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#556    The Puzzler

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:29 AM

View PostSwede, on 06 December 2010 - 05:06 AM, said:

Way ahead of you gal. Have spent decades of research in the regions mentioned. Should you wish to learn more about the various intricacies of lobe movements/depositions/flowages in regards to such latter Wisconsin events such as the movements and wastings of the Des Moines, Superior, Red, and Rainy lobes and their resulting glacial by-products (moraines, drumlin fields, etc.), can willingly provide documentation. This would also apply to your "conception" of glacial Lake Agassiz, amongst others. Have walked/viewed the various receding beach ridges and conducted rather extensive archaeological research in regards to the changing environmental/resource procurement/lithic sourcing elements,etc. As an addendum, more current information may suggest a McKenzie River element in respect to glacial Lake Agassiz outflow.

As to glacial Lake Missoula, have also spent significant time in that area. You may wish to pull up some information on the "Dry Lakes" area of the state of Washington, USA.

While your references are less than optimal, there is certainly on-going research. How one would attempt to correlate this data with "Atlantis" or Greco-Roman mythology is not entirely clear.

.
Thanks, but not interested in North America at all. Just added that in thought to what Abe might have meant.

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#557    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:04 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 December 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:

Anyway, yes, how are the British Trojans exactly?.....

From Lydia to Rome to England or simply been in England all along?

The Trojan hero Aeneas had a son, Brutus who was allegedly the founder of the Britons. Even the Arthurian legend looks back to this legend for it's heritage. Arthur was of a tribe of Silures cymru. They are described similar to Hector with curly black hair and being fierce warriors. They are sometimes called black celts and are probably linked to the indigenous Iberian celts who had lived there since antiquity. So maybe there were elements of culture that ancient Iberians had a lot in common with the Anatolians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

I think I agree with Abe about Frisians being possible Fomorians. Probably this population of tall men was present but not widespread. Interestingly, the Fomoroians are displaced by the Fir Bolg and Tuatha deDannan. I can't help but notice Dan in Dardanus aswell as sounding similar to Diana the Roamn god. Connections all over the place but it is murky or misty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...eoples_01.shtml

The area of Frisia is really interesting because so much of it was anciently reclaimed land. In marshy areas I'd expect it to be very misty so if there was a place of legend this area of Europe would be a good bet imo. Britanin was also called Albion anciently, deriving from Alba (white). Maybe there is something to it but it is far from clear.

I also agree with Abe mentioning the Picts as these painted people were truly ancient and widespread over Europe. Again I see them as being stocky and dark haired rather than tall and blonde. Red hair is a charatcteristic of Picts and British celts but from what I've seen and read blonde hair genes were not as widespread in Britain as in other parts of Northern Europe.

Another quite strange connection that puzzles me is the celtic god Belus. This is most similar to the Assyrian Belus and Ninus possibly of a Heracklid dynasty? Also reminiscent of Baldr, which isn't too distant from Wahlda is it?

http://en.wikipedia....Belus_(Assyrian)

Anyway once you bring in the Assyrians it is easier to see all the ancient cultures as interacting. Maybe there is something to the Tribe of Dan and the coded refrences associated with them. Perhaps Arcadia stem from Akkadia and these points of opposition go even further back. Note the importance of tin and the mines of Cornwall thought to be exploited by the Phoenicians, seemingly allies of everybody and a convenient cover for the Tribe of Dan and maybe Trojan refugeess.

Bela the son of Beor ruled Edom, followed by Jobab a son of Zerah (Ge 36:32,33). The similarity of `Bela' to `Beli' (Beldeg, Baldr), who we proposed was a son of Odin (Valdr, Ward Green) is noteworthy, to say the least. The name of Zerah has been considered at length in the lineage of the Trojan Kings, called Sicambrian Kings before they became know as Frankish Kings from the time of Franco in 41 BCE. Zerah was a son of Judah, and it has been said that Dardanus the son of Zerah founded Troy (eg the writings of Jewish first-century historian Josephus, mentioning Danaus, C. Ap. 1.103, who was called Hermeus, who had a brother Aegyptus, saying that Danaus fled to Argos in Greece 393 years after the Israelites left Egypt) traveling from Argos to the area near what was to be the city of Troy, named after his son Tros. DanaŘs is the son of Belus and AnchinoŰ according to Peck. Belus is ``identified with Zeus'' in Perseus Encyclopedia. (Valdr, Ward Green; Compendium of World History, Vol 2, Ch 12A, Herman L. Hoeh; Contra Apionem, 1.103, 1.227, Flavius Josephus; Harper's Dictionary of Classical Antiquities, 1898, Harry Thurston Peck; Perseus Encyclopedia)

