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#496    Abramelin

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:12 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 26 June 2010 - 02:29 PM, said:

I just posted this link in OLB thread but it shows the oldest known swatika dating to approx 5,500bce so we are getting closer.

http://www.omniglot....iting/vinca.htm

Very plausable what you are saying and to Sitchinize it all you need is for the orbit to be off set by a coming together with another body. It's always spirals so maybe there is a increasing orbit length with about 1,600 being the last date but an orbit of 4,400 years would get us to 6,000bce and at this time (for some reason) the orbit reduced to 3,600 that will takes us about to about 2,200, which fits that dutch scientists reinterpretation of the mayan longcount. After that the orbit will shrink to prehaps 1,800 years with the comet getting smaller on each passing until it disintegrates completely.

Check this also. You have lumionisty and then blackness as found in nigh all myths and religions but it well correspond to comets. WE may have discuessed this all before :lol:

http://shadowlight.gydja.com/surt.html

Another old swastika ::

Samarra Iraq, 5000 BC :
Posted Image


And the oldest known swastika:


Mezin, Ukraine (carved in ivory), 10,000 BC:
Posted Image

Heh, true Sitchinizing is easy: I just say it were the Annunaki who deverted the comet to create mayhem on planet earth (at the moment their own planet Nippy Roo was near the location of the comet), scare the crap out of people and play god.

But true, the large planets in our solar system can mess with the orbit of a comet so noone can really say if the time it takes the comet to orbit our sun has been stable for many millennia.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 June 2010 - 06:13 PM.


#497    Abramelin

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:48 PM

Well, this event comes rather close:


Kaali, on the Estonian island of Saaremaa, is the site of the last giant meteorite impact to occur in a densely populated region. The landscape that the collision left in its aftermath has been the subject of many mythological tales and may have been home to a mysterious ancient cult.

About 7,500 years ago, a huge rock from space came hurtling toward the earth, faster than a speeding rocket. Several kilometers above the earth's surface, the meteorite broke into pieces from the pressure and heat of the atmosphere. The resulting chunks collided into Saaremaa with the force of a small nuclear bomb, wreaking havoc on the landscape and possibly claiming numerous victims.

The explosion left nine total craters, now known as the Kaali Meteorite Crater Field. Some of these craters are quite small: one measures only twelve meters across and one meter deep. But the most interesting of the group is the largest crater, a gently sloping bowl filled with stagnant, murky water.

Simply known as Kaali crater, the largest crater (which measures 110 meters across) is believed to have been a sacred site for many centuries, in part due to its cosmic origin. Surrounding Kaali crater are the remains of an immense stone wall from the Late Bronze Age, stronger than any similar structures in the region and providing clues to the crater's use by ancient peoples.

Archaeologists believe it is possible that the wall served as a stronghold for an ancient cult settlement. As evidenced by the unusually large quantity of animal bones found within the wall's borders, the Kaali crater lake was not only a watering place but also a place of sacrifice. While it is known that Estonians have made live offerings in the past (for good harvests and other reasons), one curious aspect of the site's animal remains is that some date back only to the 1600s, long after the Church forbade such rituals.

Some even believe that ancient offerings still remain undiscovered at the bottom of the six-meter-deep Kaali lake. However, deposits of oak trees in the water have prevented scientists from probing beyond four meters below the surface. Whatever the case may be, Kaali is a site of indisputable importance, historically and scientifically speaking.

http://atlasobscura....te-crater-field


I can imagine some pieces travelled further, and impacted into the sea, west of Norway (causing the Storegga Slide, tsunami, deluge of Doggerland, blah blah).

Btw, I am aware of the fact that the dating of the impact of the Kaali comet ranges from somewhere around 600 BC to 5500 BC, but a true Sitchinite acolyte will not be bothered by these minor disturbances in his/her reasoning.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 June 2010 - 07:00 PM.


#498    Abramelin

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:40 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 June 2010 - 06:48 PM, said:

Well, this event comes rather close:


Kaali, on the Estonian island of Saaremaa, is the site of the last giant meteorite impact to occur in a densely populated region. The landscape that the collision left in its aftermath has been the subject of many mythological tales and may have been home to a mysterious ancient cult.

About 7,500 years ago, a huge rock from space came hurtling toward the earth, faster than a speeding rocket. Several kilometers above the earth's surface, the meteorite broke into pieces from the pressure and heat of the atmosphere. The resulting chunks collided into Saaremaa with the force of a small nuclear bomb, wreaking havoc on the landscape and possibly claiming numerous victims.

