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Doggerland


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#646    JohnD

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 02:41 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 July 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

By this qoute I will from now on always remember you: "by a process of pseudo-linguistic free association", LOL.

Well, you throw what you can at the wall and see what sticks, right? ;D

But some of the stuff you were saying upthread, and mentioned also in the "Stone Age Atl****s" documentary, about people continuing to make offerings in the form of precious goods (stone axes) when they passed over the sunken Doggerland in their boats. It reminded me a lot of this kind of thing (which you've probably already checked out):

http://traumwerk.sta...thurs_lady.html

Now, the timescales between Doggerland and Celtic sword offerings are pretty vast, I agree, but I think it's interesting, the idea that the "Otherworld" was underwater/underground and could be accessed via lakes, rivers, the sea etc. Okay, so a lake in Switzerland is not the North Sea, but if one was Robert Temple or somebody, one could postulate in the pages of one's mighty tome that the refugees from Doggerland and their descendants (and there seems to be a lot of evidence now that even if cultures and languages changed over time, it wasn't so much a case of mass colonisation as one of indigenous populations being "converted" by relatively small numbers of migrants) carried on the tradition long after more than the vaguest memories of what they were doing and why they were doing it had faded. All they had was the idea that the gods/afterlife existed underwater, somewhere, and maybe this vague idea continued right into Medieval/Christian times with things like the Hellweg processional routes that you mentioned earlier in the thread.

Plus you can bring the Arthurian stuff into it, which probably sells books! ;)

But yes, it's suggestive anyway. Suggestive of what exactly, well that's a good question. Plus there's the suggestion that Nuada/Nuadu/Nuadha, him of the Tuatha De Danann, was in some way associated with swords and watery offerings. Wikipedia, that fountain of reliable information (!) says that Nuada "is cognate with the Gaulish and British god Nodens. His Welsh equivalent is Nudd or Lludd Llaw Eraint."

Well, according to Wiki, Nodens "is a Celtic deity associated with healing, the sea, hunting and dogs." Dogs again, eh? Moreover, the main Romano-British cult centre for Nodens, at a place now called Lydney Park is situated so that "it offered a clear view of the massive Severn Bore, a tidal wave which, under certain conditions, rises near Gloucester and its position within an earlier Iron Age hill fort must also be relevant."

Okay, the wrong coast and a few thousand years too late, but we're free-associating here, right?

If you read some more of the Wiki articles, you'll also see claims that the name Nuada/Nodens/Nudd might be derived from a Proto-Indo-European root meaning, among other things, "go fishing". And it also points out the similarity between these names and the Norse sea good Njordr. Anyway; some tenuous stuff, probably, but I like this sort of dot-joining exercise...

http://en.wikipedia....uada_Airgetlám
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodens
http://en.wikipedia....udd_Llaw_Eraint


#647    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 05:26 PM

What I'm finding interesting, Abramelin, is that the area in and around Doggerland would suggest that it's likely that the peoples were already genetically diverse, even at that time. It would also tend to run contrary to any claim of genetic origins or a mother-culture based on same as presented in the OLB thread. Which I realize is not your claim here, but I find it interesting that no matter how one attempts to tackle the genetics question it never substantiates the claims made in the other thread. You gotta love science.  :lol:

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cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#648    Abramelin

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:59 PM

John, I will add my answer to you in bold/italic type between your quoted post:

View PostJohnD, on 06 July 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Well, you throw what you can at the wall and see what sticks, right? ;D

Did you read the summaries I posted in this thread? I threw a lot, heh.

But some of the stuff you were saying upthread, and mentioned also in the "Stone Age Atl****s" documentary, about people continuing to make offerings in the form of precious goods (stone axes) when they passed over the sunken Doggerland in their boats. It reminded me a lot of this kind of thing (which you've probably already checked out):

http://traumwerk.sta...thurs_lady.html

Yes, but maybe you know that some think those precious (and obviously unsued) stone axes were nothing but trade ware (? my english, sorry) that had fallen overboard to be found millennia later on the Brown Banks.

Didn't click the link yet, but I will later.


Now, the timescales between Doggerland and Celtic sword offerings are pretty vast, I agree, but I think it's interesting, the idea that the "Otherworld" was underwater/underground and could be accessed via lakes, rivers, the sea etc. Okay, so a lake in Switzerland is not the North Sea, but if one was Robert Temple or somebody, one could postulate in the pages of one's mighty tome that the refugees from Doggerland and their descendants (and there seems to be a lot of evidence now that even if cultures and languages changed over time, it wasn't so much a case of mass colonisation as one of indigenous populations being "converted" by relatively small numbers of migrants) carried on the tradition long after more than the vaguest memories of what they were doing and why they were doing it had faded. All they had was the idea that the gods/afterlife existed underwater, somewhere, and maybe this vague idea continued right into Medieval/Christian times with things like the Hellweg processional routes that you mentioned earlier in the thread.

