Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 3 votes

Doggerland


  • Please log in to reply
862 replies to this topic

#436    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 08 May 2010 - 06:57 PM

View Postlightly, on 08 May 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

Hi Abramelin,   did a search and stumbled upon this site  on concentric circle petroglyphs ..  Look at this one  , from Spain !   no zigzags beside.. but  the same circles with line to center.    http://www.paim.net/circles/

Attachment spain.jpg   *click to enlarge


*


Thanks Lightly, it just shows that these circular patterns can be found all over the world.

But Scotland has by far the most, and I want to know why.

Were they closest to whatever inspired them to carve that pattern into rock?

Was it something seen in the heavens??

Or was it just drug-induced? But even then, why is Scotland flooded with these patterns? Or the British Isles and Ireland in general?


#437    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 7,002 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 08 May 2010 - 07:40 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 May 2010 - 06:57 PM, said:

Thanks Lightly, it just shows that these circular patterns can be found all over the world.

But Scotland has by far the most, and I want to know why.

Were they closest to whatever inspired them to carve that pattern into rock?

Was it something seen in the heavens??

Or was it just drug-induced? But even then, why is Scotland flooded with these patterns? Or the British Isles and Ireland in general?

    good questions!.. i dunno... but yes, concentric circle and spiral patterns are found all over the world in  petroglyphs and arts and crafts.   i mentioned spiral galaxies once..  but you said they didn't have the Hubble telescope.   True. . but don't you find that ancient peoples have this peculiar habit of seeming to know things that they ,according to us at this time, Shouldn't !?    I was just reading that in the American southwest..  some peoples used spiral petroglyphs as solar calendars..  to track the annual motions of the  sun....  by directing sumbeams on them in different ways.

* And remember the spirals at NewGrange??  and the shaft of sunlight that  penetrates the interior at solstice?

Edited by lightly, 08 May 2010 - 07:43 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#438    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 08 May 2010 - 08:29 PM

View Postlightly, on 08 May 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

    good questions!.. i dunno... but yes, concentric circle and spiral patterns are found all over the world in  petroglyphs and arts and crafts.   i mentioned spiral galaxies once..  but you said they didn't have the Hubble telescope.   True. . but don't you find that ancient peoples have this peculiar habit of seeming to know things that they ,according to us at this time, Shouldn't !?    I was just reading that in the American southwest..  some peoples used spiral petroglyphs as solar calendars..  to track the annual motions of the  sun....  by directing sumbeams on them in different ways.

* And remember the spirals at NewGrange??  and the shaft of sunlight that  penetrates the interior at solstice?

Nobody can see spiral galaxies with their naked eyes, Lightly.

So skip that idea, please.

And spiral petroglyphs as solar calenders is nothing but the present hype. In a next decade something else, some other explanation will be hype.

My idea is that these ancient peoples depicted some weird looking celestial event, a comet emitting spirals, a comet that eventually impacted into the North Sea, a comet seen by people all over the earth, a scary sight at night, and MAYBE the cause of the Storegga Slide, and thus the destruction of (the remnants of) Doggerland.

.


#439    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 7,002 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 09 May 2010 - 12:13 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 May 2010 - 08:29 PM, said:

Nobody can see spiral galaxies with their naked eyes, Lightly.

So skip that idea, please.

And spiral petroglyphs as solar calenders is nothing but the present hype. In a next decade something else, some other explanation will be hype.

My idea is that these ancient peoples depicted some weird looking celestial event, a comet emitting spirals, a comet that eventually impacted into the North Sea, a comet seen by people all over the earth, a scary sight at night, and MAYBE the cause of the Storegga Slide, and thus the destruction of (the remnants of) Doggerland.

.

   Apparently,  it's not some sort of hype...    the website explains how the construct functions as a solar calendar.

http://www.solsticep...org/science.htm

A Unique Solar Marking Construct

Summary:
An assembly of stone slabs on an  isolated butte in New Mexico collimates sunlight onto spiral petroglyphs carved on a cliff face. The light illuminates the spirals in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. The assembly can also be used to observe lunar phenomena. It is unique in archeoastronomy in utilizing the changing height of the midday sun throughout the year rather than its rising and setting points. The construct appears to be the result of deliberate work of the Anasazi Indians, the builders of the great pueblos in the area.

