847 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Yeah, that's the spirit, just remain silent.

Well, here's an representation to recreate Doggerland:

http://strangemaps.f...ea_drainage.jpg

Maybe we Dutch will actually manage to do that, some time in the future.

[Harte]

Sceptical believer, on 06 October 2009 - 05:59 PM, said:

Im hoping that sooner or later, TAS will decide to actually start investigating the Texas Gulf coast.  After every major storm or Hurricane. McFadden Beach is littered with points, scrapers, and other artifacts.  

I read sometime back that Robert Ballard plans the Gulf Coast for his next area of underwater exploration.

I don't remember when, though.  Could be he's already done it by now, or maybe he's in the process right now.

Harte

[Abramelin]

Do not distract this guy/girl from his/her obligation to contribute to something about Doggerland, OK?

LOLOL

And if you ask me - and I know you didn't - then Robert Ballard should start exploring Doggerland or Sundaland.

THOSE are really huge areas that were submerged after the last ice age.

If he wants to find anything of an ice age or post-ice age civilization, then he should start there.

[Sceptical believer]

sorry not staying silent.  in fact I have been pouring over data about doggerland.   oh.. and I said it touched on my research.  Im pretty interested in Gaffneys idea that doggerland could be the key to the mesolithic culture.    

also trying to find whether the Occupation sites in Northumberland and the Isle of wight, might have had a bearing on the inhabitants of Doggerland.  especially since they would have been contemporary's of the Doggerland population.  

of course I keeping find stuff that raises more questions.  such as mesolithic Burials or the lack there of. and the theory that such Burials might be underwater(Doggerland) or  the remains placed in boats.  like the burial at Møllegabet.

though some seem to think this wasnt so much a burial as a clan warning to trespassers.

also I wanted to look into the climate models for that area, during that time.   NOAA paleo climate  

500 metres off the coast of Tyneside, scuba-diving archaeologists have found evidence of an undersea early Mesolithic settlement that could be 10,000 years old. Another more recent late Mesolithic site was found nearby. The finds included a flint arrowhead and cutting implements with serrated edges. Penny Spikins who is leading the international submerged prehistoric landscapes project said, "Archaeologists thought that the sites left by people who lived 5-10,000 years ago had simply been lost to the sea. But our finds could change our understanding of the earliest occupation of the British Isles. They open up a whole landscape under the water, a new frontier for archaeology."

a petrified forest in Mounts Bay, Cornwalan off of county wicklow.  

I like to read your posts and check out your links. which is why i hop on then off again.

[Abramelin]

Is that all you found? Jesus F. Christ, I could have told you all about it.

So, to be short, you haven't found anything substantial, and nothing new.

What I posted only costed me a day.

OK, forget about it. I will try to make this thread live by what *I* post.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Regarding the absence of a North European flood legend, could it have been replaced by that of the Biblical flood? If a minority people have one flood legend and the dominant culture has another, the details of the minority's flood legend might gradually become confused with the majority's, until it ceased to be distinguishable.

Well, it's a thought.

[Abramelin]

Yes, that's certainly just a thought, and a very good one too.

Maybe there is something like a flood legend, but hidden away in some kind of weird mythology.

I couldn't find it.

[The_Spartan]

Abramelin, on 06 October 2009 - 06:57 PM, said:

Yeah, that's the spirit, just remain silent.

Well, here's an representation to recreate Doggerland:

http://strangemaps.f...ea_drainage.jpg

Maybe we Dutch will actually manage to do that, some time in the future.

That is a a beauty!

was it from some old popular science or popular mechanics mag  on  the old times?

[The_Spartan]

just a doubt

since the similar flood stories are associated with the civilizations/cultures associated with the Indo-European linguistic family, perhaps

the origin point of the mother language can also be the point or area where the flood/deluge occurred.

[Abramelin]

The Spartan, on 07 October 2009 - 03:21 AM, said:

That is a a beauty!

was it from some old popular science or popular mechanics mag  on  the old times?

Yes, it looks that way:

http://strangemaps.w...-of-doggerland/

[TheSearcher]

The Spartan, on 07 October 2009 - 03:30 AM, said:

just a doubt

since the similar flood stories are associated with the civilizations/cultures associated with the Indo-European linguistic family, perhaps

the origin point of the mother language can also be the point or area where the flood/deluge occurred.