`Belerion', the ancient name for Cornwall, can mean: `Shining Land'. Cunedda (Cunedag), Beli's descendant who founded the Welsh Dynasty of Cunedda, is similar to Cinead, meaning `born of fire'. Baldr's ancestor, Thor, is known for Thor's hammer, which he wields as a blacksmith also wields a hammer to forge metals in the fire. While Beli can mean `shining' in Celtic it leaves us `without' in Hebrew, which is why Belerion (Cornwall) is `Shining Land' or `Seat of Storms'. In Wikipedia, Beli Mawr is said to be related to the bel- in the Irish god `Beltane' (`bright fire'). `Mawr' is a title meaning `The Great' sometimes used in referring to a descendant of the same name, which creates confusion in the minds of many. However, the title is not unlike the Jewish `Mar' (`prince'), and is like the title `The Great' (cf Charlemagne).

But why do we go to the trouble of making so much of Baldr (Beli) our acclaimed son of Odin or descendant of Thor with the chariot pulled by goats `gap-tooth' and `tooth-grinder', or of the fire with which these men may have been associated?


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#558    The Puzzler

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 December 2010 - 06:44 PM, said:

Eridanes (Greek 'Hridanos), a mythical river having Electrides (Amber) Islands at its mouth, first named as real by Hesiod, and placed in unknown northernmost Europe, flowing into the Northern Ocean (the Caspian Sea believed to be one of its inlets), supposed to be frozen, too shallow, or glutinous for navigation. Description of the Eridanus as an amber-river may embody memory of an early amber-route from Jutland up the Elbe and Rhine (Rhenus) and down the Rhone (Rhodanus) or across the Alps to north Italy. Greek authors from the time of PHERECYDES (mythologist ca 550 BC; or genealogist 456 BC) agreed to identify 'Hridanos with the Padus (Ligurian Bodincus, Greek 'Hridanos; modern Po) river in Western Europe (although there are no islands at the mouth). From Etruscan times, dikes protected its reclaimed riparian lands. Herodotus 5th c BC, and Strabo 1st c AD (both familiar with the Caspian Sea) doubted its existence. (Padus river is presumably named after Padua).

http://webcache.goog...l&ct=clnk&gl=nl

What islands or island was at the mouth of that Eridanos river?

The mouth of the Eridanos would be the Kattegat.. the Eridanos River being nothing but the Baltic Sea at a very ancient time, and maybe Dogger Island and a couple of other smaller islands located around it that were still above sea level back then were those islands.
But could people have remembered it for thousands of years before puting it on paper or inscribed it in stone??

I can't help but think the area of the mouth of the Eridanus is an obvious spot for it. The Helle peninsula:
The width of the peninsula varies from approximately 300 m. near Jurata, through 100 m in the most narrow part to over 3 km at the tip. Since the peninsula was formed entirely of sand, it is frequently turned into an island by winter storms. Until the 17th century the peninsula was a chain of islands that formed a strip of land only during the summer.

A road and a railroad run along the peninsula from the mainland to the town located at the furthest point, Hel, a popular tourist destination.



Personally, I think it's the Vistula and the area of Danzig/Dansk is the area spoken of, right next to the Helle peninsular, Hellespont. In the OLB the people are the Juttar and the area is the very east of the Baltic. Just north is the area of the Kaali Crater.

But I do think when Doggerland was inundated that it might have been the same time as when the Baltic sea flooded into the freshwater lake, possibly creating havoc all around.

There seems to be some connection between the 2 areas, there and Frisia so I think something, maybe trade connections have connected the 2. Another maybe, there was 2 or more events that have blended or co-joined in the stories when the people hooked up.

Niflheim (or Niflheimr) ("Mist Home", the "Abode of Mist" or "Mist World") is one of the Nine Worlds and is a location in Norse mythology which overlaps with the notions of Niflhel and Hel. The name Niflheimr only appears in two extant sources, Gylfaginning and the much debated Hrafnagaldr Ë­ins.

According to Gylfaginning, it was one of the two primordial realms, the other one being Muspelheim, the realm of fire. Between these two realms of cold and heat, creation began. Later, it became the location of Hel, the abode of those who did not die a heroic death.


