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Doggerland


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#526    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:58 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 December 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

Yes, Hades: I have mentioned Hades in this thread too.
And the river Styx which coiled 9 tims around Hades.. like a guarding snake. That made me think of that snake that nibbled at the roots of Yggdrasil, a snake that lived in a sacred well on/in Niflheim (and could that be the big lake on Doggerland, a lake formed by the Silverpit Crater - which isn't a crater after all - ??). After England finally got separated from mainland Europe the new southern currents nibbled at the new coasts of the North Sea, currents that coiled around Dogger Island, the remaining part of Doggerland after the Storegga Slide...

Hades, another Underworld, and associated with mists.
Yes, all very interesting indeedy.

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#527    The Puzzler

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:09 PM

Abe, did you ever catch up with this article? I'm sure everyone else might find it interesting too.
In March 2007, the New York Times ran an article discussing the DNA evidence for the theory that the English and the Irish are both largely descended from late Ice Age migrants, with only a small genetic contribution from more recent invaders.  This article extensively cited the conclusions of Stephen Oppenheimer, but it also included these eye-catching paragraphs:

Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion. . . .

Germanic is usually assumed to have split into three branches: West Germanic, which includes German and Dutch; East Germanic, the language of the Goths and Vandals; and North Germanic, consisting of the Scandinavian languages. Dr. Forster’s analysis shows English is not an off-shoot of West Germanic, as usually assumed, but is a branch independent of the other three, which also implies a greater antiquity. . . .

Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.
Foster's ideas have understandably not been well-received by linguists.  He is, after all, a mere geneticist -- and one whose conclusions fly in the face of all conventional theory.  However, if only because they align so closely with my prior speculations, I have to take them seriously.

If Foster is correct, then the blue arrows on the map above correspond precisely with his four branches of Germanic -- English with the left-hand arrow, West Germanic with the lower right-hand arrow, which points to the Netherlands and northern Germany, East Germanic with the arrow that zooms off to the right, and North Germanic with the two small arrows that head up into Denmark and Sweden.

That would be interesting enough in itself, but there's also a second piece to the story..

In April 2007, an article appeared describing how archaeologists were mapping a "lost country" beneath what is now the North Sea, between Britain and the Netherlands.  Hunter-gatherer communities had thrived there between about 10,000 and 6000 BC, when it was drowned by rising sea levels as the last of the Ice Age glaciers melted.

In the map, present-day Britain is shown on the left, with part of Ireland  beyond it.  The present-day Netherlands are on the right, and Doggerland is in between and connected to both.

A later article from July 2008 (which now appears to be available only as paid content) provided additional details, including the provocative notion that "Mesolithic people have in the past been depicted by researchers as restless nomads and Doggerland as a land bridge through which they passed without leaving a trace. The new map suggests that, on the contrary, Doggerland would have been an ideal environment for them to linger in."  

In fact, the article suggests that Doggerland may have been such a rich environment that its inhabitants were not nomads at all, but had the luxury of a sedentary lifestyle -- something that has been available to hunter-gatherers in only a few optimal locations, such as prehistoric Japan and the Pacific Northwest.  

It seems as though we might conceive of Doggerland almost as a kind of local, small-scale Atlantis, whose gradual submergence forced its inhabitants to migrate to Britain on the west and the Netherlands on the east.  As they did so, they could have maintained their sedentary ways by acquiring the new techniques of agriculture, which were just then arriving from the east and south.

Additional evidence is provided by the Frisian language and culture.  These days, the Frisians amount to some 400,000 people living in one province of the Netherlands and speaking their own distinctive language.  In the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, however, they extended much further up and down the North Sea coast.  (The pale circle on the map indicates roughly the present location of Friesland.)

Frisian has the distinction of being the closest of any language to English.  There is even a bit of traditional doggerel which was concocted to demonstrate the point.  It runs, "'Good butter and good cheese' is good English and good Fries."   (Some excellent translations of Bob Dylan songs into Frisian help make the case as well.)