The explosion left nine total craters, now known as the Kaali Meteorite Crater Field. Some of these craters are quite small: one measures only twelve meters across and one meter deep. But the most interesting of the group is the largest crater, a gently sloping bowl filled with stagnant, murky water.

Simply known as Kaali crater, the largest crater (which measures 110 meters across) is believed to have been a sacred site for many centuries, in part due to its cosmic origin. Surrounding Kaali crater are the remains of an immense stone wall from the Late Bronze Age, stronger than any similar structures in the region and providing clues to the crater's use by ancient peoples.

Archaeologists believe it is possible that the wall served as a stronghold for an ancient cult settlement. As evidenced by the unusually large quantity of animal bones found within the wall's borders, the Kaali crater lake was not only a watering place but also a place of sacrifice. While it is known that Estonians have made live offerings in the past (for good harvests and other reasons), one curious aspect of the site's animal remains is that some date back only to the 1600s, long after the Church forbade such rituals.

Some even believe that ancient offerings still remain undiscovered at the bottom of the six-meter-deep Kaali lake. However, deposits of oak trees in the water have prevented scientists from probing beyond four meters below the surface. Whatever the case may be, Kaali is a site of indisputable importance, historically and scientifically speaking.

http://atlasobscura....te-crater-field


I can imagine some pieces travelled further, and impacted into the sea, west of Norway (causing the Storegga Slide, tsunami, deluge of Doggerland, blah blah).

Btw, I am aware of the fact that the dating of the impact of the Kaali comet ranges from somewhere around 600 BC to 5500 BC, but a true Sitchinite acolyte will not be bothered by these minor disturbances in his/her reasoning.

.

There are some here who believe in the Oera Linda Book as it being a true ´gospel´ about ancient history-.

People, it is a HOAX,  it was created to piss off Bible thumpers.

God Have Mercy On Their Souls, Because They Don´t Know What They Are Doing.


#499    Abramelin

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:59 PM

To give you an example of how some people - in desparation to prove their theory - love to stretch, twist and ignore facts ( I posted about Deruelle and Tristan HERE ) :

THE DOGGER ISLAND

SPM: How do you explain that the myth of Atlantis refers to an island?

Sylvain Tristan: Mythical accounts in Greece tell us that Apollo originally came from Hyperborea, which we saw was most probably northern Europe. Moreover, the legends of Avalon, Atland and Aztlán, which respectively belong to the mythologies of the Celts, the Frisians and the Aztecs, all suggest an island that would have existed long ago in northern Europe. So, the issue is, did the island of Atlantis described by Plato once exist somewhere in northern Europe, even if we know that the Greek philosopher probably deliberately exaggerated facts about it in his account? Strangely enough, there is a submerged island in the North Sea. As there are Megalithic sites all around the North Sea (in Scandinavia, Germany, Holland and Britain), it just stands to reason that, should this island have been emerged in Megalithic times, there must have been Megalithic settlements on it as well. This submarine island is called the Dogger Bank. Scientists generally think the Dogger Bank has been submerged before 5000 BC, which would chronologically place it before the Megalithic era.

There are, however, reasons to doubt the validity of this date. For some geological reasons due to the last Ice Age, the ground in this part of the world has been slowly going down – it still is, which explains why today in Holland, Germany and England, people regularly have to fight against the sea which is encroaching the lands that are sinking on the shores of the North Sea. There is little doubt in my opinion that the Dogger Bank has been rising out of water much later than scientists tend to think, hence at Megalithic times these lands were probably settled by them. That's probably the submersion of this island that later gave birth to different myths of a lost island like those of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and so on – and of course Plato's "tale" of Atlantis. I personally think there are strong presumptions to carry out underwater excavations, or at least investigations, in the Dogger Bank area. Undersea Megalithic sites and, who knows, scanty remains of a lost capital might be found there in the shallow waters of central North Sea. After the flooding of the island, perhaps around 3500-3100 BC, the Megalithic people might have sought new lands in the Middle East, and finally created a new 'capital' on another northern island – in Britain, in the Stonehenge/Avebury area, for example.

  http://www.world-mys...w_stristan1.htm

Now read the high-lighted part of the text again.

This Tristan assumes the scientists don't know what they are talking about, and that he knows better, but he doesn't tell us how.

A perfect example of Sitchinization.

He says that Dogger Island was rising much later, NO.. it was sinking all the time, like the rest of Doggerland, and that was because of isostatic rebound, and by rising sea levels (because of the melting ice sheets).

He either had a switch turned off during the interview, or he doesn't know what he's talking about.

