsed into the empty magma chamber below, probably two or three days after the eruption.[4] With an estimated 6 km? of magma erupted,[5] this colossal eruption had a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, was one and a half times larger than the colossal 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Philippines) which also had a VEI of 6; and six times larger than the massive 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens (United States) had a VEI of 5.

For the sake of accuracy, Abramelin, it should be noted that anything greater than 1 KM³ and less than 10 KM³ would be a VEI 5 and NOT VEI 6 as the above quote claims. It is, however, an interesting eruption.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 13 April 2010 - 11:10 PM.

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 13 April 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

For the sake of accuracy, Abramelin, it should be noted that anything greater than 1 KM³ and less than 10 KM³ would be a VEI 5 and NOT VEI 6 as the above quote claims. It is, however, an interesting eruption.

cormac

Yes, that's right. Maybe just a typo?

I checked the link I quoted from, and there's another link on that webpage giving examples for these classifications, and the Laacher See Eruption is a VEI 5 according to the table.


http://www.tutorgig....plosivity_Index


I agree it's an interesting eruption, and the reason I posted it is because it may have influenced the movement of people to Doggerland, some 10,000 BC.

It's a pitty the first link is to a pdf in German (and I'm glad they added an abstract in English, which I posted), but they mention a couple of cultures I have never heard of before.

The eruption must have obstructed the river Rhine with all kinds of debri and ash, and it's effect will certainly have been felt in the North Sea area.


EDIT:

A correction: I placed the Laacher See Volcano in the wrong place on the map in my former post; it is actually located west of Koblenz (it's "B" in the next map):



..and it's the red cross in this map:

Edited by Abramelin, 14 April 2010 - 01:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

I found an old (2007) article in "Der Spiegel" (and excuses for my translation):


Professional consensus of a possible eruption in the Eifel

The experts agree that there will be eruptions in the Eifel mountains again. But no one can say when: "Perhaps even millennia from now, but it can also be in a few months so far," says Hinzen. Probably the Eifel are embarking on a new phase of activity, says the volcanologist Hans-Ulrich Schmincke by the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in Kiel, who has researched the Eifel volcanoes for years.

The resting phase ended abruptly 12,900 years ago when there was a huge eruption in the Eifel. "Back then there was probably similar composure as it is today," said Schmincke. "The Ur-Rhinelander were certainly not expecting a volcanic eruption, it had been dormant for the last 100,000 years." But one day magma came in contact with ground water. The shock wave from the explosion snapped all the trees in the area around like matchsticks. Ash shot high and reached 30 km with the southwest wind into the direction of Sweden. West Germany was clouded in a gray ash rain.

Lava dammed the river Rhine near Andernach, Koblenz, the present-day region stand several meters under water. Days later, the lava dam bursted and a tidal wave shot up to the Netherlands, enormous mud flows and floods buried the Rhine Valley. Prehistoric tools and skeletons in the gravel layers show that the ancient Rhinelanders were surprised by the disaster. After the magma reservoir had emptied at the site of the eruption, the floor collapsed - creating the present lake of the Laacher See.

http://www.spiegel.d...,466051,00.html

Edited by Abramelin, 14 April 2010 - 02:42 PM.