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Doggerland


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#376    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 06:19 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 April 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

No, I am not leaving that out, but it cannot be part of the core of any myth, right?

The core of nothing is nothing, I got that long ago, thank, you , lol.

I just think if any myth was created, then it changed so much that it is hard to use it to pinpoint in the direction of anything Doggerland.

You must not forget that Doggerland didn't just sink quite fast over the millennia by rising sea levels and isostatic rebound, it actually got flushed by a huge tsunami. Things legends are made of, wouldn't you say so too?

I never claimed it could be the part of the core of a myth, just that it was as valid a possibility as that of any hypothesized myth.

Myths and legends are, by and large, created by a sizeable population of people over extended periods of time. Currently there is no evidence of a sizeable population of people inhabiting Doggerland for an extended period of time and more specifically, during the time of the Storegga Slide. At best, we can surmise that there were groups of hunter-gatherers following animal migrations and only settling in an area for a brief period of time. It's just as likely that anyone living there during the Storegga Slide was eliminated with much of the area and that nothing was passed down in myth and legend.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#377    Abramelin

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 08:45 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 April 2010 - 06:19 PM, said:

I never claimed it could be the part of the core of a myth, just that it was as valid a possibility as that of any hypothesized myth.

Myths and legends are, by and large, created by a sizeable population of people over extended periods of time. Currently there is no evidence of a sizeable population of people inhabiting Doggerland for an extended period of time and more specifically, during the time of the Storegga Slide. At best, we can surmise that there were groups of hunter-gatherers following animal migrations and only settling in an area for a brief period of time. It's just as likely that anyone living there during the Storegga Slide was eliminated with much of the area and that nothing was passed down in myth and legend.

cormac


No, you are wrong: there were many people living there, and that just by the many finds of tools on the bottom of the North Sea, and by it's very hospitable topography.

The idea that there were not many people living in Doggerland is based on nothing but it being a frozen tundra. Now they know it wasn't anything like that at all. It was surrounded by countries that were cold and barren during winter months, yes, but not Doggerland.

Now imagine this: we live happily at Doggerland. Then we go hunt seals in Scotland during winter time. We return to where we grew up, Doggerland, and all we find is mud and sea and debry.

What would you think we feel? We will be sad because our families that stayed behind are gone, drowned. Eventually we talk to other people who watched what happened when we were away, they tell us of a giant wave that whiped the country clean, taking everybody and everything with it.

Don't you think that would be incorporated in new legends??

You also seem to underestimate oral culture. Well, I know elders (in the Amazon basin) who do their utter best to tell the youngsters about their experiences, and they repeat what they know untill those youngsters are able to repeat what they said exactly. They test them, and they will go on repeating their accounts and stories untill these youngsters know it by heart. They use songs, words, symbols, and even drugs, and they don't give up easily.

We westerners have no idea about oral culture, we now all depend on what we read in books, newspapers and on the internet, watch on tv, and so on.

Things were very much different back then.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 April 2010 - 09:17 PM.


#378    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:19 PM

Quote

I'd suggest Sumeria was the result of interaction between all races of the time but it was probably the flooding of the black sea and the start of the Ubaid period that led to the height of sumerian culture.

Evidence would suggest otherwise, as the flooding of the Black Sea appears to have happened c.7400 BC and was of a more moderate nature. As Tell al-Ubaid and the culture named after it date from c.2000 years after the event (circa 5300 BC) and are located in Southern Mesopotamia, there is no evidence of a connection between the Black Sea and the Ubaidians/Sumerians.

Quote

That's because, according to the new study, the Black Sea's pre-flood water levels were significantly higher than Ryan's study suggested. As a result, there may have been much less water cascading through the Bosporus and onto the exposed continental shelf surrounding the Black Sea.

The ages of the shell fossils detailed in Giosan's report hint that the pre-flood sea surface was only 95 feet (30 meters) lower than it is today. Columbia's Ryan, by contrast, suggests the Black Sea's rise has been at least 150 feet (50 meters) since reconnecting with the Mediterranean some 9,400 years ago.

Source

Quote

Does it help if I tell you the closest meaning is 'bear'?

