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#511    Abramelin

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:19 AM

I have said a couple of times in this thread that it contained enough material to write a book.

Well, someone else, a science fiction writer already did, and it's Stephen Baxter.

His book was published recently, June 2010 (did he read this thread?? damn !!) and it's called "Stone Spring".

What I like is that he made up a name for Doggerland, "Etxelur" which is Basque for "Homeland". So that means he assumes that it were people related to the present day Basques who inhabited Doggerland, while I assumed it were Finno-Ugric people (hence my name for that land, "Maalähelläjään", 'land near ice'). We both could be right if you check the map in my former post.

OK, I will post a couple of summaries to give you an idea what his book is about (and I hope you will notice that he talks about the building of dikes, or great wall, in his book.. where did he get that idea from...Deruelle or Tristan, perhaps??):

--

Stone Spring, by Stephen Baxter (Gollancz, £12.99)

In his more overtly science fictional works, Baxter again and again pitches struggling humanity against the vast natural forces at work in the universe. In this novel, set 10,000 years ago in the Mesolithic period, the Etxelur hunter-gatherer people face not only tsunami but the dawning realisation that their country is sinking into the ocean. Young orphan Ana embarks on a seemingly hopeless task: to persuade her people to build a great wall, hundreds of miles long, to keep out the rising tide. It is this wall, a symbolic as well as a physical monument to human endeavour, which will change the course of history. This first volume in the Northland series of alternate histories combines epic scope with impeccably researched detail.


http://www.guardian....n-review-choice

--

Product Description

8,000 years ago Europe was a very different place. England was linked to Holland by a massive swathe of land. Where the North Sea is now lay the landmass of Northland. And then came a period of global warming, a shifting of continents and, over a few short years, the sea rushed in and our history was set. But what if the sea had been kept at bay? Brythony is a young girl who lives in Northland. Like all her people she is a hunter gatherer, her simple tools fashioned from flint cutting edges lodged in wood and animal bone. When the sea first encroaches on her land her people simply move. Brythony moves further travelling to Asia. Where she sees mankind's first walled cities. And gets an idea. What if you could build a wall to keep the sea out? And so begins a colossal engineering project that will take decades, a wall that stretches for hundreds of miles, a wall that becomes an act of defiance, and containing the bones of the dead, an act of devotion. A wall that will change the geography of the world. And it's history. Stephen Baxter has become expert at embedding human stories into the grandest sweeps of history and the most mind-blowing of concepts. STONE SPRING begins a trilogy that will tell the story of a changed world. It begins in 8,000 BC with an idea and ends in 1500 in a world that never saw the Roman Empire, Christianity or Islam. It is an eye-opening look at what history could so easily have been and an inspiring tale of how we control our future.

About the Author
Stephen Baxter is the pre-eminent SF writer of his generation. Published around the world he has also won major awards in the UK, US, Germany, and Japan. Born in 1957 he has degrees from Cambridge and Southampton. He lives in Northumberland with his wife.


http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0575089180

--

Stone Spring is prolific science fiction writer Stephen Baxter’s latest novel, and is set in the Mesolithic period of Earth’s history dealing with a very headstrong people that decides to face nature rather than back down. This intriguing prehistoric epic is the beginning of new trilogy, all set on a now disappeared land-mass and based around the same concept. Stone Spring is not without flaws, but to those interested in it’s material it will offer a compelling plot and the chance to explore what our world could have been like, 10,000 years ago.
-
Blurb:
Ana is fourteen. Her father is missing, her mother is dead. Ana herself has perhaps another twenty years of life left to her. But in that time she is destined to change the shape of our world.