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland..  However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.

The only unanswered questions that remain have to do with what the the potentially sophisticated Mesolithic culture of Doggerland might actually have been like -- and what traces it may have left in the societies on either side of the North Sea that it influenced.

http://www.enter.net...doggerland.html

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#528    Abramelin

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:09 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 December 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

Yes, all very interesting indeedy.

The main problem is of course the same one as before: the time frame.

According to science Dogger Island finally disappeared around 5000/5500 BC (the last Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC). Even if the French writers Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle are right, then still it stayed above sealevel to 3000 BC at the latest.

Could a(n orally transmitted) myth linger on for thousands of years before it was put down in words on rock and paper (runes) ??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 December 2010 - 03:16 PM.


#529    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:11 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 December 2010 - 02:55 PM, said:

Cool.
My answer was directed at Swede.

I agree that it's because it seems a bit dull that no one is getting into it. But I think the idea certainly has merit and it was land that is now submerged so people must have left it and probably knew the story of it sinking. The connection to Niflheim is imo very strong.

Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

Here we have Nehallenia,(Nyhellenia) at Walcheren (sometimes called Walhallagaren) which has been described in at least one theory as being the seat of Hades.

Sorry sweet heart XXX


#530    Abramelin

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:11 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 December 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

Abe, did you ever catch up with this article? I'm sure everyone else might find it interesting too.

http://www.enter.net...doggerland.html

Yes, you bet I did. But I understand this thread is quite large so no doubt some things will be repeated. Even I forget sometimes if I posted about something here or not (or elsewhere).


#531    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 01:51 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 December 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

The main problem is of course the same one as before: the time frame.

According to science Dogger Island finally disappeared around 5000/5500 BC (the last Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC). Even if the French writers Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle are right, then still it stayed above sealevel to 3000 BC at the latest.

Could a(n orally transmitted) myth linger on for thousands of years before it was put down in words on rock and paper (runes) ??

.
I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.
If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...


At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].
http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.

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#532    M.A.D CapeBretoner

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 02:10 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 December 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Yes, you bet I did. But I understand this thread is quite large so no doubt some things will be repeated. Even I forget sometimes if I posted about something here or not (or elsewhere).
Well, well, well, weren't you on an other thread asking me what I was on, you don't have to take my advice but get off the bottle and get on the herb and maybe you come out of your drunken stupor and your eyes and hears will become wide and you will know.PS Peace be with you.


#533    M.A.D CapeBretoner

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 02:39 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 December 2010 - 01:51 AM, said:

I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.
If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...


At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].
http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.

Now I don't mean to get in on some of this but you know the Mic- Mac have a myth or legend that was past down by oral tradition and it speaks of a time when the Great Ice Boat went on bye and it gives the name of P.E.I of today as well in English it is " When a boat weighs heavy in the water, when seen from far off" but before this it was called "Our Great Boat". What I'm getting at is it sounds of a time of the glaciers and how P.E.I was created in a sense by the glaciers because P.E.I is were they stopped and they started to reseed from there or float on bye like a boat.
I won't bring up here as to where that boat can be seen today, is at not on this one  but back on my story.
and if true that goes back a little more than a few thousand years for a story to be passed down does it not.


#534    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:13 AM

I think Heligoland can offer some clues, inhabited by ethnic Frisias. The geological make up particularly seems to suggest it was part of something much bigger at one time. Considering Doggerland would have been in the area of the German Bight, Heligoland could have been part of it. The sheer cliffs of Heligoland look like they have just fallen away to me, rather than been eroded in any way.

The island of Heligoland is a geological oddity; the presence of the main island's characteristic red sedimentary rock in the middle of the German Bight is unusual. It is the only such formation of cliffs along the continental coast of the North Sea. The formation itself is from the early Triassic geologic age, the formation is called Bunter. It is older than the white chalk that underlies the island Düne, the same rock that forms the white cliffs of Dover in England, and cliffs of Danish and German islands in the Baltic Sea. In fact, a small chalk rock close to Heligoland, called witt Kliff[2] (white cliff), is known to have existed within sight of the island to the west till the early 18th century, when storm floods finally eroded it to below sea level.