His theory is about Atlantis being nothing but the megalithic culture of Western Europe. But that culture started long after Dogger Island submerged . So there he had a problem... and thus he said scientists were wrong with their date of 5000 BC as the date for the final submergence of the last remaining part of Doggerland: Dogger Island (the present Dogger Bank). According to him and Deruelle, the Doggerlanders built dikes to protect them. Well, I would be glad if he found proof of those dikes, but up to now, nada.



==

Haha, and here is a site about imagined 'alternative history', a site about 'What If'..

An example: Dogger Island in the Sea of Time

Simbraland (its name derives from the Germanic tribe the Cimbrii) is transported into our world from its own dimension completely without warning on the night of the 6th June 1940.

Simbraland comes from a dimension where a bit of a butterfly net ensured a history not too alien to ours- the Roman Empire came along much as we know it however the period following its decline went rather different. For instance what we would call most of England in the Simbrian's dimension is Friesland and the big nation over in the Americas is Tirnia; a Gaelic speaking country.
The Roman Empire too never quite stayed dead- its revival came about not from a German Charlemagne but from someone in the Latin areas. Rome remains alive to this day, going through various periods of rise and fall with it being the grand dream of any Mediterranean dictator since time immemorial to reconquer the empire. They tend to never get far but as of 1940 the world is on full alert as they have overran 'France', Iberia and much of North Africa are threatening to invade Britain at any moment.

Technology wise Simbraland's world is around our 1950s in technology with some exceptions.
Simbria's fighters could give the Super Sabre a good run for their money.
Nuclear power remains strictly theoretical in their world.
The major powers of their world have 'done' space and are talking about landing the first man on the moon within the decade.

Simbraland itself- as you can see from the map its not very big.
The closest real life analogue would be the Netherlands. It is a rich, densely inhabited first world nation with a flat, wet landscape and much of its land area below sea level.
Its military is small, it is a small, peaceful country and its politicians have only just recognised not too long ago the potential Romanian threat to their nation.
Natural resources wise oil is its key resource, it can fully supply its own needs there with more than enough to export. It is far from self sufficient in most things however; food in particular.

It is a constitutional monarchy. A democratic nation. However, due to the threat of the latest wave of Roman revivalists pan-Germanism is a very popular idea amongst its people. Eugenics ideas too still hold quite a lot of stock.

Ideas for impact?


....and watch the maps this "Tyr" created:

dogger island
http://img687.images...5803/dogger.png
http://img203.images.../dodoggstad.png

Edited by Abramelin, 01 July 2010 - 09:05 PM.


#500    Abramelin

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:52 PM

Compare that with the Zeno map of "Frislant" (Friesland), a imaginairy island in the northern Atlantic (or in the North Sea, that's my idea;   Zeno had no clue where in the north this island should have been) :

Posted Image

If the "Over the Linden" family (or "Oera Lindas" as we know them) had known about this map by Zeno, no doubt they would have used the place names on the island for their 'authentic' manuscript.


EDIT:

I forgot to post the complete Zeno map:

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 01 July 2010 - 11:31 PM.


#501    Abramelin

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:34 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 June 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

I have mentioned Juergen Spanuth a couple of times in this thread.

He was convinced that Atlantis City was nothing but Hel(i)goland, and that the whole of Atlantis was the area now occupied by Denmark, and the southern part of Sweden, and the submerged areas in between. And he also said it happened around 1500 BC, and that the people fleeing the area when it got flooded ended up in Egypt as one of the Sea Peoples.

Well, I do have 'some' problems with that, but nevertheless he had an interesting theory.

And here is an extract from Juergen Spanuth's "Atlantis of the North"




Amazingly, the assertion has been made that the area between
Heligoland and Eiderstedt has been under the sea for 6000 years; and
that consequently the island Abalus/Basileia/Farria/Fositesland could
never have lain there (Gripp 1953). This is contradicted by the
researches of all genuine experts in the geology and oceanography of
this area, whose results may now be summarized.


The Kiel geologist E. Wasmund placed the amber island 'off the coast
of Eiderstedt, where tertiary clays overlay amber- and carbon-bearing
sands' (1937, p. 36). The geologists W. Wolff .and H.C. Reck, also
from Kiel, wrote: 'One may well accept that somewhere between
Heligoland and Eiderstedt lies the ancient amber land ... so it is
also probable that in this area lies the island Abalus of the
ancients' (1922, p. 360). O. Pratje, one of the greatest experts on
the geology of Heligoland, wrote: 'But Heligoland remained joined on
the east side to the mainland, from which it projected as a peninsula.
Its submersion did not occur all at once, but piecemeal; this can be
seen from the series of underwater terraces, the remains of former
shorelines. . . The Stone Age and Bronze Age people, whose remains
have been found on Heligoland,must have reached here dryshod, without
having to cross any wide sea inlets. For at that time the island was
joined to the mainland'. (1953, p. 57f.) C. Delf, an outstanding
expert on the history of North Frisia, wrote that the island of
Abalus/Basileia lay 'east of Heligoland, but 15-20km west of St Peter'
(1936, p. 126).