Ana lives on the North coast of Doggerland, a vast and fertile plain that 10,000 years ago linked the British Isles to mainland Europe. Life is short for Ana’s people but they live in an Eden-like world teeming with wildlife, a world yet to feel the impact of man. But their world is changing. The ice has melted, the seas are rising and one fateful year a Tsunami sweeps inland and scatters Ana’s people. But if the people of distant Jericho could build a wall to keep the world out, surely Ana’s people could build a wall to keep the sea out?
-
This isn’t your usual speculative genre book. For a start, it’s difficult to peg Stone Spring down as speculative since it’s really more historical. But then it’s not the most faithful historical fiction out there. Let’s be fair though: it isn’t exactly unfaithful, because there really isn’t much known about the Mesolithic period, and what is known, Stephen Baxter has included in there. For the rest it’s a mix of educated guessing and imagination for the sake of the story - it is, after all, a novel. There is no denying, though, that the setting is an attractive one. Because it’s so far back in our past it is both unknown and familiar and Baxter makes us rediscover it fully by making the first section of the book one that spans a large area geographically. We, of course, still center on Etxelur, part of the landmass between Britain and Europe, but we also take a look at prehistoric North America, the European Continent, the ancient city of Jericho in the Middle-East and, later in the novel, part of Britain. The amount of detail Baxter puts into this story is appreciated, though sometimes it can seem like he gets too caught up in them and lets the story and the characters fade a bit.

The plot itself tends to be rather straight forward, the first part being the exception as there is some jumping around going on then. Also, as the novel progresses it skips ahead increasingly often, passing over years mostly for the sake of seeing the development of Etxelur’s technology. This is what I meant about the some elements fading. If you jump ahead, missing years of the characters’ lives it’s a lot harder to identify with the characters as they evolve massively in sometimes the space of only a chapter or two. On the other hand, what Stone Spring does really well is employ devices, both plot-wise and character-wise, to ask a variety of questions: whether it’s right to resist nature, how much of an impact man should have on his surrounding, etc.

Overall Stone Spring is somewhat of an uneven book, but even irregular, its a book I enjoyed and I would gladly recommend. Beware though, if you’re not a fan of historical fiction (or history in general) then Stone Spring won’t be much good for you. For those that are interested and do read this then you can expect the sequel, Bronze Summer, around mid-2011, while the final book in the trilogy, entitled Iron Winter, is set for mid-2012. And of course, there are all the other novels Stephen Baxter’s written, if you wish to give those a try too.


http://www.lecbookre...hen-baxter.html

--

Publication Date: June 2010

8,000 years ago Europe was a very different place. England was linked to Holland by a massive swathe of land. The landmass of Northland lay where the North Sea is now. And then came a period of global warming, a shifting of continents and, over a few short years, the sea rushed in and our history was set.

But what if the sea had been kept at bay? Brythony is a young girl who lives in Northland. Like all her people she is a hunter gatherer, her simple tools fashioned from flint cutting edges lodged in wood and animal bone. When the sea first encroaches on her land her people simply move. Brythony moves further travelling to Asia. Where she sees mankind's first walled cities, and gets an idea. What if you could build a wall to keep the sea out?

And so begins a colossal engineering project that will take decades, a wall that stretches for hundreds of miles, a wall that becomes an act of defiance, and containing the bones of the dead, an act of devotion. A wall that will change the geography of the world. And it's history.

Stephen Baxter has had a long writing career and is an old hand at creating believable worlds (science fiction) and re-creating long-forgotten times (ancient epics).  In Stone Spring he shakes us up with writing that is deeply evocative and gritty, carrying us on the tide of a story that could so easily have happened, creating an alternative world and history to what we know today.

The story starts small and personal, singling out one girl, as she reaches womanhood.  Gradually it becomes bigger, wider, working in fantastical mythology and other ‘scatterlings’ of human existence.  We come to know these Mesolithic humans well and can relate to the harsh reality of their world.  The cold, the hunger, the fear of the elements, the various superstitions they cling to.

The author keeps us very close to the humans throughout the story, shifting his focus and ours, occasionally to make us aware of the chaotic environment they find themselves in.  The shifting weather, the elements the people revere and worship and depend on is treacherous and we very soon realise that it is going to turn on them in a truly damaging way.

When a tsunami hits, devastating the area, sweeping homes away, realisation hits that slowly the land they have relied on all their lives, is sinking beneath the waves.

A young girl, one of the scatterlings, decides to rise above the situation she is in and to try and save her tribe from utter destruction, by building a wall that will stand against the oncoming flood.

From here on, we are in unknown territory – an alternate history that is so plausible it gives you an uncomfortable itch behind the shoulder blades.  The author effortlessly drags us with him through the narrative, showing us petty rivalries, family members turning against each other, love and hate as tumultuous as the harsh and brutal environment he has set Stone Spring in.  
If there is one thing Stephen Baxter can do well it is world building and creating intense characters who, though separated through thousands of years, as a reader you can identify with.  The forward momentum in the novel is dizzying and sometimes you feel yourself wishing that things would slow down, just a bit.  But ultimately, it’s a great piece of fiction that reads quickly and exhaustingly, regardless of its decent size.