So, Niflheim could be the colder, misty area of the area you say is it, the realm of fire may be in the Eastern Baltic, where meteoric events are recorded and the middle is where man really came to the fore, which would be Frisia to Poland...

Odin (as Ůri­i) further tells Gylfi that it was when the ice from Niflheimr met the flames from Muspelheimr that creation began and Ymir was formed:

ô Just as cold arose out of Nifiheim [Niflheim], and all terrible things, so also all that looked toward M˙spellheim became hot and glowing; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelmir;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim

2 people that joined up...
A j÷tunn [ˈj°ːtun], Old Norse jǫtunn /ˈjɔtunː/, anglicized jotunn or jotun, pronounced /ˈjoʊtən/, /ˈjoʊtʊn/, or /ˈjɔːtʊn/,[1][2] is a giant in Norse mythology, a member of a race of nature spirits with superhuman strength, described as sometimes standing in opposition to the races of the tribes of the Ăsir and Vanir, although they frequently mingle with or intermarry with these. Their otherworldly homeland is J÷tunheimr, one of the nine worlds of Norse cosmology, separated from Midgard, the world of humans, by high mountains or dense forests. Other place names are also associated with them, including Niflheimr, Utgar­r and Jßrnvi­r. In some legends and myths they are described as having the same height as humans.[citation needed]

In later Scandinavian folklore, the nature spirits called trolls (deriving from the term for 'magic') take over many of the functions of the more ancient concept of the j÷tunn.

The mountain range of southern Norway is likewise called in Norwegian Jotunheimen or the Jotunheim Mountains.



Wasn't it Norway Abe, you thought they might have migrated out of Doggerland to?

Yet when j÷tnar are named and more closely described, they are often given the opposite characteristics. Very old, they carry wisdom from bygone times. It is the j÷tnar MÝmir and Vaf■r˙­nir Odin seeks out to gain this ancient knowledge. Many of the gods' spouses are giants. Nj÷r­r is married to Ska­i, Ger­r becomes the consort of Freyr, Odin gains the love of Gunnlod, and even Thor, the great slayer of their kind, produces a child with Jßrnsaxa; Magni. As such, they appear as minor gods themselves, which can also be said about the sea giant Ăgir, far more connected to the gods than to the other j÷tnar occupying Jotunheim. None of these fear light, and in comfort their homes do not differ greatly from those of the gods.

Frikko here is Freyr.
In this temple, entirely decked out in gold, the people worship the statues of three gods in such wise that the mightiest of them, Thor, occupies a throne in the middle of the chamber; Woden and Frikko have places on either side. The significance of these gods is as follows: Thor, they say, presides over the air, which governs the thunder and lightning, the winds and rains, fair weather and crops. The other, WodenŚthat is, the FuriousŚcarries on war and imparts to man strength against his enemies. The third is Frikko, who bestows peace and pleasure on mortals. His likeness, too, they fashion with an immense phallus.

Posted Image
From Gotland.

Here's an interesting word...Seid or sei­r is an Old Norse term for a type of sorcery or witchcraft which was practiced by the pre-Christian Norse. Sometimes anglicized as "seidhr," "seidh," "seidr," "seithr," or "seith," the term is also used to refer to modern Neopagan reconstructions or emulations of the practice.
Seid-on Sidon

Here it might look as thought the people of the east (Aesir/Aestii culture ?) were taught the magic by the other culture, the Vanir (maybe more Western Scaninavian)

The goddess Freyja is identified in Ynglinga saga as an adept of the mysteries of seid, and it is said that it was she who taught it to Odin: Dˇttir Njar­ar var Freyja. Hon var blˇtgy­ja. Hon kenndi fyrst me­ ┴sum sei­, sem V÷num var tÝtt ('Nj÷r­rĺs daughter was Freyja. She presided over the sacrifice. It was she who first acquainted the Ăsir with sei­r, which was customary among the Vanir').
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

Freya of the Vanir Gods and they live, also one of the 9 worlds, as described below..