Near the top of an isolated butte in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, three large stone slabs collimate sunlight in vertical patterns of light on two spiral petroglyphs carved on the cliff behind them. The light illuminates the spirals each day near noon in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral. At equinox and winter solstice corresponding forms of light mark the spirals. We found that the relationship between the shape and orientation of the slabs and the resultant light patterns on the cliff is a complex one and required a sophisticated appreciation of astronomy and geometry for its realization. The site is unique in employing the varying height of the midday sun during the year to provide readings of solar declination. In this respect it is clearly different in concept from the many archeoastronomical sites throughout the ancient New and Old Worlds that tell the passage of the year by marking the rising and setting points of the sun and moon .

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#440    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 09 May 2010 - 01:06 AM

View Postlightly, on 09 May 2010 - 12:13 AM, said:

   Apparently,  it's not some sort of hype...    the website explains how the construct functions as a solar calendar.

http://www.solsticep...org/science.htm

A Unique Solar Marking Construct

Summary:
An assembly of stone slabs on an  isolated butte in New Mexico collimates sunlight onto spiral petroglyphs carved on a cliff face. The light illuminates the spirals in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. The assembly can also be used to observe lunar phenomena. It is unique in archeoastronomy in utilizing the changing height of the midday sun throughout the year rather than its rising and setting points. The construct appears to be the result of deliberate work of the Anasazi Indians, the builders of the great pueblos in the area.

Near the top of an isolated butte in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, three large stone slabs collimate sunlight in vertical patterns of light on two spiral petroglyphs carved on the cliff behind them. The light illuminates the spirals each day near noon in a changing pattern throughout the year and marks the solstices and equinoxes with particular images. At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral. At equinox and winter solstice corresponding forms of light mark the spirals. We found that the relationship between the shape and orientation of the slabs and the resultant light patterns on the cliff is a complex one and required a sophisticated appreciation of astronomy and geometry for its realization. The site is unique in employing the varying height of the midday sun during the year to provide readings of solar declination. In this respect it is clearly different in concept from the many archeoastronomical sites throughout the ancient New and Old Worlds that tell the passage of the year by marking the rising and setting points of the sun and moon .

It is a hype: as soon as an archeoloigist - nowadays - encounters a circle of standing stones or something else, ancient and circular, s/he immediately assumes it must be something to do with a star calendar.

And if you want to see proof of what you think it is, you will no doubt find proof corroborating your assumptions.

Just put up a large circle of standing stones, and you will have an alignment with some stars.

It always works.

In a next decade they will have another convincing theory about what those standing stones 'stand' for.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 May 2010 - 01:07 AM.


#441    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 7,002 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 11 May 2010 - 02:05 AM

Abramelin..  i found many examples of Solar ( and Lunar)  tracking  Spiral Petroglyphs  ..   they work... . .    hype or no hype.  :)
  From the summary..( of the website i posted above) :  At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral.
    Here are two more examples of Spiral Petroglyphs which Accurately mark Solar events.
http://www.astro.uma...onteaching.html
  CHACO CANYON, NEW MEXICO is a 1,000 year old solar and lunar calendar, located high (400') atop Fajada Butte, inaccessible except by ropes. This site was discovered in 1977 by Anna Sofaer. At noon on the solstices and equinoxes, a dagger of light (called the 'Sun Dagger') pierces a spiral petroglyph carved into the rock face of the cliff. The same spiral petroglyph has been shown to also mark the major and minor standstills of the Moon. The Sun Dagger is accepted by archaeoastronomers worldwide as the best example of a culture keeping track of the Sun and also the 18.6 year cycle of the Moon.

http://www.innvista....avel/puerco.htm
Overlooking the Puerco River, the pueblo was occupied 600 to 800 years ago by Ancestral Puebloan People. Features include partially stabilized walls of several room types and a number of petroglyph panels. One of the latter appears to have been a solar calendar. The sun follows different paths throughout the year. This petroglyph marks the summer solstice. During the morning, a shaft of sunlight travels down the side to penetrate the centre of a small spiral.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#442    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 May 2010 - 01:24 PM

