Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 3 votes

Doggerland


  • Please log in to reply
862 replies to this topic

#616    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:09 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 December 2010 - 05:15 AM, said:

I assumed nothing. I posted about Professor Janhunen, whose specialty IS linguistics and even asked for anyone with evidence showing he was wrong to provide same. Nobody, including yourself, has done so to date. So again, if you or anyone else can show that he's wrong, then here's another chance to do so.

As opposed to Svante Paabo, who actually is a renowned geneticist, your Andres Paabo from page 8 (this thread) is an artist with no actual expertise in genetics or linguistics, AFAIK. That doesn't make him a scientist, by any means.


You are just being scared, and I wonder what makes you scared.

To me this is just play with facts, to you, .... I don't know what it is to you.



A question: I assume you respect Kmt_Sesh for what he knows about ancient Egypt.

He is not an official Egyptologist, he just studied Egyptology for 20 or more years.

He is like an "Andres Paabo" to me, hah.

People may not have official credentials, but they may know more than we know because they studied a topic for many years.

Paabo may be nothing but an artist, but he sure did study ancient Finnic history.

Are you a real geneticist, or did you just study it a lot?

We can go on for this like ever, right??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 December 2010 - 10:16 PM.


#617    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:34 PM

Quote

You are just being scared...

Nope, just saddened by the quality of much of what I read here.

Quote

To me this is just play with facts, to you, .... I don't know what it is to you.

Playing with facts wouldn't include throwing the most baseless of speculation in the mix as well, as if it's meaningful. But hey, if you don't wish to be taken seriously then it's fine by me.

Quote

He is not an official Egyptologist, he just studied Egyptology for 20 or more years.

Kmt_sesh has worked long enough and close enough to the field of Egyptology to have a much better than average understanding of Ancient Egypt, whereas your Andreas Paabo has even stated that his site "is currently a layman-type site, not scholarly, initially created for fun". Between the two Kmt_sesh has the greater credibility, IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#618    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

Aus Der Box Skeptisch

    Unknown title error

  • Member
  • 3,233 posts
  • Joined:19 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:arizona (originally the wisconsin/minnesota area eh!)

Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:23 PM

Nod

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#619    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:27 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 December 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

Nope, just saddened by the quality of much of what I read here.



Playing with facts wouldn't include throwing the most baseless of speculation in the mix as well, as if it's meaningful. But hey, if you don't wish to be taken seriously then it's fine by me.



Kmt_sesh has worked long enough and close enough to the field of Egyptology to have a much better than average understanding of Ancient Egypt, whereas your Andreas Paabo has even stated that his site "is currently a layman-type site, not scholarly, initially created for fun". Between the two Kmt_sesh has the greater credibility, IMO.

cormac

We can go on bickering like this for a very long time, but I am willing to invite this Paabo, and then we will know what he knows.

But it's my idea that he studied Finnic history a lot, and yeah, as a layman. A layman willing to spend a lot of time researching and investigating, for years.

From what I read what Kmt_Sesh posted, he did the same. And I respect him for that.

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 11 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

Nod

Is that all? A 'nod'?

To whom? To what? And why?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 December 2010 - 09:07 PM.


#620    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:31 PM

It appears to me some people don't understand the word 'play'.

This thread is not a scientific investigation about Doggerland, this is a thread about 'possibilities'.

But possibilities within the scientific realm.

Oh yeah, with added stuff from ancient legends.

Have I not said a couple of times the material in this thread is good enough to write a novel about?

Well, some authors already did, and I have no doubts some of them read this thread.

Google is your greatest friend when you are busy writing a book....

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 December 2010 - 09:09 PM.


#621    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,073 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

  • I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious. ~ Einstein

Posted 14 December 2010 - 05:42 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 December 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

It appears to me some people don't understand the word 'play'.

This thread is not a scientific investigation about Doggerland, this is a thread about 'possibilities'.

But possibilities within the scientific realm.

Oh yeah, with added stuff from ancient legends.

Have I not said a couple of times the material in this thread is good enough to write a novel about?

Well, some authors already did, and I have no doubts some of them read this thread.

Google is your greatest friend when you are busy writing a book....

.

I understand it. Others can stay in their current dogma'd paradigms for all I care.

Do you think it possible that as per the article I linked (and you have read before) that it is actually English it self that has come from Doggerland?

Just your thoughts, no need to provide evidence or stay to some conformed structure.

The article has told us it could be a possibility.

Edit: English, as in some kind of proto-English/Frisian language.

