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Doggerland


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#601    Abramelin

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:28 AM

You obviously skipped passed most of what I wrote.

It's ok, I am getting used to it.

Brainstorming is not one of your 'hobbies'.


#602    cormac mac airt

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:33 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 December 2010 - 12:28 AM, said:

You obviously skipped passed most of what I wrote.

It's ok, I am getting used to it.

Brainstorming is not one of your 'hobbies'.

Nope, I read it all Abe. You and I just have VASTLY different ideas of what constitutes 'brainstorming'.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#603    Abramelin

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:41 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 December 2010 - 12:33 AM, said:

Nope, I read it all Abe. You and I just have VASTLY different ideas of what constitutes 'brainstorming'.

cormac

Yeah.

I think it's about quickly bringing up anything connected to the topic at hand, even when it's not obvious to the others there is a connection.

But maybe I am wrong.


#604    Abramelin

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:52 AM

And again: I just post about possibilities.

I have never claimed that what I suggested was proven fact or based on fact.

Because we do not know much about Doggerland or the people who once lived there, I post as much links to myths and science as I can dig up.

I am a skeptic, but nevertheless I am also not too scared to talk about a possible option, a possibility. And all that based on what scientists said/claimed, even though it were not the scientists you have a high regard of, or even know of.

You post about a linguist, and from then on you assume I must be wrong. I have posted about other scientists claiming something that contradicts what your scientist said.

For me it's play. What is it to you??


#605    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 04:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 December 2010 - 12:33 AM, said:

Nope, I read it all Abe. You and I just have VASTLY different ideas of what constitutes 'brainstorming'.

cormac
Abe's idea of brainstorming is exactly what brainstorming is. A group of people who put forth any and every idea they have, trying to keep within boundaries, it also constitutes any idea one has. It has been proven it is not overly effective in practice but it is what it is, that is a group of people putting forth any ideas to try and come up with a solution. It does not have to involve any thing constituted by proofs.

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#606    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 04:43 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 December 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Cormac, what I said about the 'Nephilim/Nef Hille' was just in jest. There is no Nef Hille in the OLB, I just used the OLB way of twisting and distorting ancient names of gods, and have some fun with it.

About genetics: I know it's what we call an 'exact science', but it's conclusions based on new facts change so rapidly that we just have to wait for a century for any definative conclusions about human migrations.

"Mish-mash"....

What I am doing in this thead is what is known as 'brainstorming', anyone just blurts out what comes up in her/his mind.

I never said that what I posted was the truth, I just tried out options based on what science and history had to offer.

Can we agree to disagree?


++++

EDITED to add:

The Maglamosian culture spread from England, across Doggerland, to north-western Russia.

After the end of the last Ice Age there were many large ice lakes bordering the retreating ice sheats.

People from England could have been in contact with people from Russia by means of travelling with boats and/or canoes.

And a lot easier than travelling by land.

So this is what I think: that culture *AND* its language spread along that area. But at some point in time, the people at the east developed their own language, the language we now know to be proto-Uralic, or proto-Finno-Ugric.

But remnants of that language got preseverved in the language of the people that entered the western-Euopean area, the pre-Indo-Europeans that invaded Europe long after the end of the last ice age.


Yep, I know, my theory about the name of the Dutch goddess, "Nehallennia", may be off, but it was my assumption that this name got preserved as "Hell"/"Halja"/"Hulle"/"Holle" as the name the Frisians gave to the North Sea. And the Scandinavians had a goddess called "Hell" who ruled about an underworld covered by mists.... an island protected by walls and with a well that was the origin of a lot of rivers... like Doggerland.

Originally 'Nehallennia" may have been an erratic Roman translation/interpretation of "maalähelläjään", or something similar, the 'Land near Ice".

I know you don't like what I am doing here, but I have told you many times I am not convinced about what I suggested.

I am just trying out things, hoping someone gets a sparkling brainwave, and tells us about something not one of us thought of before.

This is the thread to show you have imagination combined with science.

I am not waiting for some 'channeler' to post bs based on his/her dreams, ok?

Cormac, I do aprreciate your critical view, really.

But I also hope you are able to appreciate me giving options.

Even though these options are not proven facts.


.

I see the same thing with the writing in the OLB and Latin, what I bolded above, it's like a circle, it goes in, gets contaminated and comes out different but underneath there is many similarities. A word we think came from Latin or such may actually derive from elsewhere, like bedroom.  :rolleyes:

Quote

anyone just blurts out what comes up in her/his mind.
I'm good at that, usually it just spills out and takes over my hands on the keyboard.