R. Hennig looked for the island, on the evidence of the ancient
authors, 'halfway between Heligoland and the mainland' (1941, p. 955).
Finally, the prehistorian C. Ahrens has stated on the evidence of many
geological, oceanolographic and archaeological investigations: 'At all
events some particularly high-standing parts of the south ridge must
have remained as islands, whose traces can still be recognized on the
Steingrund, the 'Loreley bank', and near Oldenswort - today part of
the mainland of Eiderstedt.' He further stated that, 'This chain of
islands resisted the attacks'of the sea for a considerable time, in
places perhaps to the frontier of historic times' (1966, p. 38-9).
But there is more. There is reliable evidence to show that this island
was still inhabited up to medieval times. I have already described
how, after the catastrophic flooding of 1220 BC, the island
re-surfaced when the sea retreated during the Iron Age. It will be
shown below (page 250) that it was visited by Pytheas of Massilia in
about 350 BC and its position precisely described. I have also
described the reports of the early Christian missionaries, and of Adam
of Bremen.


In papal documents from the period 1065-1158, 'Farria' is mentioned as
a bishop's see (Carstens 1965, p. 52ff.). Eilbert, for example, is
described as 'Farriensis Episcopus'. In the year 1065, Pope Alexander
wrote to the bishops of Denmark, mentioning that Archbishop Adalbert
of Hamburg had complained of Bishop Eilbertus, 'Farriensis Episcopus',
who had failed to appear at synods for three years and had committed
various offences. At the same time Adalbert wrote to King Sweyn (or
Svein) II of Denmark, to a'sk him to break off all communication with
Eilbert of Farria and to take over the collection of church revenues
(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 5).


The island of Farria is also mentioned later. About 1193, a Bishop Orm
'Faroensis'1 is named next to Bishop Hermann of Schleswig
(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 77). The Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa declared in a deed of 1158 that the privileges which were
accorded to the bishop of Hamburg were to be extended and Hamburg was
to be the metropolitan see for Farria also. In the documents of the
time, 'Farria' and 'Frisia' alternate.


Laur has given it as his opinion that 'Farria' is to be understood as
the Faeroes (1951, p. 416ff.). But this is impossible. The Faeroes do
not lie 'in the mouth of the Elbe', 'across from Hadeln', as Adam of
Bremen described the site of Farria. They have never been inhabited by
Frisians, nor are they 'on the boundary between the Frisians and the
Danes', nor(as the scholiast stated) 'visible from an island at the
mouth of the Eider'. Besides, the history of the bishops of the
Faeroes is perfectly well known. The first one was called Gudemund; he
died in 1116; his successor Matthew in 1157. And the missionaries
Wulfram, Willibrord and Liudger were never on the Faeroes.
So we have evidence from Papal and Imperial documents from the
eleventh and twelfth centuries that the island of Farria/Heiligland
existed at that time and had by no means sunk into the sea 6000 years
previously.


It is most probable that Heimreich used older documents now lost for
his North Frisian Chronicle of 1666 when, in the passage I have
already quoted (page 47), he stated that on 'Siidstrand' or
'Heilig-land' (which he elsewhere calls 'Heiligland or Farria insula')
there were nine parishes 'anno 1030', but that after the great floods
of 1202 and 1216 'but two churches remained'. According to Heimreich
these last two churches finally disappeared after the 'great deluge'
of 1362. It appears from a letter of indulgence of the Council of
Basle in the year 1442, that during the preceding period on the west
coast of Schleswig no fewer than sixty churches had been flooded over
(Peters 1929, p. 542). At that time (1362) according to the Dithmarsch
chronicler Neocorus, who was preacher in Busum from 1590 to 1624,
'between flood and ebbtide 200,000 folk were drowned' (1.313).
On the oldest extant map of Heligoland, we find written to the east of
it, 'Here is a stone-work that stretches one and a half miles into the
sea, where in past time, they say, seven churches stood. They can
still be seen at low water.' The 'mile' here is the Danish mile of
7.42km. So in 1570 ruins could still be seen at low water 11-12 km
east of Heligoland. W. Stephe, who studied this map (1930, p. 96)
remarked that the tradition of the seven churches is found also' in
Rantzau and other sixteenth-century writers. Caspar Danckwerth, the
learned doctor and Burgomaster of Husum, whose work describing the
country was 'unequalled in its time for scope and accuracy' (Hedemann
1926, p. 878) confirmed these reports, and said that even at high
water one could walk eastwards from Heligoland 'for a mile [7.42km] on
the sand'.