Heligoland's rock is significantly harder than the postglacial sediments and sands forming the islands and coastlines to the east of the island. This is why the core of the island, which a thousand years ago was still surrounded by a large, low-lying marshland and sand dunes separated from coast in the east only by narrow channels, has remained to this day, although the onset of the North Sea has long eroded away all of its surroundings. A small piece of Heligoland's sand dunes remains — the sand isle just across the harbour called Düne (Dune), which today holds Heligoland's airstrip.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Heligoland

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#535    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:17 AM

View PostM.A.D, on 05 December 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

Now I don't mean to get in on some of this but you know the Mic- Mac have a myth or legend that was past down by oral tradition and it speaks of a time when the Great Ice Boat went on bye and it gives the name of P.E.I of today as well in English it is " When a boat weighs heavy in the water, when seen from far off" but before this it was called "Our Great Boat". What I'm getting at is it sounds of a time of the glaciers and how P.E.I was created in a sense by the glaciers because P.E.I is were they stopped and they started to reseed from there or float on bye like a boat.
I won't bring up here as to where that boat can be seen today, is at not on this one  but back on my story.
and if true that goes back a little more than a few thousand years for a story to be passed down does it not.
Yes, I'm sure many ancient cultures, even like our Australian Aboriginals and their stories of the Dreamtime are quite a bit older than 2 or 3 thousand years, from what I know.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#536    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:09 AM

Fosite/Forseti was the God of Heligoland, called Holy Land as well.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#537    The Puzzler

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:14 AM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 04 December 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Sorry sweet heart XXX
well, that's OK, but don't let it happen again.  :ph34r:  lol

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#538    Abramelin

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:39 PM

View PostM.A.D, on 05 December 2010 - 02:10 AM, said:

Well, well, well, weren't you on an other thread asking me what I was on, you don't have to take my advice but get off the bottle and get on the herb and maybe you come out of your drunken stupor and your eyes and hears will become wide and you will know.PS Peace be with you.

The main difference between you and me is this: I admit when I post when 'under influence'.

As pissed as I am at that moment, I do realize that I am.

You never adimitted you were posting when you smoke herbs... but we all know you did.

And even when I am drunk, I am much more reasonable and logic then you will ever be when sober, or clear-minded.

Have you ever posted when sober??

I think not; not many people understand what you are talking about.

Ever.


#539    Abramelin

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:44 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 December 2010 - 08:09 AM, said:

Fosite/Forseti was the God of Heligoland, called Holy Land as well.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti

Ottema translated "Fosetiland/Helgoland" as 'pleasurable land", "Happy Land".

I don't have the link at hand right now, but I do remember what he said about FositeLand.

It must be somewhere in his introduction to the OLB (Oera Linda Book).


#540    Abramelin

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:50 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 December 2010 - 01:51 AM, said:

I believe in the culture it would have been in, yes. The Western Europeans, whether they be true Celts or earlier ones who became who we knew as Celts, are renowned for their ancient oral traditions, they can recall these poems for generations. In those days my guess would be they could keep them for even longer.
If it wasn't in the area it is I'd say no, but Celtic bards are legendary for recalling these stories and imo there is no reason not to think they could not have been passed on for hundreds of generations.

Even a telling of a Greek myth has the mention of it...


At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].
http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

The Celts of the West knew so well, one of the most ancient of Greek myths. It was them who possessed the Phaethon story.


I hope you won't forget that there were no Celts or Germans around at 6145 BC; they were still hanging around near the Black Sea.

All we can think of is that their ancestors (of the German and Celtic tribes) met the people already living in Europe after the last Ice Age, and adopted their myths about a country that got catastrophically flooded.





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