Plus you can bring the Arthurian stuff into it, which probably sells books! ;)

Man, you actually did read the whole thread ! Well, than you know both the Tuatha De Danann and the Fomorians are said to have come from some mythical underwater land (according to some translations Fomorian means 'from under the water'), or Lochlann (the 'land of lakes/lochs').

I can imagine a catastrophical and traumatic event like the Storegga Slide(s), an event that continued for probably DAYS on end (compare that with what happened in the Indian Ocean and Japan, events that 'only' took hours...) would be ingrained in the memory of the survivors, and told about for many generations to come.

But the big question is: could the core of a myth created around that event last for millennia??


But yes, it's suggestive anyway. Suggestive of what exactly, well that's a good question. Plus there's the suggestion that Nuada/Nuadu/Nuadha, him of the Tuatha De Danann, was in some way associated with swords and watery offerings. Wikipedia, that fountain of reliable information (!) says that Nuada "is cognate with the Gaulish and British god Nodens. His Welsh equivalent is Nudd or Lludd Llaw Eraint."

Well, according to Wiki, Nodens "is a Celtic deity associated with healing, the sea, hunting and dogs." Dogs again, eh? Moreover, the main Romano-British cult centre for Nodens, at a place now called Lydney Park is situated so that "it offered a clear view of the massive Severn Bore, a tidal wave which, under certain conditions, rises near Gloucester and its position within an earlier Iron Age hill fort must also be relevant."

Okay, the wrong coast and a few thousand years too late, but we're free-associating here, right?

If you read some more of the Wiki articles, you'll also see claims that the name Nuada/Nodens/Nudd might be derived from a Proto-Indo-European root meaning, among other things, "go fishing". And it also points out the similarity between these names and the Norse sea good Njordr. Anyway; some tenuous stuff, probably, but I like this sort of dot-joining exercise...

OK, I will look into it more; never thought of that connection (despite the fact that I absolutely love Irish/Celtic legends).

http://en.wikipedia....uada_Airgetlám
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodens
http://en.wikipedia....udd_Llaw_Eraint



#649    Abramelin

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:12 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 July 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

What I'm finding interesting, Abramelin, is that the area in and around Doggerland would suggest that it's likely that the peoples were already genetically diverse, even at that time. It would also tend to run contrary to any claim of genetic origins or a mother-culture based on same as presented in the OLB thread. Which I realize is not your claim here, but I find it interesting that no matter how one attempts to tackle the genetics question it never substantiates the claims made in the other thread. You gotta love science.  :lol:

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cormac

Heh, Cormac, when you post stuff like this, I feel like a total moron; the last time I studied anything about genetics was in the 70's of the past century. Could you, please, spell it out for me??

Ah, damn, you mean in connection with the OLB thread, and what Alewyn had to say about it. I will read again what he writes about it in his book.

But... sigh.. you say people were 'already' diverse at the time.. and you show a chart that says people around Doggerland were somewhat apart/unique, genetically speaking, around the time the Doggerland submerged, from the peoples living around them. How much time does it take for that to happen?


#650    Abramelin

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:29 PM

And what about this:

"Caribbeans in Britain - A return to ancestral lands?"

http://www.bnvillage...tral-lands.html

Posted Image

Hahaha !!

Ahem.

The Fomorians were always described as being 'swarthy'.

Just kidding.

Lol, maybe they were those black people from the OLB "Lydia"??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 July 2011 - 08:52 PM.


#651    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 08:54 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 July 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Heh, Cormac, when you post stuff like this, I feel like a total moron; the last time I studied anything about genetics was in the 70's of the past century. Could you, please, spell it out for me??

Ah, damn, you mean in connection with the OLB thread, and what Alewyn had to say about it. I will read again what he writes about it in his book.

But... sigh.. you say people were 'already' diverse at the time.. and you show a chart that says people around Doggerland were somewhat apart/unique, genetically speaking, around the time the Doggerland submerged, from the peoples living around them. How much time does it take for that to happen?

Well, you're NOT a moron so don't let yourself think that.

What the above picture shows is that by the time of, and prior to, the disappearance of Doggerland that there were already diverse genetic groups in the area who likely would have had contact with each other to varying degrees. This is also true for the area discussed in the OLB thread, from much later. But there is nothing to show that any groups or sub-groups that could be attributed to a specific peoples existed during the time of Doggerland. By the earliest times of the OLB the Haplogroup I1 (originating in or around Denmark) would have been only one of many, MANY groups or subgroups in the area. By the end of Doggerland and geographically close to it you can see from the picture that there were peoples belonging to Y Chromosome haplogroups R1a1a7-M458, R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21 and I2b-M436, as well as mtDNA haplogroups U, U4 or U5. In none of these cases should peoples of these groups/subgroups be seen as limited to a particular geography, nor (even more importantly) to a specific ethnicity. From that I think you can see how the genetic claims made, particularly as regards the OLB, ultimately FAIL.