In this case that would be Doggerland then? I mean nearly all cultures, associated with the Indo-European linguistic family, do seem to have  at least one legend / myth about a flood or deluge, it would stand to reason that the source might be the same. The tsunami caused by the Storregga Slide, would in my opinion, be an event impressive enough to create such a legend with all the survivors that saw it happen, since it would have been quite sudden as well.

[Abramelin]

TheSearcher, on 07 October 2009 - 12:26 PM, said:

In this case that would be Doggerland then? I mean nearly all cultures, associated with the Indo-European linguistic family, do seem to have  at least one legend / myth about a flood or deluge, it would stand to reason that the source might be the same. The tsunami caused by the Storregga Slide, would in my opinion, be an event impressive enough to create such a legend with all the survivors that saw it happen, since it would have been quite sudden as well.

The only legends about floods, submerged cities and/or submerged lands I could find are those of Ys, Lyonesse and maybe Avalon.

But even if these places really did exist one time (and the Scilly Islands were once really joined into a large island), then they were located somewhere in the Channel, either of the coast of France or South-England, and much later in history.

I think that if there are legends about that event to be found, then we will have to look to old Scandanavian (here: Danish and Norse) legends.
The Scandanavians may be the descendents of the people that lived there 11,000 years ago, or they may have met them and shared stories with them.


There are also the Frisians, a Germanic people that once occupied the North Sea coast from Belgium up to Jutland in Denmark. And they were there from like 800 (?) BC. I read a lot of their history yesterday evening, but whatever they have of legends, most of them are closely related to what the other Germanic tribes have to say, and not one escpecially about some ancient flood in the North Sea area.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2009 - 02:39 PM.

[Abramelin]

Well, all hope is not lost (concerning mythology that is..)....

In the Irish Lebor Gabála Érenn, or The Book of Invasions ( http://en.wikipedia...._Gabála_Érenn ) there is mention of an 'evil' kind of people who inhabited Ireland, the Fomorians.

Now read this:

Three hundred years after the Flood, Partholón, who, like the Gaels, is a descendant of Noah's son Japheth, settles in Ireland with his three sons and their people. After ten years of peace war breaks out with the Fomorians, a race of evil seafarers led by Cichol Gricenchos

And:

The followers of Partholon were said to be the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathrún Céitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by Cíocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. It is possible that this is a memory of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers giving way to Neolithic farmers.[2] Partholon defeated Cíocal in the Battle of Magh Ithe, but all his people later died of plague. (  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians  ).


And a bit about the possible etymology if their name:


The word fomóire is believed to derive from Old Irish fo muire (Modern Irish faoi muire), "under the sea". This, combined with their association with glass towers in the western ocean, suggests a connection with icebergs. However the mór element may derive from a word meaning "terror", whose Anglo-Saxon cognate "maere" survives in English "nightmare", but not in "morbid" which instead comes from the latin, all from the Proto-IndoEuropean word *mor : "to rub, pound, wear away". However, Mac Bain holds that there are phonetic inconsistencies with both these theories that would prevent derivation of the long ó in the morpheme "-mór" from "muire, mora" ("sea") or from "mor, mar" (terror, death). His educated opinion leaves the conclusions of Zimmer fomóiri > fo-mór "sub-magnus" (giants, small? giants, nearly? giants, huge people?).[1]

[Br Cornelius]

Stephen Oppenheimer has already made a compelling case for all the major flood legends having a common physical origin with refugees from Sundaland. For me the case is closed on this one.Common legendary and linguistic links can be traced all the way up to Northern Siberia. It seems that if there was culture up in the dry doggerland, the harsh conditions would have restricted its sophistication. The evidence points to the Sundaland culture been socially very sophisticated and technologically advanced. This might explain why the Sundaland flood  legends dominated over any northern european legends.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 07 October 2009 - 03:30 PM.

[The_Spartan]

Br Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 03:24 PM, said:

Stephen Oppenheimer has already made a compelling case for all the major flood legends having a common physical origin with refugees from Sundaland. For me the case is closed on this one. It seems that if there was culture up in the dry doggerland, the harsh conditions would have restricted its sophistication. This might explain why the Sundaland flood legends dominated over any northern european legends.

Br Cornelius

i knew that Br. Cornelius would be posting soon with his sundaland in Indonesia theory (not his but Oppenheimer's)!!