Stone Spring is a strong, thought provoking novel written by an author very much at the top of his game.  Stone Spring, published by Gollancz, is out now.


http://www.syfy.co.u...n-baxter-review

==

Baxter also added an extra to this book on his own website:

Ripples
This short fiction, related to my novel Stone Spring is exclusive to this website.


http://www.stephen-b...es.html#ripples



--

Some extra links:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Stone_Spring
http://en.wikipedia....rthland_trilogy
http://www.zone-sf.c...s/stspsbax.html
http://punkadiddle.b...pring-2010.html


#512    Abramelin

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:40 AM

About those dikes (or great wall)... it would not be too farfteched to assume Baxter got that idea from Jean Deruelle (and later Sylvain Tristan):

Posted Image

Deruelle thought Doggerland was above sea level for much longer (at least until 3000 BC) because it was protected by many dikes, and that it was the centre and origin of the Megalithic culture of western Europe.

No proof of any dikes there have ever been found, btw.

There have also been some who envisioned the Dogger Bank to be the location for a modern 'sea city':

Posted Image

http://www.aiai.ed.a...t/sea-city.html


#513    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:16 PM

Scandinavia settled by continental Europeans

A substantial proportion of the world's water was tied up in the continental glaciers during the Ice Age. As the sea level was much lower than it is today, expansive tracts of land which now lie underwater were once the site of coastal settlements. The North Sea Continent between England and Denmark is a case in point: underwater finds prove that this region was the site of human settlements in the late stages of the Ice Age.

Norwegian archaeologists believe that the first pioneering settlers to leave the North Sea Continent were sea-fishing communities which advanced rapidly along the Norwegian coastline to Finnmark and the Rybachy Peninsula around 9000 BC at the latest. Many archaeologists formerly believed that the earliest settlers on the Finnmark coastline, who represented the Komsa culture, migrated there from Finland, east Europe or Siberia. More recent archaeological evidence does not support this theory, however.

The pioneers who settled on the coast of Norway appear to have gradually advanced inland toward north Sweden, and presumably also to the northernmost reaches of Finnish Lapland. Around 6000 BC, a second wave of migrants from Germany and Denmark worked northward via Sweden eventually, too, reaching northern Lapland. The Norwegian coastline remained populated by its founding settlers, but the founding population of north Scandinavia was a melting pot of two different peoples. Does the fact that the "Sami motif" confines itself to a particular region of nrothern Scandinavia then suggest that the mutation occurred not before, but after, northern Scandinavia became populated?

Grave findings have shown that late Palaeolithic settlers in central Europe and their Mesolithic descendants in the Scandinavian Peninsula were Europoids, who had compartively large teeth - a seemingly comical detail, but nevertheless an important factor in identifying these populations. Although it is very unlikely that the language of these settlers will ever be identified, I cannot see any grounds for the theory that either of these groups spoke Proto-Uralic.


http://sydaby.eget.n...we/jp_finns.htm


========

Another (e)book about fiction concerning Dogger Island (see former posts):

http://forums.readit...445/272873.aspx


Cliff Dreamers by Jacqui Wood

Author: Jacqui Wood

This is a self-published book by Jacqui Wood, available from Lulu Publishing as an e-book or in paperback. I believe this is Jacqui's first fiction offering, having already written "Prehistoric Cooking". Jacqui Wood is an archaeologist, so it is not surprising to find the book set in a historical Europe.

I do have a few quibbles with the self-publishing aspect of this book, which I will get out of the way first. It is quite obvious that there was a lack of general editing as spelling errors can be found on nearly every other page; grammar is appalling and the tense can change several times within the same paragraph; and the narration also jumps from first to third and, most alarmingly in one paragraph to second, where the reader is addressed by the main character. I would dearly love to see a publishing hosue pick up this book just to sort out these technical quibbles. So, that's the critical part of this review over.

I had a wonderful time with this book. Not only was I drawn in by the turbulent life of its main character, Mia, but I learned quite a bit about Europe 6,000 years ago as the author effortlessly wove her knowledge of the period into the book. The story centres around an eleven year old girl, Mia, who lives on an island between Scanland (Norway) and Britland (Britain) which is fast disappearing into the sea.