Nehellenia is showing to be a great Goddess and many are referencing her as being a form of the Goddess Hel/Holle.

Is there really all these different Goddesses or many forms of a few?

Could Athena really be Minerva who is Ne/a/yhellenia who became Hel?

A sailing goddess from the land of mist who protected them from a watery fate that had befallen them earlier. The apples represent immortality gained if indeed you didn't make it..? The dog, became Cerberus, who guarded you and watched over intruders, the ship, sailed by her people, taking them to their destinations, possibly hell itself, if the case may be, as I mentioned the boat resounded Charon's boat to me, that takes you to Hades, why do they sail to Hades anyway? It must have been offshore.

This Nephilim/Niflheim is too much for me to ignore and in the context of the giants being Nephilim in the Bible, it reeks of Northern Europeans from the land of mist, unbelievers from Hel being in the Levant. I'm not even going to go there here, but I know what it means to me, unless people think they were, what? I can barely come up with an alternative...

Edited by The Puzzler, 11 December 2010 - 04:56 AM.

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#607    cormac mac airt

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:15 AM

Quote

You post about a linguist, and from then on you assume I must be wrong.

I assumed nothing. I posted about Professor Janhunen, whose specialty IS linguistics and even asked for anyone with evidence showing he was wrong to provide same. Nobody, including yourself, has done so to date. So again, if you or anyone else can show that he's wrong, then here's another chance to do so.

As opposed to Svante Paabo, who actually is a renowned geneticist, your Andres Paabo from page 8 (this thread) is an artist with no actual expertise in genetics or linguistics, AFAIK. That doesn't make him a scientist, by any means.

///////////

Quote

A group of people who put forth any and every idea they have, trying to keep within boundaries....

To keep within boundaries, one has to know WHAT THE BOUNDARIES ARE. Failing to search for available information/evidence, or completely ignoring the existance of such solely for the purpose of tossing any and every idea back and forth in an attempt to claim that all ideas/opinions are equal is faulty reasoning, IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#608    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:21 AM

I know some of this has been posted before but to reinterate:
In March 2007, the New York Times ran an article discussing the DNA evidence for the theory that the English and the Irish are both largely descended from late Ice Age migrants, with only a small genetic contribution from more recent invaders. This article extensively cited the conclusions of Stephen Oppenheimer, but it also included these eye-catching paragraphs:

Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion. . . .

Germanic is usually assumed to have split into three branches: West Germanic, which includes German and Dutch; East Germanic, the language of the Goths and Vandals; and North Germanic, consisting of the Scandinavian languages. Dr. Forster’s analysis shows English is not an off-shoot of West Germanic, as usually assumed, but is a branch independent of the other three, which also implies a greater antiquity. . . .

Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

Foster's ideas have understandably not been well-received by linguists. He is, after all, a mere geneticist -- and one whose conclusions fly in the face of all conventional theory. However, if only because they align so closely with my prior speculations, I have to take them seriously.



English is NOT an offshoot of West Germanic, but a branch INDEPENDANT of the 3 and implies a GREATER ANTIQUITY.

The OLB gives clues to this actually and whatever one's views are on it, it does tell us that the language they are using, which looks to be an old form of Frisian, which co-incidently enough, is the closest language to English.

It is my opinion the original speakers of the English language, a separate and distinct language from German was the language of the people of Doggerland and the only reason Frisian is not as English as English now is because it got taken over by mainland Germanic, which also became Dutch.


The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland.. However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.
http://www.disclose....ysm-t31201.html

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#609    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:27 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 December 2010 - 05:15 AM, said:

I assumed nothing. I posted about Professor Janhunen, whose specialty IS linguistics and even asked for anyone with evidence showing he was wrong to provide same. Nobody, including yourself, has done so to date. So again, if you or anyone else can show that he's wrong, then here's another chance to do so.

As opposed to Svante Paabo, who actually is a renowned geneticist, your Andres Paabo from page 8 (this thread) is an artist with no actual expertise in genetics or linguistics, AFAIK. That doesn't make him a scientist, by any means.

///////////



To keep within boundaries, one has to know WHAT THE BOUNDARIES ARE. Failing to search for available information/evidence, or completely ignoring the existance of such solely for the purpose of tossing any and every idea back and forth in an attempt to claim that all ideas/opinions are equal is faulty reasoning, IMO.

cormac
The boundary only has to be the topic at hand. When people brainstorm they don't sit there citing references and proofs for an idea they have, it's a way to explore any options put forward.