In a stanza of the Poetic Edda poem V÷luspß, an unnamed v÷lva mentions the existence of "nine worlds." These worlds are nowhere specifically listed in sequence, but are generally assumed to include Vanaheimr. The other eight are Asgard, ┴lfheimr, Midgard, J÷tunheimr, Svartßlfaheimr, Niflheim, M˙spellsheimr, and possibly Ni­avellir.[9]

Hilda Ellis Davidson comments that exactly where Vanaheim is among the Nine Worlds isn't clear, since "the chief gods Freyr and Njord with a number of others, are represented along with the Ăsir in Asgard, but it seems probable that it was in the underworld." Davidson notes a connection between the Vanir and "the land-spirits who dwelt in mounds and hills and in water

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanaheimr

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#559    The Puzzler

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:14 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 06 December 2010 - 11:04 AM, said:

The Trojan hero Aeneas had a son, Brutus who was allegedly the founder of the Britons. Even the Arthurian legend looks back to this legend for it's heritage. Arthur was of a tribe of Silures cymru. They are described similar to Hector with curly black hair and being fierce warriors. They are sometimes called black celts and are probably linked to the indigenous Iberian celts who had lived there since antiquity. So maybe there were elements of culture that ancient Iberians had a lot in common with the Anatolians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas
Some great points you bought up Slim. Yes, point being, did they really come into Britain from Rome or is the story so visually and culturally impacting, like the story of Troy itself, it is taken to be truth..

Quote

I think I agree with Abe about Frisians being possible Fomorians. Probably this population of tall men was present but not widespread. Interestingly, the Fomoroians are displaced by the Fir Bolg and Tuatha deDannan. I can't help but notice Dan in Dardanus aswell as sounding similar to Diana the Roamn god. Connections all over the place but it is murky or misty.

The Tuatha DÚ Danann and the Fomorians are closely related. Neit, a war god, is an ancestor of both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians
Neit is an ancestor of both...casually thrown in there. Neit..Neith? Athena..Nyhellenia-Minerva, a cloud goddess (in the OLB as she rides a cloud)



Quote

The area of Frisia is really interesting because so much of it was anciently reclaimed land. In marshy areas I'd expect it to be very misty so if there was a place of legend this area of Europe would be a good bet imo. Britanin was also called Albion anciently, deriving from Alba (white). Maybe there is something to it but it is far from clear.
The whole white Alba/Albion thing is very intriguing, white cliffs of chalk at Dover is apparently a possible reason the isle of Britain was called Alba. But Alba Longa is the place in Latium that Rhea Silvia was living, where Aeneus landed to start with. Mont Albans, an extint volcano they lived around in Italy. Alba, the ancient name of Scotland.

Baldr - Bel?

Fomorians again:
The medieval myth of Partholon says that his followers were the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathr˙n CÚitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by CÝocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. Partholon defeated CÝocal in the Battle of Magh Ithe, but all his people later died of plague.

Then came Nemed and his followers. Ireland is said to have been empty for thirty years following the death of Partholon's people, but Nemed and his followers encountered the Fomorians when they arrived. At this point CÚitinn reports another tradition that the Fomorians were seafarers from Africa, descended from Noah's son Ham. Nemed defeated them in several battles, killing their leaders Gann (1) and Sengann (1) (note that there were two Fir Bolg kings of the same name), but two new Fomorian leaders arose: Conand son of Faebar, who lived in Conand's Tower on Tory Island, County Donegal, and Morc son of Dela (note that the first generation of the Fir Bolg were also said to be sons of Dela).

After Nemed's death, Conand and Morc enslaved his people and demanded a heavy tribute: two thirds of their children, grain and cattle. Nemed's son Fergus Lethderg gathered an army of sixty thousand, rose up against them and destroyed Conand's Tower, but Morc attacked them with a huge fleet, and there was great slaughter on both sides. The sea rose over them and drowned most of the survivors: only thirty of Nemed's people escaped in a single ship, scattering to the other parts of the world.


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#560    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:00 PM

It could just be a reference to snow capped mountains. Mount Blanc, the White Mts of the Carpathian mountain range, to mention a couple but no doubt there are more. Albania aswell with the fairly mysterious Illyrians. I like the White Cliffs connection but there is probably more to it. Glastonbury Tor as the Isle of Glass is a starting point, for some reason the isle of Glass is a recurring theme in myths.

Bel maybe connected to Balor aswell as Baldr. Basically it is a reenactment of the maiden who is trapped by the odl god and rescued by the new god of the sun. Fertility ritual or more i don't know.

In Irish mythology, Balor of the Evil Eye (sometimes spelled Balar or Bolar) was a king of the Fomorians, a race of giants. His father was Buarainech and his wife was Cethlenn. According to legend, he lived on Tory Island.