Not really, as the bear was a totemic animal amongst many cultures. The word “berserk” appears to originate with this idea.

Quote

Robin Hood on the other hand was a legend that grew out of the green man tradition that was practised by a large group of druids in Sherwood forest.

There are many in England, professional and laymen alike, who would disagree with that. But you should already know that.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#379    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:45 PM

Quote

No, you are wrong: there were many people living there…

And your evidence would be what? Hunter-gatherers usually exist is small enough groups to ensure their mobility, should the need to move at a moments notice arise.

Quote

The idea that there were not many people living in Doggerland is based on nothing but it being a frozen tundra.

You’re assuming I’m basing this on an outdated position. I’m not. I’m basing this on lack of evidence that there was a sizeable population located in Doggerland. “Because there were people there” doesn’t automatically equate to them having a large population or having left myths and legends about Doggerland’s destruction.

Quote

We return to where we grew up, Doggerland, and all we find is mud and sea and debry.

You’re assuming that Doggerland wasn’t completely covered by water at this point. The jury is still out.

Quote

You also seem to underestimate oral culture.

Not really. But just to ask, how many legends told by those elders have lasted several thousand years?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#380    SlimJim22

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:57 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 April 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

Evidence would suggest otherwise, as the flooding of the Black Sea appears to have happened c.7400 BC and was of a more moderate nature. As Tell al-Ubaid and the culture named after it date from c.2000 years after the event (circa 5300 BC) and are located in Southern Mesopotamia, there is no evidence of a connection between the Black Sea and the Ubaidians/Sumerians.

Source

Not really, as the bear was a totemic animal amongst many cultures. The word “berserk” appears to originate with this idea.

There are many in England, professional and laymen alike, who would disagree with that. But you should already know that.

cormac

Well professional and laymen alike are not readily gonna admit, if indeed they know, the truth about Britains mysterious heritage. It goes back pretty far with even the name allegedly coming from the Trojan, Brutus. There is the Tuatha deDannan and Merlin. We know that druidism was a continent wide theology stretching as far as the Balkans. The Haethen religion also contains a lot of mysteries that could have parrallels with other cultural myths. Odin being one eyed and the Asgard tree and all that is fairly original but there are commonalities.

I was actually thinking of the bear in regards to a couple of things. They are connected to the mysteries so feel to discount them immdeiately. The bear is the Pleaides as linked sailing, farming and now I am thinking bloodlines. It also has connections to the Goddess Artemis, who I identify with Innana. Arthur - Artemis? One I read the other day that I like was Excalibur and Calabria as in the monks who helped found the original Oredr of Sion. You see it is always worth thinking about or thinking as an initiate would.

As I said I will have to support my point about the Black sea but I see connections in burial practices of chieftans, perhaps. Then again burial practices are fairly uniform globally. I.e. bury the kings in tombs with possessions. This was done in Dilmun if not Sumeria. The other theory is that bronze age metal work began mucg=h earlier around the Black sea and into Anatolia and it was the Dragon kings who wore armour of green tinged bronze. They would then being the conquerors of Sumeria and hence where we get myths about dragons and serpents. It is only one theory I am considering by the way.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#381    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 10:29 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 27 April 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Well professional and laymen alike are not readily gonna admit, if indeed they know, the truth about Britains mysterious heritage. It goes back pretty far with even the name allegedly coming from the Trojan, Brutus. There is the Tuatha deDannan and Merlin. We know that druidism was a continent wide theology stretching as far as the Balkans. The Haethen religion also contains a lot of mysteries that could have parrallels with other cultural myths. Odin being one eyed and the Asgard tree and all that is fairly original but there are commonalities.

I was actually thinking of the bear in regards to a couple of things. They are connected to the mysteries so feel to discount them immdeiately. The bear is the Pleaides as linked sailing, farming and now I am thinking bloodlines. It also has connections to the Goddess Artemis, who I identify with Innana. Arthur - Artemis? One I read the other day that I like was Excalibur and Calabria as in the monks who helped found the original Oredr of Sion. You see it is always worth thinking about or thinking as an initiate would.