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#610    cormac mac airt

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:48 AM

Quote

The boundary only has to be the topic at hand.

Having a reasonable understanding of the subject matter IS PART OF the topic at hand. People brainstorming need not cite references, etc. but it behooves them to know, at some basic level, what the heck they're on about.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#611    SlimJim22

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:12 PM

Hel is a remarkably complex goddess from reading this article. Later than I expected, originating in the 2nd century CE according to the link. Can't see many characteristics similar to Athena or Minerva either as neiter were related to the Underworld from what I know.

http://www.angelfire...fapoet/hel.html

It may be that over time syncretism took place and Hel took on other characteristics related to grain and fertility. IMO two better fits for Hel are Persephone and Hecate more that Athena and Minerva, both of whom I identify with the growth of civilization. Civilization as the Greeks and Romans knew it was not high on the agenda of Norse, Germanics or Celts.

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#612    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 01:14 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 11 December 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

Hel is a remarkably complex goddess from reading this article. Later than I expected, originating in the 2nd century CE according to the link. Can't see many characteristics similar to Athena or Minerva either as neiter were related to the Underworld from what I know.

http://www.angelfire...fapoet/hel.html

It may be that over time syncretism took place and Hel took on other characteristics related to grain and fertility. IMO two better fits for Hel are Persephone and Hecate more that Athena and Minerva, both of whom I identify with the growth of civilization. Civilization as the Greeks and Romans knew it was not high on the agenda of Norse, Germanics or Celts.
Yes, now I think about it some more and read up some more, I agree Hel does not resemble any of them really and seems to be a much later incarnation of Goddess. Still, she lives in Niflheim, go to Hel becomes a way to say 'die'. I think by the Roman period and the introduction of Christianity just after, the form of Hel was more a caricature of death and Hel had become the place of heathen pagans, who lived in Hel, which imo, did become Hell.

Proserpina is mentioned as a possible candidate, that is Persephone.

Both Nahellenia and Hel however are both goddesses of Niflheim, so imo Hel maybe became a later version, the Aesir pantheon is later than the Vanir, and I think the arrival of new people in the area of the Aestii, that is Estonia, took over existing Vanir Gods more associated with the Western Europeans.

Here's a version that places Odin as coming from Turkey...  
The Prose Eddas:
The present author has consulted two translations of this work,
that by Anderson (on-line version, 2004), and Brodeur (1916). In the Prologue to his
work, Snorri sets the backdrop to the sagas to follow. He speaks of the Norse god Odin
as the progenitor of a long line of rulers of the Scandinavian and Germanic countries, and
gives him an ancestral home – Asia. Snorri speaks of Odin making “ready to journey out
of Turkland, and was accompanied by a great number of people, young folk and old, men
and women; and they had with them much goods of great price.” Furthermore, “They
made no end of their journeying till they were come north into the land that is now called
Saxland [Germany]; there Odin tarried for a long space, and took the land into his own
hand, far and wide” (p. eight). Here Odin set up three of his sons as “land – wardens”, one in
East Saxland, another in Westphalia, and a third in Frankland, and “from all these are
sprung many and great houses” (p. eight). Odin then headed northward, installing another of
his sons as ruler of Jutland, and proceeded on to Sweden whose king was Gylfi. “When
the king learned of the coming of these men of Asia, who were called Asir, he went to
meet them, and made offer to them that Odin should have such power in his realm as he
himself wielded.” Continuing, Snorri reported that, “The fields and the choice lands in
that place seemed fair to Odin, and he chose for himself the site of a city which is now
called Sigtun. There he established chieftains in the fashion which had prevailed in
Turkland; he set up also twelve head – men to be doomsmen over the people and to judge
the laws of the land; and he ordained also all laws as, there had been before, in Turkland,
and according to the customs of the Turks. After that he went into the north, until he was
stopped by the sea, which men thought lay around all the lands of the earth; and there he
set his son over this kingdom, which is now called Norway. This king was Saemingr; the
kings of Norway trace their lineage from him, and so do also the jarls and the other
mighty men, as is said in the Haleygjatal. Odin had with him one of his sons called
Yngvi, who was king in Sweden after him; and those houses come from him that are
named Ynglings. The Asir took wives of the land for themselves, and some also for their
sons.” (p. 13)
Apparently then this migration from the land of the Turkish peoples was largely a male
phenomenon, and thus there should be seen in the genetic patterns of the Norse and
Swedes some percentage of Asian Y chromosomes (male lineage), but little or no trace of
Asiatic female migration (mitochondrial DNA, female lineage).

http://castacon.artf...=2291&start=180

There is, in the Sami at least:

Anthropologists have been studying the Sami people for hundreds of years for their assumed physical and cultural differences from the rest of Europeans. Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal linages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and the U5b, ancient in Europe. By contrast, the most common paternal linage among the Sami indicates an Asian origin, who may represent a Finno-Ugric speaking people.[21] Other haplogroups suggest additional input from other populations at various times - see main article Population genetics of the Sami.