Balor was notable for his eye in the middle of his forehead and one directly opposite at the back,which meant he couldn't be sneaked up on from behind. According to prophecy, Balor was to be killed by his grandson. To avoid his fate, he locked his daughter, Ethlinn, in a tower made of crystal to keep her from becoming pregnant. However, Cian, one of the Tuatha DÚ Danann, with the help of the druidess Birog, managed to enter the tower. She gave birth to triplets by him, but Balor threw them into the ocean. Birog saved one, Lugh, and gave him to Manannan mac Lir, who became his foster father. He was called Lugh Lamhfada and became a member of the Tuatha DÚ Danann.

Lugh led the Tuatha in the second Battle of Magh Tuiredh against the Fomorians. Ogma disarmed Balor during this battle, but Balor killed Nuada with his eye. Lugh shot a sling-stone which drove Balor's eye out the back of his head, where it continued to wreak its deadly power on the Fomorian army. In other versions Lugh blinded Balor with a spear made by Goibniu, or decapitated him and used his eye against the Fomorians.

One legend tells that, when Balor was slain by Lugh, Balor's eye was still open when he fell face first into the ground. Thus his deadly eye beam burned a hole into the earth. Long after, the hole filled with water and became a lake which is now known as Loch na S˙l, or "Lake of the Eye", which is to be found in County Sligo.

The folklorist Alexander Hagerty Krappe (1894-1947) [1] discusses the Balor legend in his book Balor With the Evil Eye: Studies in Celtic and French Literature (1927). Krappe believes Balor comes from a very ancient myth, perhaps, he suggests, going back to fertility rites at the time of the introduction of agriculture, of a woman (the earth) shut away by an old man (the old year), impregnated by another man, whose child (the new year), then kills the old man. Other versions of this myth: Gilgamesh, Osiris, Balder, DanaŰ, Balor in Ireland, the "May Count" in Sweden, and "it has even penetrated to Uganda, where it is told of a local chief."[2] Moreover, according to Krappe, Balor is related to Janus, Kronos, the Serbian monster "Vy,"[3] the Welsh Ysbaddaden Pennkawr [1], and other versions of a two-headed god with an evil eye. Krappe also suggests that the woman may originally have been a cow goddess, such as Hathor, Io or Hera.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balor

http://en.wikipedia....anus_(mythology)

The Fomorians are translated as those who land was swallowed by the sea or something so connetcing them with Frisians is reasonable imo.

The Goddesses can get very confusing. Personally I think there was a single original Mother Goddess but as rivalries between cultures became more prevalent the sole Mother was left behind and variants on a theme were created. The two main variants as I see it being Minerva and Diana aka Athena and Artemis. In the period of Doggerland I expect there would be only one and she would have been the original Neith but possibly during the greek dartk ages or possibly before Athena and Neith became one. This made the cult of Athena that much more palatable to the ancient Europeans who were familiar with Neith or Hel or whatever but were now encouraged to favour Minerva over Diana. Civilization over wilderness. It is complicated though and there is so many ways you can view it.

http://www.janih.com...ck/goddess.html

I have come across legends of cloud ships that would carry the dead away but I can't find the name and my memory gets worse by the day. Anyone heard of this? All I can remember is that Monkey rode a cloud and all I could find was that Baal was known as the 'Rider of Clouds' among many other names.

http://michaelsheise...uncilcoregency/

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#561    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:47 PM

It was Magonia that I was thinking of.

http://magonia.haaan...09/phantomship/

Seems like this legend was at least partially built on the legend of the Flying Dutchman. I was not that familiar with it tbh, had heard the name but thought it was the name of a train, like the Flying Scotsman. LOL

http://en.wikipedia....Flying_Dutchman

These legends of ghost or cloud ships may be more concentrated around the North Sea so I suppose considering a connection to Doggerland is not out of the question though it is unlikely that such a thing exists.

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#562    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:42 PM

Yet there is no evidence for Old Norse (nor the word Niflheim itself) to have existed prior to the first millenium AD, let alone the inundation of Doggerland more than 6000 years before. Nor is there evidence to show that the alleged ancient Irish myths of the Fomorians and Tuatha de Danann existed before Ireland became Christianized.

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#563    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:25 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 December 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

Yet there is no evidence for Old Norse (nor the word Niflheim itself) to have existed prior to the first millenium AD, let alone the inundation of Doggerland more than 6000 years before. Nor is there evidence to show that the alleged ancient Irish myths of the Fomorians and Tuatha de Danann existed before Ireland became Christianized.

cormac

That is what I have tried to point out, Cormac.