To answer your last question, changes in genetics happen over a period of several thousands to tens of thousands of years. Something that is not seen particularly between the end of Doggerland and, say, the earliest parts of the OLB story.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#652    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 09:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 July 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

And what about this:

"Caribbeans in Britain - A return to ancestral lands?"

http://www.bnvillage...tral-lands.html

Posted Image

Hahaha !!

Ahem.

The Fomorians were always described as being 'swarthy'.

Just kidding.

Lol, maybe they were those black people from the OLB "Lydia"??

.

From a genetic perspective, minus the "Caribbean" claim, the rest really presents no problem that I'm aware of.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#653    JohnD

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 09:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 July 2011 - 07:59 PM, said:

Yes, but maybe you know that some think those precious (and obviously unsued) stone axes were nothing but trade ware (? my english, sorry) that had fallen overboard to be found millennia later on the Brown Banks.

And they could well be right, of course. At the end of the day, a lot of this kind of stuff comes down to interpretation and best guesses. And, you know, usually the least complicated explanation is the true one. I think that you're right about the uncertainty of stories being able to survive over that period of time, but as you say an event as traumatic as the Storegga Slide tsunami likely made a big impression on those who witnessed it, so there almost certainly were stories, at some point. The only thing is, with the length of time involved all that would likely be left of those stories by the time the history of these peoples started to be written down would be the sort of vague allusions and associations that might just as easily be in the imagination of those "identifying" them, if you see what I mean. There is no way of ever pinning it down for sure and the only people who claim to know anything for certain about these things are people with publishing deals trying to sell us something...

Cormac - I don't pretend fully to understand the genetic data, but what you're saying is that any idea of a specific "Doggerlander" ethnic group who spread after the deluge is unsupported by the scientific evidence? That there were already various populations in and around the area both during and after the period when Doggerland was inhabited? Makes sense - I'm not sure if I really buy any of the alternative genetic and/or linguistic theories on the various sites linked to (not that I really know enough about that aspect to come to firm conclusions either way). Certainly, Oera Linda seems like a big load of bull (need to catch up on that thread too). :D

But I guess if we're talking about stories about the flood spreading and leaving some sort of vague, hard-to-interpret mark on the mythologies and cultures of the various peoples around the North Sea, then it would only take a relatively small number of refugees who wouldn't necessarily leave any genetic footprint on the tribes or societies they fetched up among?

EDIT: And indeed, regarding "swarthy" Formorians or people with "African" physical characteristics in Britain, that seems perfectly plausible to me given that Europe's modern human population had presumably come out of Africa originally and that Northern Europe had probably been repopulated by people from further south after the ice retreated.

Edited by JohnD, 06 July 2011 - 09:49 PM.


#654    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 10:16 PM

Quote

Cormac - I don't pretend fully to understand the genetic data, but what you're saying is that any idea of a specific "Doggerlander" ethnic group who spread after the deluge is unsupported by the scientific evidence? That there were already various populations in and around the area both during and after the period when Doggerland was inhabited? Makes sense - I'm not sure if I really buy any of the alternative genetic and/or linguistic theories on the various sites linked to (not that I really know enough about that aspect to come to firm conclusions either way). Certainly, Oera Linda seems like a big load of bull (need to catch up on that thread too).

Hello JohnD,

Yes, you would be right in that. And as I mentioned to Abramelin, it extends past the timeframe for Doggerland and stands just as true for the Netherlands and the story in the OLB. Any genetic claims relating to the OLB are unsubstantiated and therefore meaningless.

Quote

But I guess if we're talking about stories about the flood spreading and leaving some sort of vague, hard-to-interpret mark on the mythologies and cultures of the various peoples around the North Sea, then it would only take a relatively small number of refugees who wouldn't necessarily leave any genetic footprint on the tribes or societies they fetched up among?

I think it really depends on what one is using as a reference, when talking about "The Flood". Is it the one concerning the end of Lake Agassiz-Ojibway c.6470 BC or the one related to the submergence of Doggerland c.6200 BC or the one related to the Black Sea c.7400 BC or the one related to the Mesopotamian and Hebrew stories c.3rd millenium BC? And how does one determine with any degree of accuracy which stories were passed down and which weren't? By whom? To whom? Gets rather complicated quickly, doesn't it?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#655    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 July 2011 - 08:54 PM, said:

Well, you're NOT a moron so don't let yourself think that.