Cliff Dreamers starts with Mia being chosen by the island's Shaman to be his priestess, an honour for most girls on Dogga Island, but not for Mia, who views this role as nothing more than slavery. Mia sits on her sand cliffs and wistfully watches the traders come in the their log boats and wishes she could travel far and wide with them. This soon becomes a reality when a fellow islander, Borg, discovers the Shaman's plans for Mia, who is not yet "of age".

Cliff Dreamers takes us along with Mia on her first ventures away from Dogger Island, and the various tribes she encounters with Kemit (the captain of the log boat in which she escapes), his crew and Borg. As the book progresses, we go back and forth from Mia's life on Dogga Island to her life at sea, trying to escape those who pursue her for her unusual magical powers.

The author is gifted when it comes to describing the various tribal settlements of neolithic times and I couldn't help but be drawn into Mia's world. I will be purchasing the sequel, Journey Through the Inland Sea, as soon as my finances allow. I will also be hoping that a publisher will pick up these books. I suspect the books will have a broad appeal because of the folding of history, archaeology, fantasy, magic and a thriller into one book makes them unique reading.


==


http://www.archaeolo...i - Papers.html
http://www.podfeed.n...f Dreamers/9698
http://www.archaeolo... Biography.html

http://bwitch.wordpr...reamers-update/



.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2010 - 04:20 PM.


#514    Abramelin

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:55 PM

Niflheim...

Puzzler and I have mentioned it in a couple of our favorite threads.

Niflheim, the Norse/Nordic place of Mists, the place were those who didn't die in battle went to.

A place ruled by a goddess called 'Hell".

"Hel" or Halla/Halja and so on was the name the ancient Frisians gave to the North Sea.

Those who followed this thread know I tried out my meager knowledge of linguistics, and know that I asked a Finnish woman once what "land near ice" would be in her language. It was maalähelläjään, a name quite close to Nehallenia, an ancient Dutch/Frisian sea-goddess.


Whattt? Quite close, you say? Yes, but only if the original name of this goddess is based on the pre-Indo-European name of the sea she was supposed to rule, "Hell".... My theory was that the ancestors of the Europeans (especially the Scandinavians) who came from an area near the Black Sea adopted the myths the pre-Indo Europeans they met in Europe told them about.

I have mentioned in this thread ancient north European (German and Dutch) 'pilgrimage Roads to Hell".

-

Once again ( from an old post here):

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark (that is the scientific view, based on archeological finds)..

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved a part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in the thread with that name, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehallennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, "Hell"/"Helja/Halja".

-

These days I found out that Niflheim was a mythical hell-like area protected by walls and gates.

And I have told you about a couple of French writers who assume that Dogger Island survived much longer than science thinks it did (according to science Dogger Island finally submerged at 6145 BC, according to these guys it survived untill 3000 BC), because of 'dikes'.

-

HEL -Goddess of death. Daughter of Loki. Ruler of Niflheim, the land of mists. Heroic souls go to Valhalla. Those who die of disease or old age come to Niflheim. Surrounded by high walls and strong gates, Niflheim is impregnable; not even Balder could return from there without Hel’s permission.

http://esoterictexts...monsminions.htm

-


The mists...

The mists were probably created by a cold northern branch of the Gulf Stream (think icy cold melt water from the glaciers covering the Scottish Highlands and Norway entering this branch in the northern part of the North Sea) meeting the southern warmer branch of the Gulf Stream (through the newly formed Channel) at Dogger Island. Cold and warm sea currents meeting at the center of the North Sea: Dogger Island.

I am not a meteorologist, but I assume those currents could create a lot of mist.... around that particular island.

An island that was whiped from the plate by a catastrophic flood caused by the Storegga Slide.

-

I admitt I am a bit 'off'' now, but nevertheless, I would like someone with more knowledge of meteorology and ancient Nordic myths to give me/us his/her view on this.


-


#515    Abramelin

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:11 PM

To make you get my idea:

Posted Image


#516    Abramelin

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:32 PM

I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many -  were inhabited by some superior civilization.


Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.


And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.


I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.



+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 December 2010 - 09:30 PM.


#517    Abramelin

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:27 PM

I will bump this thread until I get just ONE answer.

There....

LOL.