It all happened so long ago, and maybe too long ago to have been recorded in myth and/or writing.

And that is also why I asked earlier how long myths can be transmitted orally AND accurately before they are put down on paper or in rock.

I am very much aware of the fact that I might be grasping at straws.

But Niflheim means nothing but a Place of Mists. And Dogger Island maybe have been just that.

It was located in the center of a sea known for it's 'hellish' conditions, and it was smack in the center of the meeting place of colder and warmer currents of the Gulf Stream, and thus creating mists.

I do realize I have no proof whatsoever, but what I say here doesn't come from the twilight zone, it's actually quite logical and reasonable.


#564    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:30 PM

And to Puzz I want to repeat what I said earlier:

There were ancient "Roads to Hell` in Germany and Holland, pilgrimage roads that led to the North Sea.

And there are many, many place names in Holland and Germany with `Hel` in them.

So I don┤t think `Hell` has anything to do with the calm and peaceful Baltic....


#565    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:08 PM

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That is what I have tried to point out, Cormac.

Unsuccessfully too, from the looks of it.

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It all happened so long ago, and maybe too long ago to have been recorded in myth and/or writing.

Considering that the destruction of Doggerland greatly predates Proto-Indo-European (the parent group for most of the languages mentioned)  then any language/oral traditions/etc. from the time would by necessity be wholly unrelated to them. Making any speculation of the more modern languages usage/meaning concerning Doggerland pointless.

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It was located in the center of a sea known for it's 'hellish' conditions, and it was smack in the center of the meeting place of colder and warmer currents of the Gulf Stream, and thus creating mists.

A bit presumptive, is it not, considering that the available evidence (IMO) suggests the Dogger Bank was likely no more than 50-70 feet above sea level at the time. That’s not much of an impediment to climate.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 06 December 2010 - 07:08 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#566    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:22 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 December 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Unsuccessfully too, from the looks of it.



Considering that the destruction of Doggerland greatly predates Proto-Indo-European (the parent group for most of the languages mentioned)  then any language/oral traditions/etc. from the time would by necessity be wholly unrelated to them. Making any speculation of the more modern languages usage/meaning concerning Doggerland pointless.



A bit presumptive, is it not, considering that the available evidence (IMO) suggests the Dogger Bank was likely no more than 50-70 feet above sea level at the time. That’s not much of an impediment to climate.

cormac


I am not a meteorologist, are you?

But I know that even now the Doggers Bank influences the currents in the present North Sea.


And I will bet that it did influence the currents even more when it was still above sea level, together with neighbouring islands.

And my assumptions about the language spoken back then don't come out of thin air: there are scientists (I quoted them in this thread) who assume these people, belonging to the Maglamosian Culture, spoke a pre-/proto-Finno-Ugric language.

The name of the seagoddess, Nehalennia, was a perfect example of a Finno-Ugric name according to one linguist.

I can imagine the later arrivals (Indo-Euopeans) adopted that name, and explained it according to their language.

And much, much later the Romans heard that name (maalähelläjään), and wrote it down, as it sounded in their ears, "Nehalennia".

I have once asked an Italian about 's-Hertogenbosch', a big city in The Netherlands. I asked him to put it down in words.. lol. "Serogabosa" is what he made of it.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 December 2010 - 07:36 PM.


#567    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:56 PM

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But I know that even now the Doggers Bank influences the currents in the present North Sea.

Influencing the currents is one thing, speculating on the meaning and usage of a word (Niflheim) from a language which didn't even exist at the time is something entirely different.

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And my assumptions about the language spoken back then don't come out of thin air...

They do when you add "Niflheim", "Nephilim" or other near modern words into the discussion in an attempt to somehow make them relevant to Doggerland. They're not.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#568    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:06 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 December 2010 - 07:56 PM, said:

Influencing the currents is one thing, speculating on the meaning and usage of a word (Niflheim) from a language which didn't even exist at the time is something entirely different.



They do when you add "Niflheim", "Nephilim" or other near modern words into the discussion in an attempt to somehow make them relevant to Doggerland. They're not.

cormac


I think I have to explain a bit more.

The ancestors of the Nordic people met the people who were living at the coasts of the newly formed North Sea.