In King Waldemar II's 'Earth Book' of 1231, we find: 'Eydersteth and
Lundebiarghaereth, whence the King is used to cross over to Utland'.
So Utland, or Siidstrand, between Eiderstedt and Heligoland, must have
been large enough in 1231 for King Waldemar to find accommodation
there for a whole army.


In the Eiderstedt Chronicle, which records many events from the period
between 1103 and 1547, we read under the year 1338: 'Here began Utland
first to break in two, and all the dykes to break up' (Peters 1929, p.
581). There is an old map which must have been drawn before 1634
because it shows the island of'Strand' which was destroyed in that
year.


On it is written:' Universa haec regio Frisica Septentrionalis
olimfuit terra . . . in tot partes disrupta? ('This whole region of
North Frisia was once land, but has been broken up into many parts').
Johannes Petrejus, 'whose notes are fully confirmed by documents in
the Royal Archives at Copenhagen' (Panten 1976), reported in the year
1597 that in an old missal of the church of St Peter, the island was
'called Siiderstrand', but that it had 'now disappeared'. These and
many other pieces of evidence show that in the early Middle Ages, an
island or a chain of islands still lay between Heligoland and
Eiderstedt, 'of which part was of old called Utland or Siiderstrand,
that once reached as far as Heligoland' (Heimrefch 166b, 80).
The last remains of these islands must, as Heimreich says, have sunk
in the 'great deluge' of 1362, which is mentioned not only by Neocorus
but by the Eiderstedt Chronicle: 'Anno 1362 at midnight there came the
greatest of floods; then were drowned most of the folk of Utland'
(Peters 1929, p. 581).


A fatal ignorance of these and many other historical and geological
researches is shown in Gripp's assertion that the 'Area around
Heligoland sank slowly into the sea about 5000 BC. The Neolithic
remains that have been found on Heligoland are simply the remains of
hunting expeditions, for it was only visited from time to time by
hunters. A Bronze Age settlement there is not indicated.' In answer I
refer him to the many Bronze Age finds, and the thirteen Bronze Age
grave-mounds, which 'show the existence of a considerable settlement
on Heligoland up to the period 1550-1300 BC' (Zylman 1952, p. 39;
Ahrens 1966, p. 244).


Equally imbecile - in the face of the many catastrophic floods of
which we have not only documentary evidence but traces in the shape of
finds from drowned woods and settlements - are Wetzel's assertion that
'our geological evidence indicates gradual, on the whole
disturbance-free, processes', and his talk of'Spanuth's outdated
catastrophe-theory'; and the appeals to 'special researches' whose
results are not available and which in spite of repeated invitations
he cannot produce.


These two gentlemen know nothing of the 'Steingrund', about which they
asked, and nothing about the undersea ridge between Heligoland and
Eiderstedt, which was formerly known as the 'Siiderstrand'. This
underwater ridge is still clearly visible on the isobath chart of the
sea between Heligoland and Eiderstedt.

http://www.archivum....axon-times.html




These are the 'walls' he saw:


........OK, the pic doesnt show up (what's new, eh?), but here's the link:

http://1.bp.blogspot.../Atlantis 3.jpg


I uploaded it to a picture host, and here it is:

Posted Image

And it's from http://punkadiddle.b...is-mystery.html

That site is not too friendly about Spanuth and his theory...

EDIT:

Concidering the geology of Helgoland, I think it may indeed have been an important geological feature of Doggerland, near the mouth of the Elbe river during the Mesolithic, maybe even a harbor. Mind you, the Elbe runs to the center of Europe, and it starts but a short distance of the Danube river.




Posted Image


Posted Image

Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks.  Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times.  The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.
http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html


As far as I know, no marine archeologist ever found submerged 'walls' near Heligoland. No doubt they did research the area, but only found the remants of ancient dunes that , yes, did indeed run parallel to the ancient shore line.

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.


#502    Swede

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 09:12 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks.  Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times.  The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.
http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html


As far as I know, no marine archeologist ever found submerged 'walls' near Heligoland. No doubt they did research the area, but only found the remants of ancient dunes that , yes, did indeed run parallel to the ancient shore line.

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.