View Postlightly, on 11 May 2010 - 02:05 AM, said:

Abramelin..  i found many examples of Solar ( and Lunar)  tracking  Spiral Petroglyphs  ..   they work... . .    hype or no hype.  Posted Image
  From the summary..( of the website i posted above) :  At summer solstice a narrow vertical form of light moves downward near noon through the center of the larger spiral.
    Here are two more examples of Spiral Petroglyphs which Accurately mark Solar events.
http://www.astro.uma...onteaching.html
  CHACO CANYON, NEW MEXICO is a 1,000 year old solar and lunar calendar, located high (400') atop Fajada Butte, inaccessible except by ropes. This site was discovered in 1977 by Anna Sofaer. At noon on the solstices and equinoxes, a dagger of light (called the 'Sun Dagger') pierces a spiral petroglyph carved into the rock face of the cliff. The same spiral petroglyph has been shown to also mark the major and minor standstills of the Moon. The Sun Dagger is accepted by archaeoastronomers worldwide as the best example of a culture keeping track of the Sun and also the 18.6 year cycle of the Moon.

http://www.innvista....avel/puerco.htm
Overlooking the Puerco River, the pueblo was occupied 600 to 800 years ago by Ancestral Puebloan People. Features include partially stabilized walls of several room types and a number of petroglyph panels. One of the latter appears to have been a solar calendar. The sun follows different paths throughout the year. This petroglyph marks the summer solstice. During the morning, a shaft of sunlight travels down the side to penetrate the centre of a small spiral.


Posted Image

http://www.jqjacobs....west/chaco.html

Hi Lightly, yes, I know about Chaco Canyon.

But I am not saying no solar calendars were ever created, or that it is impossible or something.

If you look at those stones on the Btritish Isles and Ireland, they are many times literally covered with petroglyphs depicting spirals and concentric circles and 'cups'. And the 'tails' that go from center to outer ring of those petroglyphs are often not straight lines.

If they are indeed solar calendars, why are there so many on the same stone? Why do they often touch and even overlap eachother?

I am not saying my comet thing is a better explanation, just another explanation, but the explanation based on some halucinogenic/shamanic experience could be equally true.


#443    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 May 2010 - 04:26 PM

An example of Northumberland, UK:

Posted Image

Would carvings in rock like these two help people determine what day it is?

And why two very similar petroglyphs almost joined together?

It must not have been a quick and easy job to carve this into rock, so I think they did it intentionally.

And I like to repeat: these carvings look a lot similar to the much later labyrinths we can also find all over the world (and not just in Crete as many seem to think; there are older ones in other places of the world)

Labyrinths - according to traditions that surround them - always have to do with life and death (the center always representing death or rebirth or the 'other world').

According to these ancient traditions you have to walk the spiralling path of the labyrinth (the course of your life, with turns left and right), and finally end up in the center, the moment and place you will 'die').

The Greeks/Cretans put a bull-horned dude in the center, the Minotaurus, something you had to conquer or die.

Just as a reminder: I like to think that many millenia ago a comet emitting spirals of gas/dust appeared in the heavens for months on end, and clearly visible -and HUGE- in the night sky all over the world. Eventually it (its CENTER, the comet itself) hit a place somewhere west of Norway, causing the Storegga Slide that destroyed Doggerland. The people living in Scotland where the survivors living closest to whatever plunged into the North Sea, incorporated this event into their myths, and depicted it all over the place. It must have scared them s***less, and no doubt it influenced their religion (shamanic).

No proof, nada, just something I like to imagine happened a long time ago.



Hale-Bopp, as seen through a telescope. But this is what I imagine people many millennia ago saw in the skies above them, and at a much closer distance from earth/ it was about to hit earth :

Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 11 May 2010 - 05:06 PM.


#444    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:28 PM

Hey Lightly, here's a site about your Anasazi.