They were stunned by what they heard, and they integrated what they heard into their own myths.

Imagine: you meet people, they tell you about a deluge. A deluge that flooded an area of land that was their homeland, their very own paradise.

These people you meet tell you they lost their friends, family, and everything they know of.

They'd tell you about their homeland that got flooded by something HUGE, a tsunami as we would call it now, a big and silent wave to them.

In their eyes it would be nothing but a verdict of the Gods, to condemn them to annihilation.


You would be impressed, like I would be.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 December 2010 - 08:15 PM.


#569    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:17 PM

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The ancestors of the Nordic people met the people who were living at the coasts of the newly formed North Sea.

No need. I understand the connection you're attempting to make. I just find it faulty, particularly considering that the early peoples of Scandinavia and such prior to c.2000 BC WERE NOT the same people who lived during and shortly after the disappearance of Doggerland.

Quote

The hunter-gatherers who inhabited the southern coast of Scandinavia 4,000 years ago were lactose intolerant. This has been shown by a new study carried out by researchers at Uppsala University and Stockholm University. The study, which has been published in the journal BMC Evolutionary Biology, supports the researchers' earlier conclusion that today's Scandinavians are not descended from the Stone Age people in question but from a group that arrived later.

"This group of hunter-gatherers differed significantly from modern Swedes in terms of the DNA sequence that we generally associate with a capacity to digest lactose into adulthood," says Anna Linderholm, formerly of the Archaeological Research Laboratory, Stockholm University, presently at University College Cork, Ireland.

According to the researchers, two possible explanations exist for the DNA differences.

"One possibility is that these differences are evidence of a powerful selection process, through which the Stone Age hunter-gatherers' genes were lost due to some significant advantage associated with the capacity to digest milk," says Anna Linderholm. "The other possibility is that we simply are not descended from this group of Stone Age people."

The capacity to consume unprocessed milk into adulthood is regarded as having been of great significance for human prehistory.
"This capacity is closely associated with the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies," says Anders Götherström of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Uppsala University.

He serves as coordinator of LeCHE (Lactase persistence and the early Cultural History of Europe), an EU-funded research project focusing on the significance of milk for European prehistory.

"In the present case, we are inclined to believe that the findings are indicative of what we call "gene flow," in other words, migration to the region at some later time of some new group of people, with whom we are genetically similar," he says. "This accords with the results of previous studies."

The researchers' current work involves investigating the genetic makeup of the earliest agriculturalists in Scandinavia, with an eye to potential answers to questions about our ancestors.

Stone Age Scandinavians unable to digest milk

So on what basis are you, Abramelin, claiming to know who the people in and near Doggerland c.6200 BC were, particularly as it appears they've been superceded (as it were) by another group of people more than 4000 years later.

Edit to add:  Since there is no concensus, AFAIK, on when the pre-/proto-Finno-Ugric language group existed, it's also rather meaningless at this point to try to ascribe any connection between it and Doggerland.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 06 December 2010 - 09:07 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#570    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:36 PM

I have posted text from another webpage here, but I can't find it again.

So here's a new page:

The history of human settlement in what is present day Norway goes back at least 11,000 years, to the late Paleolithic. Archaeological finds in the county of M°re og Romsdal have been dated to 9,200 BC and are probably the remains of settlers from Doggerland, an area now submerged in the North Sea, but at the time a landbridge that connected the present day British Isles with Jutland. The Fosna-Hensbacka culture inhabited parts of Norway about 8300 BC to 7300 BC. Petroglyphs dating from the Neolithic Age (in Norway 4000 BC to 1800 BC) show scenes of hunter-gatherers. More permanent settlements developed during the Bronze Age (1800 BC to 400 BC) and Iron Age. The earliest runes (an inscription in North Germanic) that have been found were inscribed on an arrowhead dating from about 200 AD. Many more inscriptions appear until 800 AD; a number of small kingdoms developed during these centuries.

http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Norway


SO, it were scientists, NOT ME, who assumed people from Doggerland - based on archeological finds - settled on (the south east coast of) Norway.
==

And I am absolutely sure I posted in this thread about scientistst assuming the people of the Maglamosian Culture must have talked a form of proto-Finno-Ugric.

I cant find it right now, but I also know you were there when I posted it.

And if you are out to make me look like a gullible ass, beware: I am determined to retrace what I posted before.

Heh.

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Edited by Abramelin, 06 December 2010 - 09:57 PM.





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