As I said I will have to support my point about the Black sea but I see connections in burial practices of chieftans, perhaps. Then again burial practices are fairly uniform globally. I.e. bury the kings in tombs with possessions. This was done in Dilmun if not Sumeria. The other theory is that bronze age metal work began mucg=h earlier around the Black sea and into Anatolia and it was the Dragon kings who wore armour of green tinged bronze. They would then being the conquerors of Sumeria and hence where we get myths about dragons and serpents. It is only one theory I am considering by the way.

I think we're at an impasse here, Slim. I don't put much stock in mystical/metaphysical connections or comparative mythology. I see it all as seeing what one wishes to see.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#382    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 01:35 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 April 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

-1- And your evidence would be what? Hunter-gatherers usually exist is small enough groups to ensure their mobility, should the need to move at a moments notice arise.



-2- You're assuming I'm basing this on an outdated position. I'm not. I'm basing this on lack of evidence that there was a sizeable population located in Doggerland. "Because there were people there" doesn't automatically equate to them having a large population or having left myths and legends about Doggerland's destruction.



-3- You're assuming that Doggerland wasn't completely covered by water at this point. The jury is still out.



-4- Not really. But just to ask, how many legends told by those elders have lasted several thousand years?

cormac


-1- Evidence is in the number of tools they left; there were many. Another thing is not a real evidence, it's just that the land was the most hospitable land in the north of Europe after the end of the last ice age, and contrary towhat was always assumed before.

-2- True, no real evidence if you desire to forget about what was found. There were people there, yeah, many people as is being claimed by scientists. But what is many, eh?

-3-  Doggerland, or Dogger Bank, or Dogger Island, may have suffered much from the tsunami, but it is likely that it didn't submerge right after the tsunami. The tsunami did them in, but still, Dogger Island may have been above sea level long after that. But maybe just as a mud bank or a barren area.

-4- Read what I posted about the Lenapi and the Aboriginals.

And you are asking me now what I have been asking since the start of this thread: where are those legends that tell us about Doggerland??


#383    SlimJim22

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 01:58 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 April 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

I think we're at an impasse here, Slim. I don't put much stock in mystical/metaphysical connections or comparative mythology. I see it all as seeing what one wishes to see.

cormac

Fair enough Cormac. I was thinking about doing a thread on the validity of the mystery schools as an area of genuine study. What d'ya reckon? See we know they did exist, they are historical fact, the question is if they were anything more than a way of passing the time for old men or if they had a more important and secret purpose. Let me know if you think it a good idea as it is only worth doing if there is participation from both sides.

Mysteries that could be Doggerland:
Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey
Lochlain - I like this one
Atlantis - Woot woot dunno
Hyperborea - definitely a possibility
Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not
What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

Edited by SlimJim22, 28 April 2010 - 01:58 PM.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#384    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 03:29 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 28 April 2010 - 01:58 PM, said:

Mysteries that could be Doggerland:
Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey
Lochlain - I like this one
Atlantis - Woot woot dunno
Hyperborea - definitely a possibility
Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not
What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

Avalon may point to a now submerged area near Land's End, Cornwall: the Scilly Islands. It is known they were once joined into a larger island.

Lochlan....land of lakes, yep, it's my favorite.

Atlantis... nah, Doggerland wasn't anything like what Plato described.

Hyperborea.. true, it might be a possibility. Might..

Ragnarok... from what I have read online, it appears to point to what happened around 1500 BC in Europe, not 6100 BC and earlier.

Myths from Finland... you mean the Kalevala ?? Dunno, I have never read it.

And why do you think the refugees from Doggerland would travel all the way to Finland? I think it's more likely that they fled to the most nearby countries first. But yes, they could eventually have ended up in Finland.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 April 2010 - 03:31 PM.


#385    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 04:33 PM

I forgot to asnwer you abbout the Lenape myth, the Walam Olum:
I meantioned the Lenapi myth (Walam Olum) in connection with what I said about oral culture, but not because it has any relationship with Doggerland. Btw, some say it was a hoax, others say it could be authentic.


#386    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:04 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 28 April 2010 - 01:58 PM, said:

Fair enough Cormac. I was thinking about doing a thread on the validity of the mystery schools as an area of genuine study. What d'ya reckon? See we know they did exist, they are historical fact, the question is if they were anything more than a way of passing the time for old men or if they had a more important and secret purpose. Let me know if you think it a good idea as it is only worth doing if there is participation from both sides.