#518    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:53 PM

I think I'm down for this Abe, sounds logical and sensible.

I hope some others join in too.

Recall that fringe theory that Walhallagaren was Hades. I think I can actually find Pluto (ancient Roman Hades) as being reverred in the area too, I recall a lead to it earlier. I will read more of this thread and then comment more then and try and stay on track here.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#519    Swede

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:52 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 December 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many -  were inhabited by some superior civilization.


Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.


And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.


I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.



+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

Abe - Just a humbly submitted note -  For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

.


#520    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:58 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 December 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many -  were inhabited by some superior civilization.


Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.


And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.


I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.



+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

All praise to Abramelin, praise the crow.

I have found this a very interesting and enlightening piece of work. I wish their was more to add and that I could add to it. However I think that will be for future generations if indeed we can keep our fingers of the trigger. Also it's not generally within my interest area but I think you may have unearthed the reason why I and many others haven't contributed to the thread.

The answer if I may be so bold is that it's not very exciting. For the most part we are dreamers and we all like to speculate on what might be. "What would you do if you won the Euro Lottery?" Life today is filled with up to the minute news from every corner of the world which makes everything seem so frantic, we can jump in a car and travel hundreds of miles without much effort at all. The same can be applied to aviation. People actually cruise the oceans in huge hotels and for a while many are amused and amazed by the ease at which it is achieved. You only have to look on the net to see the amount of interest from the younger generation to join fantasy sites and create their own persona. Women in particular are drawn to unction's to stop their skin ageing and so on and on and on add infinitum.

Now many keep an eye on space exploration which boosts speculative interest to greater and greater heights. In truth it's hard for us to keep our feet on the ground and at the same time keep an open mind.

So on the one hand we have a growing surge of people moving away from everyday mundane life and wrapping themselves up in make believe. Whilst on the other you have those trying to keep a modicum of sensible thinking prevailing. Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

Edited by Flashbangwollap, 04 December 2010 - 11:09 AM.


#521    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:21 AM

View PostSwede, on 04 December 2010 - 02:52 AM, said:

Abe - Just a humbly submitted note -  For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

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Maybe Abe just meant if reference to it being an area affected by deluge or flooding...

Glacial lake outburst floods in North America
In North America, during glacial maximum, there were no Great Lakes as we know them, but "proglacial" (ice-frontage) lakes formed and shifted. They lay in the areas of the modern lakes, but their drainage sometimes passed south, into the Mississippi system, sometimes into the Arctic, or east into the Atlantic. The most famous of these proglacial lakes was Lake Agassiz. A series of floods, as ice-dam configurations failed (type 4) created a series of great floods from Lake Agassiz, resulting in massive pulses of freshwater added to the world's oceans.

The Missoula Floods of Washington state were also caused by breaking ice dams, resulting in the Channeled Scablands.

Lake Bonneville burst catastrophically due to its water overflowing and washing away a sill composed of two opposing alluvial fans which had blocked a gorge.

The last of the North American proglacial lakes, north of the present Great Lakes, has been designated Glacial Lake Ojibway by geologists. It reached its largest volume around 8,500 years ago, when joined with Lake Agassiz. But its outlet was blocked by the great wall of the glaciers and it drained by tributaries, into the Ottawa and St. Lawrence Rivers far to the south. About 8,300 to 7,700 years ago, the melting ice dam over Hudson Bay's southernmost extension narrowed to the point where pressure and its buoyancy lifted it free, and the ice-dam failed catastrophically. Lake Ojibway's beach terraces show that it was 250 m above sea level. The volume of Lake Ojibway is commonly estimated to have been about 163,000 cubic kilometres, more than enough water to cover a flattened-out Antarctica with a sheet of water 10 m deep. That volume was added to the world's oceans in a matter of months.

The detailed timing and rates of change after the onset of melting of the great ice-sheets are subjects of continuing study.

There is also a strong possibility that a global climatic change in recent geological time brought about some large deluge. Evidence is mounting from ice-cores in Greenland that the switch from a glacial to an inter-glacial period can occur over just a few months, rather than over the centuries that earlier research suggested.

http://en.wikipedia....ge_(prehistoric)#English_Channel_.28Strait_of_Dover.29:_Doggerland_and_the_channel_flood

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#522    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 01:46 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 December 2010 - 11:21 AM, said:

Maybe Abe just meant if reference to it being an area affected by deluge or flooding...