Hi Abe,

Wasn't able to find much on your question in the professional literature. Will look a bit more. I have a suspicion that this may be (as you have presented) in reference to Jurgen Spanuth material. The below contains a glimmer;

http://www.time.com/...,935699,00.html

Note date. Another;

http://dancingfromge...nuth-port-husu/

Most of this "info" seems to being propagated on Creationist sites, and they appear to be getting some factors rather confused.

As you have probably already vetted, the Jonathan Gray site referenced above is, shall we say, questionable? In addition, it would appear that Gray was an associate of Wyatt (Ron). Now there is a combo.

http://isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

Hope this provides some leads.

.

Edited by Swede, 04 July 2010 - 09:17 PM.


#503    Swede

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:25 AM

Abe - Addendum: Have spent some additional time on the topic. Nothing credible as of this point, but I thought that you might find the following to be of interest for a number of reasons. Have not had the time to explore all the resources, but did a perfunctory overview. The apparent lack of information may be telling.

http://www.cyberpurs...heo/uw-arch.asp

.


#504    Qoais

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 07:38 AM

Quote

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.


Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds
of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate
to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to
store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one
to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes
Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,
Hello
In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends.  On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground.  Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land.  Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks.  Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times.  The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.



Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?



Thank you

Edited by Qoais, 05 July 2010 - 07:38 AM.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

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#505    TheSearcher

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:50 AM

View PostQoais, on 05 July 2010 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds
of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate
to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to
store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one
to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes
Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,
Hello
In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends.  On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground.  Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land.  Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks.  Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times.  The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.



Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?



Thank you

That's a damned shame, it would have been interesting to know where he got that from. Good effort though Q, thanks.

It is only the ignorant who despise education.
Publilius Syrus.

So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#506    Abramelin

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:10 PM

View PostSwede, on 05 July 2010 - 02:25 AM, said:

Abe - Addendum: Have spent some additional time on the topic. Nothing credible as of this point, but I thought that you might find the following to be of interest for a number of reasons. Have not had the time to explore all the resources, but did a perfunctory overview. The apparent lack of information may be telling.

http://www.cyberpurs...heo/uw-arch.asp

.

Thanks Swede, that last link is interesting.

The links in your forner post, yeah, I know of them, but I refrained from posting them because of their lack of - let's say-  science.

To Spanuth's defence: I don't think he was intentionally lying, but maybe he just saw down below what he wanted to see.

If there really had been an oval structure, a fortification, I will bet that it would be all over the internet. And the reason it is not  has nothing to do with the dept of any finds: Spanuth claimed he could see it while looking over board.

Btw, somewhere earlier in this thread I copied a post from some forum; someone living in a village on the east coast England said that it was wellknown, early in the 20th century, that their were remnants of villages and structures on the Dogger Bank, sometimes even visible with the naked eye.

Well, I'd love to see those too.


#507    Abramelin

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:17 PM

View PostQoais, on 05 July 2010 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds
of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate
to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to
store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one
to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes
Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,
Hello
In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends.  On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground.  Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land.  Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks.  Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within "recent" times.  The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.



Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?



Thank you


Thanks for trying, Qoais.

To me -  " I did not consider this particular one to be of world shaking importance"  - is a lousy excuse: if it was this guy who posted about those walls, he would no doubt have saved the source of his info.

Reports about tree stumps you can now find everywhere on the net and in books, but it's only Spanuth who mentioned anything (west of Denmark, near Heligoland) about submerged walls.

I remember most if not all the sources where I got my info from, and I as you know, this thread in now like 34 pages long..

Believe me, I have a bit of a problem believing this Jonathan guy...


.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 July 2010 - 12:19 PM.


#508    Abramelin

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:48 PM

I did a bit of Googling about this Jonathan Gray... well, whatever he cooked up, it's impressive because of volume, not because of quality.

He told you, Qoais, that he wasn't able to give you any source about those submerged walls. Well, I think he just did this: copy and quote from every fringe site he could dig up, every fringe book he read, quote fromthe Pravda and The Sun, and several of similar 'quality' newspapers.

He didn't research s***, he just copied and pasted whatever suited his fancy.

==========
103 pages here:

http://www.scribd.co...-the-Des-t-Ti-n
http://curezone.com/...n_s_Secrets.pdf

...but no sources... Too much of a bother, apparently.

=

http://www.world-mys...s.com/jgray.htm

=
Great, and here he quotes form the "Chronicle of Akakor",  a wellknown hoax:

In the traditions of the Ugha Mongulala tribe of the western Amazon jungle, the South American continent was "still flat and soft like a lamb's back, the Great River still flowed on either side." But then came a cataclysm: "The Great River was rent by a new mountain range and now it flowed swiftly toward the East. Enormous forests grew on its banks In the West, where giant mountains had surged up, people froze in the bitter cold of the high altitudes." (Karl Brugger, The Chronicle of Akakor, 1977)

http://www.watchmanb...onathanGray.htm

--

Sorry, but all I want to know is where he got his quote about the submerged walls from. For the rest. I am not in the least interested in this guy. I think I will have to get me a copy of Spanuth's book, and read it all by myself.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 July 2010 - 10:54 PM.