Look at this picture, and the comment below it:

Posted Image

Could these ancient petroglyphs represent what
astronomers know as sungrazing comets? Or are
they celestial symbols foretelling the demise
of a long-vanished people?


http://www.climbings...n_the_Edge.html

EDIT:

Yeah, I know what many here are now thinking:  these Anasazi lived long after the Doggerlanders were gone.

But just look at how they depicted what might have been comets.

Well, I feel sort of lucky; I am not the only idiot...


EDIT:

A petroglyph found in Scotland, one of many thousands:

Posted Image
.


If these are solar calendars... I give up.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 May 2010 - 08:13 PM.


#445    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 7,002 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 12 May 2010 - 01:21 PM

Abramelin, Great stuff..    .. ( i'm not saying every spiral petroglyph is part of a solar calendar of some sort...  just that some obviously are, because they accurately Function as such.)    The cup and ring markings you show are very interesting. (depictions of 'heavenly' bodies ?.. and more?)   Did you see the show airing on the National Geographic Channel ( "Stone Age Atlantis" )  ???  sort of an unfortunate ,but catchy!, title... for what is a very interesting program.  It talks mainly  about the Doggerlands... and  the fact that the people living at that time throughout the Entire Area were more 'sophisticated'  and settled (especially on the coasts)  than earlier assumed. The waters covering the Doggerlands are silty and deep and active enough to make exploration difficult... But by using seismic records gathered by Oil Exploration Companies  Ancient villages and middens (dumps) can be detected.  Also...  they looked in the Black Sea (further East)  ,which was  also land very gradually swallowed by the sea during the same time period as the Doggerlands, where the waters are shallower and clearer and found many  many artifacts  from the same time periods Including  wooden objects and  even some textiles preserved by the Cold waters ..and mud.*
    They also talked a little about the Storegga  slide (HUGE underwater land slide near Norway ,for those who might not know)  and the tsunamis caused by it.
    Anyway...  yes,  all of the  spiral and concentric  and  channeled and tailed petroglyphs are very interesting and obviously depict things of great importance to the peoples who carved them.

  One other  personal thought...  how do they manage to be all over the world from times when there was assumed to be no contact  between those parts of the world??  I keep hearing that people can't develop complex ideas in isolation...   but at the same time i keep hearing that when people DO.. it's explained away as a case of  parallel development or   convergence.  ..." because people being people tend to develop the same ideas  independently  blah blah blah"

Edited by lightly, 12 May 2010 - 01:24 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#446    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 12 May 2010 - 08:11 PM

View Postlightly, on 12 May 2010 - 01:21 PM, said:

Abramelin, Great stuff..    .. ( i'm not saying every spiral petroglyph is part of a solar calendar of some sort...  just that some obviously are, because they accurately Function as such.)    The cup and ring markings you show are very interesting. (depictions of 'heavenly' bodies ?.. and more?)   Did you see the show airing on the National Geographic Channel ( "Stone Age Atlantis" )  ???  sort of an unfortunate ,but catchy!, title... for what is a very interesting program.  It talks mainly  about the Doggerlands... and  the fact that the people living at that time throughout the Entire Area were more 'sophisticated'  and settled (especially on the coasts)  than earlier assumed. The waters covering the Doggerlands are silty and deep and active enough to make exploration difficult... But by using seismic records gathered by Oil Exploration Companies  Ancient villages and middens (dumps) can be detected.  Also...  they looked in the Black Sea (further East)  ,which was  also land very gradually swallowed by the sea during the same time period as the Doggerlands, where the waters are shallower and clearer and found many  many artifacts  from the same time periods Including  wooden objects and  even some textiles preserved by the Cold waters ..and mud.*
    They also talked a little about the Storegga  slide (HUGE underwater land slide near Norway ,for those who might not know)  and the tsunamis caused by it.
    Anyway...  yes,  all of the  spiral and concentric  and  channeled and tailed petroglyphs are very interesting and obviously depict things of great importance to the peoples who carved them.