Mysteries that could be Doggerland:
Avalon - doubtful, more likely Anglessey
Lochlain - I like this one
Atlantis - Woot woot dunno
Hyperborea - definitely a possibility
Ragnarok - I think so but it is an awful long time ago to have lasted but if the myth is strong enough then why not
What are the myths of Finland? That's where I would set up home if I was a Dogger refugee

What's the Lenapi myth? Could that have any connection are you thinking if so what?

That's entirely up to you. Chances are, I won't be joining the conversation. A combination of "an old boys club" along with possibly obscure local religious rituals or observances is one thing, but a bunch of mystical/metaphysical hoodoo extending over many millenia and many cultures is just too much for me to swallow.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#387    Swede

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 April 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

I forgot to asnwer you abbout the Lenape myth, the Walam Olum:
I meantioned the Lenapi myth (Walam Olum) in connection with what I said about oral culture, but not because it has any relationship with Doggerland. Btw, some say it was a hoax, others say it could be authentic.

Abe - You are correct that Rafinesque's construct, the Walam Olum has been discounted. See below. Regular contributor piney, who is Lenape, holds the "work" in less than high esteem!

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Walam_Olum

.

Edited by Swede, 28 April 2010 - 05:15 PM.


#388    Swede

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:26 PM

Abe - Just an addendum in regards to the "survivability"/accuracy of oral traditions. The following two papers, while approaching the topic from different perspectives, are very well composed and reach similar conclusions. Hope you can find a way to access them.

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.
"Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record in Deep Time"
American Antiquity, Vol.65, No. 2. (April 2000) pp. 267-290

Mason, Ronald
"Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions"
American Antiquity, Vol.65, No.2 (April 2000), pp. 239-266

.

Edited by Swede, 28 April 2010 - 05:27 PM.


#389    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:33 PM

View PostSwede, on 28 April 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:

Abe - You are correct that Rafinesque's construct, the Walam Olum has been discounted. See below. Regular contributor piney, who is Lenape, holds the "work" in less than high esteem!

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Walam_Olum

.

But I also know not all agree with it being nothing but a hoax:

http://www.newagefra...php?topic=848.0

.... and the scroll down till you see the posts of a E.P. Grondine.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 April 2010 - 07:35 PM.


#390    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:49 PM

View PostSwede, on 28 April 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

Abe - Just an addendum in regards to the "survivability"/accuracy of oral traditions. The following two papers, while approaching the topic from different perspectives, are very well composed and reach similar conclusions. Hope you can find a way to access them.

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.
"Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record in Deep Time"
American Antiquity, Vol.65, No. 2. (April 2000) pp. 267-290

Mason, Ronald
"Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions"
American Antiquity, Vol.65, No.2 (April 2000), pp. 239-266

.

Thanks Swede.

I found something about this Echo-Hawk:

Ancient history in the New World : Integrating oral traditions and the archaeological record in deep time = Histoire ancienne dans le Mouveau Monde : Intégration des traditions orales et des données archéologiques des temps anciens
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
ECHO-HAWK R. C. (1) ;

Oral traditions provide a viable source of information about historical settings dating back far in time-a fact that has gained increasing recognition in North America, although archaeologists and other scholars typically give minimal attention to this data. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) lists oral traditions as a source of evidence that must be considered by museum and federal agency officials in making findings of cultural affiliation between ancient and modern Native American communities. This paper sets forth the NAGPRA standards and presents an analytical framework under which scholars can proceed with evaluation of historicity in verbal records of the ancient past. The author focuses on an Arikara narrative and argues that it presents a summary of human history in the New World from initial settlement up to the founding of the Arikara homeland in North Dakota Oral records and the archaeological record describe a shared past and should be viewed as natural partners in post-NAGPRA America. In conceptual terms, scholarship on the past should revisit the bibliocentric assumptions of prehistory, and pursue, instead, the study of ancient American history -an approach that treats oral documents as respectable siblings of written documents.


http://cat.inist.fr/...&cpsidt=1557457



Found something else too:

http://nativehistory...d.com/id15.html







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