#509    Abramelin

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:06 PM

I have mentioned the French writers Jean Deruelle and Sylvain Tristan many times now, but here's sort of a summary of deruelle's theory:

Deruelle's theory was simple but new to me : Atlanteans would have been the Megalithic (from the Greek 'huge stone') people from Western Europe - people belonging to a badly-known civilisation. Most Europeans have at least once seen or heard about the gigantic stones they once erected - Stonehenge and Avebury in England being famous examples, but hundreds of thousands of cromlechs and standing stones can be found throughout Europe and beyond. This civilisation thrived for nearly 4 millennia, roughly from 4800 BC to 1200 BC. Basing his work on those of a German author from the 1950's - Jürgen Spanüth, who claimed Atlantis was located in the North Sea - Deruelle spent much of his retirement time gathering clues supporting his thesis of a Northern Atlantis.

Among other things he noticed that right in the middle of the North Sea was a huge, 300 km-long submerged island now called the Dogger Bank. Remarkably, Deruelle's calculations showed him that the global rise of oceans level following the last Ice Age, combined with the implacable sinking of the undersea soil, implied that the Dogger Bank had been a real island during the Megalithic period! According to Deruelle the Megalithic people, who were skilful navigators, probably had their capital city on this island and subsequently extended their influence to Western Europe and the Mediterranean. Last but not least, this people having lived before the great Sumerian and Egyptian civilisations, it was likely to have helped these first great civilisations rise in the first place.


http://spcov.free.fr...n/atlandide.php

Here Deruelle's theory in French (and watch the pics, the ones I already posted inthis thread):
http://doggerbank.org/index.html

This is an image by Deruelle, suggesting Dogger Island was still above sea level around 3000 BC: http://doggerbank.org/carte03.html

Like I said, all that was needed for that theory was to stretch in time to known date of the submergence of Dogger Isand.

Officially that date is around 5000 BC, but to have it as center/origin of the European Megalithic culture that date should be around 3000 BC.

To get to that date, Deruel not only suggested the scientists had been wrong, but also that the ancient inhabitants of Dogger Island built dikes to protect them from the rising sea.

Alas, no proof of dikes on the bottom of the North Sea have been found (and Spanuth's 'walls' were nothing but ancient sand banks) or even proof that Dogger Island stayed above the waters for long after 5000 BC.

But where is the scientific proof Doggerland/Dogger Island finally submerged around 5000 BC?

Well, it took me some time, but here it is (and first some really nice pics, and the first I saved to function as background for my dektop, heh) :

Posted Image

It's from the cover of this book:

Holocene Land - Ocean Interaction and Environmental Change around the North Sea (2000)

According to the back cover (scroll down till the end of the manuscript) it's the situation in the North Sea around 7.7 ka BP, 5700 BC.

This is somewhat in contradiction with older pics I posted here (or this one is just more accurate); it appears still a lot of Doggerland was above sealevel around 5700 BC, while the similar pics I posted all say it was the situation around 8000 BC.

The Storegga Slide occurred at 6100 BC, and this would mean that even though the land got flushed, it was still much above sealevel for 500 years after.

But... according to radiocarbon data (in this document) of the Dogger Bank the most recent data pointing to an above sealevel situation are from 6140 +/- 50 years., not 5700 BC.

So either I didn't read the document well enough, or I didn't understand it well enough (I think it's the last option, lol).

I also copied some of the other images in the online book that show Doggerland/-island on later dates:

Posted Image
Posted Image

(man, I love maps !!)

Found something more about dating Doggerland/-island :


Modelling western North Sea palaeogeographies and tidal changes during the Holocene (2000)