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland.. However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 December 2010 - 05:48 AM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#622    Flashbangwollap

Flashbangwollap

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 957 posts
  • Joined:13 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

  • What is the bottom line?

Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:09 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 14 December 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

I understand it. Others can stay in their current dogma'd paradigms for all I care.

Do you think it possible that as per the article I linked (and you have read before) that it is actually English it self that has come from Doggerland?

Just your thoughts, no need to provide evidence or stay to some conformed structure.

The article has told us it could be a possibility.

Edit: English, as in some kind of proto-English/Frisian language.

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland.. However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.


Nicely put and my thoughts exactly. Need I remind anyone of the Royal English heritage that has strong German ties. Oh and Greek too???




#623    SlimJim22

SlimJim22

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,682 posts
  • Joined:10 Dec 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wales

  • "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." Carl Jung

Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:46 PM

Here's an article that discusses the PIE homeland as being the Black Sea region. However, I could see how Doggerland is a plauasable alternative. With no records of that far back it's near impossible to know anything for sure and direction of laguage transmission is a such a thing.

http://www.proto-english.org/o3.html

The general accepted theory as I udnerstand it, states that PIE was spread west from Anatolia by farmers and it was taken east by Kurgan horse breeders. This is all following the flooding of the Black sea so prior to that it is possible that Doggerland and the Black sea were the borders of the PIE culture and post flood the spread made it look as if it was being taken west for the first time. The link talks about the diversity of IE languages. 75 in total I think and such diversity may have needed a very, very long time to spread and diversify as much as it has done. My head always end up banging trying to uderstand languages so I better leave off it.  :wacko:

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#624    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 14 December 2010 - 08:46 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 14 December 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

I understand it. Others can stay in their current dogma'd paradigms for all I care.

Do you think it possible that as per the article I linked (and you have read before) that it is actually English it self that has come from Doggerland?

Just your thoughts, no need to provide evidence or stay to some conformed structure.

The article has told us it could be a possibility.

Edit: English, as in some kind of proto-English/Frisian language.

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland.. However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.


>>> "Do you think it possible that as per the article I linked (and you have read before) that it is actually English it self that has come from Doggerland?"

Yes, and it was Stephen Oppenheimer who gave me the idea.....




----

EDIT:

Maybe not based on an opinion by a scientist, but I assume you will like it, nevertheless (and I posted it before):

"In April 2007, an article appeared describing how archaeologists were mapping a "lost country" beneath what is now the North Sea, between Britain and the Netherlands.  Hunter-gatherer communities had thrived there between about 10,000 and 6000 BC, when it was drowned by rising sea levels as the last of the Ice Age glaciers melted.

In the map, present-day Britain is shown on the left, with part of Ireland  beyond it.  The present-day Netherlands are on the right, and Doggerland is in between and connected to both.

A later article from July 2008 (which now appears to be available only as paid content) provided additional details, including the provocative notion that "Mesolithic people have in the past been depicted by researchers as restless nomads and Doggerland as a land bridge through which they passed without leaving a trace. The new map suggests that, on the contrary, Doggerland would have been an ideal environment for them to linger in."  

In fact, the article suggests that Doggerland may have been such a rich environment that its inhabitants were not nomads at all, but had the luxury of a sedentary lifestyle -- something that has been available to hunter-gatherers in only a few optimal locations, such as prehistoric Japan and the Pacific Northwest.  It seems as though we might conceive of Doggerland almost as a kind of local, small-scale Atlantis, whose gradual submergence forced its inhabitants to migrate to Britain on the west and the Netherlands on the east.  As they did so, they could have maintained their sedentary ways by acquiring the new techniques of agriculture, which were just then arriving from the east and south.

Additional evidence is provided by the Frisian language and culture.  These days, the Frisians amount to some 400,000 people living in one province of the Netherlands and speaking their own distinctive language.  In the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, however, they extended much further up and down the North Sea coast.  (The pale circle on the map indicates roughly the present location of Friesland.)

Frisian has the distinction of being the closest of any language to English.  There is even a bit of traditional doggerel which was concocted to demonstrate the point.  It runs, "'Good butter and good cheese' is good English and good Fries."   (Some excellent translations of Bob Dylan songs into Frisian help make the case as well.)

The unique closeness of this relationship has always provided something of a problem for the theory that English is descended from the languages of German and Danish invaders who came from much further east than Friesland..  However, if we accept that both English and Frisian have been spoken in their current locations for the last 10,000 years -- and that the proto-English which gave rise to both of them was also the language of lost Doggerland -- the paradoxes vanish.