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#613    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:40 PM

Just to add to the post to Slim:


Nehellenia:
The name could therefore be interpreted as ' [spirit] in the boat' of 'goddess of the vessel'. In Romano-Celtic times she was assimilated into the cult of the Matres/Matronae with their fertility function, their function as protectors of 'hearth and home' and their function in protecting travellers. This last aspect of Nehalennia's cult is by far the most interesting and the largest. Many of the shrines dedicated to her were erected by naval traders, probably after survival of a storm which would explain her association with naval vessels. Other aspects of the goddess' cult are the apples she holds and the dog that almost always accompanies her. The dog as a sacred animal is associated with divination. It is also a creature associated with both hunting and the otherworld. In many cultures apples are the food of the gods and are associated with the otherworld, such as in the Celtic realm of Afallon. It is certainly possible that, in common with other deities associated with transportation, Nehalennia was perceived as a psychopomp possibly transporting the souls of the dead across the waters to the isles of the blessed.

It seems that Hel resided at the location (Niflheim) while Nehallenia maybe transported the souls there as well as protected sailors from this fate.

Here the story of Persephone, who resembles Hel, sounds like a goddess or priestess was killed by an earthquake or such to me. Hades, death, burst through a cleft in the earth. I notice she has white arms.
Persephone:
The story of her abduction is traditionally referred to as the Rape of Persephone. In the later Olympian pantheon of Classical Greece, Persephone is given a father: according to Hesiod's Theogony, Persephone was the daughter produced by the union of Demeter and Zeus: "And he [Zeus] came to the bed of bountiful Demeter, who bore white-armed Persephone, stolen by Hades from her mother's side." Unlike every other offspring of an Olympian pairing of deities, Persephone has no stable position at Olympus. Persephone used to live far away from the other deities, a goddess within Nature herself before the days of planting seeds and nurturing plants. In the Olympian telling,[10] the gods Hermes, Ares, Apollo, and Hephaestus, had all wooed Persephone; but Demeter rejected all their gifts and hid her daughter away from the company of the Olympian deities. Thus, Persephone lived a peaceful life before she became the goddess of the underworld, which, according to Olympian mythographers, did not occur until Hades abducted her and brought her into it. She was innocently picking flowers with some nymphs—Athena, and Artemis, the Homeric hymn says—or Leucippe, or Oceanids—in a field in Enna when Hades came to abduct her, bursting through a cleft in the earth. Later, the nymphs were changed by Demeter into the Sirens for not having interfered. Life came to a standstill as the devastated Demeter, goddess of the Earth, searched everywhere for her lost daughter. Helios, the sun, who sees everything, eventually told Demeter what had happened.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Persephone

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#614    SlimJim22

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 03:07 PM

Fasniating stuff. I do see hints of an Asian origin of Odin. Turkey is a land of many mysteries and the crossing of the Black Sea puts you within easy reach of the north.

The Y DNA link with the Sami would seem to imply an ancient migration when I had thought a later one was more likely. It is not easy to make out for me  but maybe the skeptics could breakdown the genetics and explain what it tells us in terms of rough dates of migration.

I think it's a good bet that goddesses were important to ancient Europe and cults like Persephone could well have come into Greece from the west. Explaining why the legends of the apples remained so important in Britain.

The dogs is a strange one, links to the Guanches or Cerberus I don't know. The boat is more common as most ancient views of the after life incorporated a ship of the dead and a river to the Underworld. Did you read about the cloud ships of Magonia. I thought was an interesting piece of folklore that could link to the ship of souls, clouds and mist. However, it seems to have been jumped on by UFO fanatics.

I think your assesement of Hel and Nifelheim as being the origin of Hel is viable. Tartarus was a cold place like Hel is described so I am curious whence Hell turned into a fiery place. Bit confused over that.  :wacko: That's all I got.

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#615    Abramelin

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:46 PM

As soon as they discovered something new concerning Doggerland, I will be back.

I am not interested in bickering about 'what could be'.





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