Analysis of cores collected from Late Devensian (Weichselian) and Holocene sediments on the floor of the North Sea provides evidence of the transgression of freshwater environments during relative sea-level rise. Although many cores show truncated sequences, examples from the Dogger Bank, Well Bank and 5 km offshore of north Norfolk reveal transitional sequences and reliable indicators of past shoreline positions. Together with radiocarbon-dated sea-level index points collected from the Holocene sediments of the estuaries and coastal lowlands of eastern England these data enable the development and testing of models of the palaeogeographies of coastlines in the western North Sea and models of tidal range changes through the Holocene epoch. Geophysical models that incorporate ice-sheet reconstructions, earth rheology, eustasy, and glacio- and hydroisostasy provide predictions of sea-level relative to the present for the last 10 ka at 1-ka intervals. These predictions, added to a model of present-day bathymetry, produce palaeogeographic reconstructions for each time period. The palaeogeographic maps reveal the transgression of the North Sea continental shelf. Key stages include a western embayment off northeast England as early as 10 ka BP; the evolution of a large tidal embayment between eastern England and the Dogger Bank before 9 ka BP with connection to the English Channel prior to 8 ka BP; and Dogger Bank as an island at high tide by 7.5 ka BP and totally submerged by 6 ka BP. Analysis of core data shows that coastal and saltmarsh environments could adapt to rapid rates of sea-level rise and coastline retreat. After 6 ka BP the major changes in palaeogeography occurred inland of the present coast of eastern England. The palaeogeographic models provide the coastline positions and bathymetries for modelling tidal ranges at each 1-ka interval. A nested hierarchy of models, from the scale of the northeast Atlantic to the east coast of England, uses 26 tidal harmonics to reconstruct tidal regimes. Predictions consistently show tidal ranges smaller than present in the early Holocene, with only minor changes since 6 ka BP. Recalibration of previously available sea-level index points using the model results rather than present tidal-range parameters increases the difference between observations and predictions of relative sea-levels from the glacio-hydro-isostatic models and reinforces the need to search for better ice-sheet reconstructions.


http://sp.lyellcolle...tract/166/1/299



So even this last date of the final and total submergence of Doggerland is 6 ka BP, or 4000 BC. Close, but no meat.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 July 2010 - 02:19 PM.


#510    Abramelin

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 06:35 PM

Because I once assumed that the name "Nehalennia" became a name for some sea goddess, but was originally the name of some now 'lost country' she represented, I asked a Finnish woman on my own site, what is "Land near ice and frost" in your language ( I asked her because the Doggerlanders must have been part of the Maglemosian culture, a culture of people speaking a Finno-Ugric language)?

She told me it was "maa lähellä halla ja jäätä". ['ja' is pronounced like English 'ya' or 'ia']

Sounds similar to the various spellings of Nehalennia, or "Neeltje Jans" as the name is preserved in my language. And - like I said - it were Romans in ancient Friesland who wrote it down and inscribed it on stone the way it sounded in their ears


But i think I made it a bit too difficult for myself: I could have simply asked her, "wat is 'land near ice' in your language?"

land near ice: maa lähellä jään ( >> 'j' is pronounced like 'y' in English 'ya' or 'i' in English 'ia' )



The ancient ancestors of the Frisians/Norwegians/Swedes/Danes may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark. This is even suggested on the Wiki page about Norway.

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in this thread, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.)

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehalennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, or in old Frisian, Hel/Helja/Halja.

Today I watched again the BBC "Stone Age Atlantis" documentary about Doggerland.

Near the end of this doc a scientist tells us many neolithic stone axes were found on  the socalled "Brown Banks", smack in the middle between southern Holland and England, and west of where all these much younger Nehalennia votice altars were found. The suggestion was that even long after Doggerland disappeared, people still remembered it, and offered to the sea what was then very precious to them: smoothly carved stone axes.


==-=-===-=-===

It has been recognized for a long time that Northern Norway was populated before the inland Scandinavia glacier melted. The inhabitants came from the West: England, the plains situated at the location of the present North Sea, and Germany. The archaeological findings of these areas have been classified as belonging to the Maglemose culture which now is considered to be largely similar to the Narva culture located to the East of the Baltic Sea. Thus it must have been the same population and probably also the same language. The immigrants were attracted to the Northern shores by abundant game for hunting and a chance of sea fishing. The White Sea cliff drawings of the later comb ceramic era show whalery in which large sea vessels (resembling the umiak leather boats of the Eskimos) were used, already aided by such developed tools as the harpoon and and an attached buoy which prevented the prey from diving. It is also known that the Basques practised whaling using small boats as late as the historic period.

The Finno-Ugrians who had conquered the North from the West had been separated from the Eastern inhabitation by the glacier and also by several centuries; consequently they were also genetically separated from the rest of the Finnish linguistic groups. Some indigenous genetic complexes were enriched while some more recent genetic effects received by their Southern tribal relatives were lacking. A reason like this may lie behind the genetic difference met with the Lapps.


Posted Image

http://victorian.for...ty/32/ak1e.html
http://pakana.150m.c...KART1.HTM#10000


.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 September 2010 - 06:40 PM.





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