  One other  personal thought...  how do they manage to be all over the world from times when there was assumed to be no contact  between those parts of the world??  I keep hearing that people can't develop complex ideas in isolation...   but at the same time i keep hearing that when people DO.. it's explained away as a case of  parallel development or   convergence.  ..." because people being people tend to develop the same ideas  independently  blah blah blah"

I know about that documentary, Lightly, "Alien Being" mentioned it first here, and I later posted a link to the full doc online.

Heh, and the Storegga Slide, I think I have mentioned it so many times, people got bored of it, lol.

-

Why do they depict the same symbol all over the world? Maybe it's because they saw the same thing all over the world, in the sky above them?

And the circular labyrinth can also be found all over the world; and it's not something you come up with on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

You can find it on the Nazca plateau, the Hopi had one, you will find them in the Brittish Isles, Scandinavia, Sardinia, Greece, Crete, and as far as I know, you can find them in Australia too.

Either people sailed the seas wide and far and much earlier than we now accept as proven fact...or...that labyrinth represents what they all saw in the skies above them.

If anyone has a better idea, I sure like to hear about it.


#447    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 7,002 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 12 May 2010 - 11:23 PM

hmmmmmm.    :yes:

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#448    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 13 May 2010 - 05:18 PM

Maybe the spread around the globe of the circular labyrinth pattern needs it's own thread.

Here are some pics:


Nazca:
Posted Image


Hopi:

Posted Image



Knossos:
Posted Image


Sardinia:

Posted Image

England:

Posted Image

Finland:
Posted Image

How to construct a labyrinth pattern:

Posted Image


Or...

Posted Image




Or....

Posted Image


And people have constructed this all over the world.

Think about that one.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2010 - 05:56 PM.


#449    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 13 May 2010 - 06:13 PM

I will trow out the bait.........


The Doggerlanders fled to nearby countries after the remnants of their homeland got flooded by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide.

As I have said many times here, they were very probably seafarers, whalers, at home on the seas.

Maybe the Storegga Slide was caused by a spiralling comet that finally impacted west of Norway, and seen in the ancient skies for months on end, a huge spectacle in the heavens, and visible on much of the earth.

Either they fled far away, and spread their stories together with the image of the heavenly spectacle (don't forget: the spirals and concentric circles and labyrinths are found most numerous in the Brithish Isles, Ireland and Scandinavia).

Or...

Many peoples on earth saw the same thing in the skies above them, and depicted it on rock.

But the labyrinthal pattern is too complicated to just have appeared on many places on earth by coincidence.

My idea is that the labyrinthal pattern is based on how people viewed the spirals emiitting from the comet.

It may have turned and twisted for god knows what reason, and created these labyrinthal patterns in the skies; they are similar all over the world, but not exactly carbon copies of eachother.

Biut those that were most impressed by what they saw were those who lived close by the impact of the comet: the people living in what is now Scotland.

==

EDIT:

I know, many will say that the labyrinths I posted in my former post are from many different ages.

True, but people keep rebuilding, reconstructing, refreshing - whatever word you prefer to use - ancient sacred structures, patterns, buildings and so on.

ANOTHER EDIT:

For those who have the opinion that people millenia ago were not that great seafarers, think again: the ancestors of the Australian Aboriginals arrived in Australia around 40,000 BC (Mungo Man).

Either they swam for days on end being crazy, or they intentionally set out for land in the south - on rafts -  that they knew was there because, smart as they were, they had seen land birds flying from south (their horizon) to north.

http://en.wikipedia....go_Lake_remains

As I have said many times all over this board, we socalled sophisticated and technological advanced people greatly underestimate the ancients.

Because we somehow have no balls anymore to do what they must have done frequently, we assume it was impossible for them to do what I just suggested they did.

It says more about how we are now than what we generally assume how they were back then.


.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2010 - 07:09 PM.


#450    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 13 May 2010 - 07:34 PM

Posted Image

Now imagine this thing ejecting gas/dust and appoaching earth.

And it rotates on just one axis. Maybe what the ancients saw in the heavens rotated on 2 axisses, creating intricate spiral patterns in the heavens.

The Hale-Bopp comet, rotating on one axis only:
Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 13 May 2010 - 07:51 PM.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users