The only unanswered questions that remain have to do with what the the potentially sophisticated Mesolithic culture of Doggerland might actually have been like -- and what traces it may have left in the societies on either side of the North Sea that it influenced."



http://www.enter.net...doggerland.html

Edited by Abramelin, 14 December 2010 - 08:55 PM.


#625    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:06 PM

Maybe by someone drunk or not knowing what s/he is talking about (too many shrooms, perhaps) or just a layman, but here is something else I posted before:


The language shift from Finno-Ugric to Indo-European in the western
region occurred during the period  5,500–3,000 BC when agriculture
advanced from the south, mainly from the Band Ceramic, or LBK, region,
bringing it to those regions inhabited by Finno-Ugric-speaking hunters. The
spread of agriculture and with it the Indo-European language to the north
took the form primarily of cultural and linguistic diffusion, not demic
diffusion. In other words, it was only agriculture and the Indo-European
language that spread; there was no  migration of people. The people
remained largely where they were and only agricultural skills and linguistic
skills (as a consequence of the change of the subsistence system and
language) were transferred. This idea has been put forward by the
archaeologist Marek Zvelebil
, for  example, and it is now generally
accepted (for example, by Colin Renfrew and Pavel Dolukhanov) (see Map
15, where the boundary of black dots shows how far agriculture spread


http://www.ling.hels...60.1.9.WIIK.pdf



Maglemosian (ca. 9500 BC–6000 BC) is the name given to a culture of the early Epipaleolithic period in Northern Europe. In Scandinavia, the culture is succeeded by the Kongemose culture.

The actual name came from an archeological site in Denmark, named Maglemose at Mullerup on western Zealand, where the first settlement was found in 1900.[1] During the following century a long series of similar settlements were excavated from England to Poland and from Skåne in Sweden to northern France.



Now, I really want a REAL linguist (= NOT someone who knows how to Google and pretend to be knowledgabe) how they can determine language boundaries in time that accuractly.





http://en.wikipedia....emosian_culture

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 December 2010 - 09:10 PM.


#626    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:16 PM

I am dumb, I am ignorant, I am drunk, I am heavy-handed, I am rude, and so on.

But people, please believe me, I check my sources.

All I do is try out possible scenarios.

Within scientific bounds.

And all I get is some guy - "Hey Cormac" - quoting only ONE scientist who contradicts what I suggested could have happened.

Great.


#627    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,073 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

  • I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious. ~ Einstein

Posted 15 December 2010 - 04:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 December 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

Now, I really want a REAL linguist (= NOT someone who knows how to Google and pretend to be knowledgabe) how they can determine language boundaries in time that accuractly.





http://en.wikipedia....emosian_culture

.
Good question.

Were the inhabitants of Europe Finno-Urgit speakers prior to an IE arrival....is that what you are trying to determine (as well as other things)?



I was reading up some more and a bit after the Maglemosian culture is the Ertebolle culture and found they seem quite developed, just of interest:

The Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC-3950 BC) (Danish pronunciation: [ˈæɐdəˌbølə]) is the name of a hunter-gatherer and fisher, pottery-making culture dating to the end of the Mesolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland.


The blubber lamp was molded from a single piece of clay. The use of such lamps suggests some household activity in the huts after dark.

The flintstone industry evolved a high and unified standard with small and flake axes, long lithic flakes (knives) and arrow heads. However, tools of many materials were in use: wood prongs and points, antler parts, carved bone tools.

[edit] Art
Paddles from Tybrind Vig show traces of highly developed and artistic woodcarving. This is an example of the embellishment of functional pieces. The population also polished and engraved non-functional or not obviously functional pieces of bone or antler. Motifs were predominantly geometric with some anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms. Also in evidence (for example, at Fanø) are polished amber representations of animals, such as birds, boars, and bears. Jewelry was made of animal teeth or decorative shells. To what extent any of these pieces were symbolic of wealth and status is not clear.

[edit] Funerary customs
Cemeteries, such as the ones at Vedbæk and Skateholm, give a "sedentary" character to the settlements. Red ochre and deer antlers were placed in some graves, but not others. Some social distinctions may therefore have been made. There was some appreciation of sexual dimorphism: the women wore necklaces and belts of animal teeth and shells. No special body position was used. Both burial and cremation were practiced. At Møllegabet, an individual was buried in a dugout, which some see as the beginning of Scandinavian boat burials.

Skateholm contained also a dog cemetery. Dog graves were prepared and gifted the same as human, with ochre, antler, and grave goods. In either history or prehistory the dog is an invaluable animal and is often treated as one of us.

http://en.wikipedia....ebølle_culture

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 December 2010 - 04:39 PM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#628    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 15 December 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

Good question.