Glacial lake outburst floods in North America
In North America, during glacial maximum, there were no Great Lakes as we know them, but "proglacial" (ice-frontage) lakes formed and shifted. They lay in the areas of the modern lakes, but their drainage sometimes passed south, into the Mississippi system, sometimes into the Arctic, or east into the Atlantic. The most famous of these proglacial lakes was Lake Agassiz. A series of floods, as ice-dam configurations failed (type 4) created a series of great floods from Lake Agassiz, resulting in massive pulses of freshwater added to the world's oceans.

The Missoula Floods of Washington state were also caused by breaking ice dams, resulting in the Channeled Scablands.

Lake Bonneville burst catastrophically due to its water overflowing and washing away a sill composed of two opposing alluvial fans which had blocked a gorge.

The last of the North American proglacial lakes, north of the present Great Lakes, has been designated Glacial Lake Ojibway by geologists. It reached its largest volume around 8,500 years ago, when joined with Lake Agassiz. But its outlet was blocked by the great wall of the glaciers and it drained by tributaries, into the Ottawa and St. Lawrence Rivers far to the south. About 8,300 to 7,700 years ago, the melting ice dam over Hudson Bay's southernmost extension narrowed to the point where pressure and its buoyancy lifted it free, and the ice-dam failed catastrophically. Lake Ojibway's beach terraces show that it was 250 m above sea level. The volume of Lake Ojibway is commonly estimated to have been about 163,000 cubic kilometres, more than enough water to cover a flattened-out Antarctica with a sheet of water 10 m deep. That volume was added to the world's oceans in a matter of months.

The detailed timing and rates of change after the onset of melting of the great ice-sheets are subjects of continuing study.

There is also a strong possibility that a global climatic change in recent geological time brought about some large deluge. Evidence is mounting from ice-cores in Greenland that the switch from a glacial to an inter-glacial period can occur over just a few months, rather than over the centuries that earlier research suggested.

http://en.wikipedia....ge_(prehistoric)#English_Channel_.28Strait_of_Dover.29:_Doggerland_and_the_channel_flood

Agreed but I was only pointing out a few reasons why others don't appear so interested.

I have skimmed your additions for now Puzz and it, once again, is interesting enough to divert my attention.

I have probably learnt more coming to UM past and present than I have from all other sources.


#523    Abramelin

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:53 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 December 2010 - 11:53 PM, said:

I think I'm down for this Abe, sounds logical and sensible.

I hope some others join in too.

Recall that fringe theory that Walhallagaren was Hades. I think I can actually find Pluto (ancient Roman Hades) as being reverred in the area too, I recall a lead to it earlier. I will read more of this thread and then comment more then and try and stay on track here.

Yes, Hades: I have mentioned Hades in this thread too.
And the river Styx which coiled 9 tims around Hades.. like a guarding snake. That made me think of that snake that nibbled at the roots of Yggdrasil, a snake that lived in a sacred well on/in Niflheim (and could that be the big lake on Doggerland, a lake formed by the Silverpit Crater - which isn't a crater after all - ??). After England finally got separated from mainland Europe the new southern currents nibbled at the new coasts of the North Sea, currents that coiled around Dogger Island, the remaining part of Doggerland after the Storegga Slide...

Hades, another Underworld, and associated with mists.


#524    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:55 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 04 December 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

Agreed but I was only pointing out a few reasons why others don't appear so interested.

I have skimmed your additions for now Puzz and it, once again, is interesting enough to divert my attention.

I have probably learnt more coming to UM past and present than I have from all other sources.
Cool.
My answer was directed at Swede.

I agree that it's because it seems a bit dull that no one is getting into it. But I think the idea certainly has merit and it was land that is now submerged so people must have left it and probably knew the story of it sinking. The connection to Niflheim is imo very strong.

Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

Here we have Nehallenia,(Nyhellenia) at Walcheren (sometimes called Walhallagaren) which has been described in at least one theory as being the seat of Hades.

Edited by The Puzzler, 04 December 2010 - 02:57 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#525    Abramelin

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:56 PM

View PostSwede, on 04 December 2010 - 02:52 AM, said:

Abe - Just a humbly submitted note -  For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

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Of course you are right, Swede. And Puzz is also indeed right with what she thought I meant.





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