Were the inhabitants of Europe Finno-Urgit speakers prior to an IE arrival....is that what you are trying to determine (as well as other things)?



I was reading up some more and a bit after the Maglemosian culture is the Ertebolle culture and found they seem quite developed, just of interest:

The Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC-3950 BC) (Danish pronunciation: [ˈæɐdəˌbølə]) is the name of a hunter-gatherer and fisher, pottery-making culture dating to the end of the Mesolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland.


The blubber lamp was molded from a single piece of clay. The use of such lamps suggests some household activity in the huts after dark.

The flintstone industry evolved a high and unified standard with small and flake axes, long lithic flakes (knives) and arrow heads. However, tools of many materials were in use: wood prongs and points, antler parts, carved bone tools.

[edit] Art
Paddles from Tybrind Vig show traces of highly developed and artistic woodcarving. This is an example of the embellishment of functional pieces. The population also polished and engraved non-functional or not obviously functional pieces of bone or antler. Motifs were predominantly geometric with some anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms. Also in evidence (for example, at Fanø) are polished amber representations of animals, such as birds, boars, and bears. Jewelry was made of animal teeth or decorative shells. To what extent any of these pieces were symbolic of wealth and status is not clear.

[edit] Funerary customs
Cemeteries, such as the ones at Vedbæk and Skateholm, give a "sedentary" character to the settlements. Red ochre and deer antlers were placed in some graves, but not others. Some social distinctions may therefore have been made. There was some appreciation of sexual dimorphism: the women wore necklaces and belts of animal teeth and shells. No special body position was used. Both burial and cremation were practiced. At Møllegabet, an individual was buried in a dugout, which some see as the beginning of Scandinavian boat burials.

Skateholm contained also a dog cemetery. Dog graves were prepared and gifted the same as human, with ochre, antler, and grave goods. In either history or prehistory the dog is an invaluable animal and is often treated as one of us.

http://en.wikipedia....ebølle_culture

It has been suggested the people living in this area - the Maglemosian culture - spoke some form of Proto-Finno-Ugric, yes. Not a form of proto-Basque, but proto-Finno-Ugric. The real Finno Ugric birth-ground may be located in North Western Russia, but this language group didnt just drop out of the sky. The people living on the coasts of the ice lakes that formed after the end of the last ice age must have been in contact; sailing is a lot more easier than travelling by land, and so people from ancient England could have been in regular contact with people living in North Western Russia.


And the Ertebølle culture is out of this question because they came after, and were/became influenced/mixed by/with the Balkan people who migrated to their area, and thus giving rise what we now know as proto-IE.

I do realize some here will think I change my mind every other day - and I don't- , lol, but that is just because I don't get a clear picture of how these languages developed.

Genetics and linguistics are not compatiblle scientific disciplines, or so it seems.

Pushing forward the ideas of just one scientist won't help much.

I think we will have to await for genetic evidence gathered from bones dragged up from the North Sea to get a more clear picture of what happened.

That is MY idea...

Being skeptic is not easy: you will have to doubt the words of believers and non-believers, scientists and laymen, crackpots and sane people, and so on.

Everyone wants to have a say, and we will have to sift through all the 'garbage' we encounter.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 December 2010 - 07:05 PM.


#629    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 December 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

Everyone wants to have a say, and we will have to sift through all the 'garbage' we encounter.


.


And being drunk when you are at it doesn't help much too, lol.

But it sure helps when you want to vent some crazy idea, an idea that you would normally never allow to pass your tongue.



I am not advocatinng the use of liquor on this all-age site.


To the young ones I say: you can do a lot better than what I do.


And it took me about 45 minutes to post these few lines..

------------

Despite me whining again about my little problem, I still appreciate any contributions by creative minds.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 December 2010 - 10:40 PM.


#630    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:19 AM

Quote

Genetics and linguistics are not compatiblle scientific disciplines, or so it seems.

A person or persons can change the language they speak, obviously though they can't change their genes.

Quote

Pushing forward the ideas of just one scientist won't help much.

Promoting an artist who dabbles in language/linguistics in no way impeaches, nor supercedes, the credibility of a qualified expert in the field. 'Nuff said.

Quote

I think we will have to await for genetic evidence gathered from bones dragged up from the North Sea to get a more clear picture of what happened.

I'd like to see that too. It would likely answer, at least in part, the question of genetics. However, unless some form of recognizable writing is found as well, it can never answer the question of what language/language family was spoken.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users