What the above picture shows is that by the time of, and prior to, the disappearance of Doggerland that there were already diverse genetic groups in the area who likely would have had contact with each other to varying degrees. This is also true for the area discussed in the OLB thread, from much later. But there is nothing to show that any groups or sub-groups that could be attributed to a specific peoples existed during the time of Doggerland. By the earliest times of the OLB the Haplogroup I1 (originating in or around Denmark) would have been only one of many, MANY groups or subgroups in the area. By the end of Doggerland and geographically close to it you can see from the picture that there were peoples belonging to Y Chromosome haplogroups R1a1a7-M458, R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21 and I2b-M436, as well as mtDNA haplogroups U, U4 or U5. In none of these cases should peoples of these groups/subgroups be seen as limited to a particular geography, nor (even more importantly) to a specific ethnicity. From that I think you can see how the genetic claims made, particularly as regards the OLB, ultimately FAIL.

To answer your last question, changes in genetics happen over a period of several thousands to tens of thousands of years. Something that is not seen particularly between the end of Doggerland and, say, the earliest parts of the OLB story.

cormac

OK, thanks for explaining, Cormac.

I think it's a tricky thing to prove some history on genetics alone (not saying that that is what Alewyn did, btw).


#656    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:37 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 July 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:


(...)

I think it really depends on what one is using as a reference, when talking about "The Flood". Is it the one concerning the end of Lake Agassiz-Ojibway c.6470 BC or the one related to the submergence of Doggerland c.6200 BC or the one related to the Black Sea c.7400 BC or the one related to the Mesopotamian and Hebrew stories c.3rd millenium BC? And how does one determine with any degree of accuracy which stories were passed down and which weren't? By whom? To whom? Gets rather complicated quickly, doesn't it?

cormac

The emptying of Lake Agassiz, and a few centuries later the Storegga Slides will sure have had a dramatic impact on the psyche of the survivors of those floods/tsunamis that submerged Doggerland.

As you know I have been trying in this thread to grab at anything that might be some sort of remnant of a myth or myths about these events, and the only thing I could come up with are those stories about Avalon, Niflheim, Hell, Lyonesse, Ys, and of course, Lochlann.

But they were recorded so far later in time it's hard to imagine they have any connection with what must have happened many, many thousands of years before.

On the other hand, I read in another thread some North American tribes still knew of or had stories/myths about huge beasts ( = mammoths/mastodons) that roamed North America many thousands of years before Europeans set foot on American soil.

Maybe the fact that they lived in relative isolation helped them preserve these stories for a far longer time than people in Europe did?


#657    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 July 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:

From a genetic perspective, minus the "Caribbean" claim, the rest really presents no problem that I'm aware of.

cormac

This may be only the most recent claim of there being African-like people living in the UK and/or Ireland, thousands of years ago.

I remember having read some 30 years ago in some book that skeletons of very ancient African people were found in caves near the coast of Ireland. Of course I have tried to find those stories/reports, but failed.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 July 2011 - 10:43 AM.


#658    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 12:24 PM

Posted Image


#659    JohnD

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:14 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 July 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

I think it really depends on what one is using as a reference, when talking about "The Flood". Is it the one concerning the end of Lake Agassiz-Ojibway c.6470 BC or the one related to the submergence of Doggerland c.6200 BC or the one related to the Black Sea c.7400 BC or the one related to the Mesopotamian and Hebrew stories c.3rd millenium BC? And how does one determine with any degree of accuracy which stories were passed down and which weren't? By whom? To whom? Gets rather complicated quickly, doesn't it?

It certainly does...! And then there's the share length of time between the submergence of Doggerland and the later myths and cultures - I tend to share Abramelin's misgivings about the idea of things carrying over that length of time with so much change going on in the meantime.

Abramelin, relating to the diagram you've posted there, I found this while trying to make sense of it:

http://www.eupedia.c...ration-of-I2a2b

Can't remember whether or not you referenced it upthread anywhere - it is a very big thread after all... I need to read through all of it and digest it. And this:

http://www.familytre...px?section=news

The name that keeps getting mentioned is someone called Ken Nordtvedt - his research I assume. A couple of bits that jumped out at me (seems to be a fair bit of conjecture involved):

"As Doggerland submerged and the land divided, the I2a2b were split - a few
on the west side and a very few, perhaps as few as a single individual, on the east but the majority were trapped and slowly dying out on shrinking Doggerland islands where they were running out of firewood (as happened at Easter Island). They had neither the marine technology to escape the slowly rising water nor the wood to make boats. This was happening during the Younger Dryas glacial period so the population would have had a hard time maintaining themselves during this long time of land subsidence and bitter cold. A population collapse would seem very likely as a result.
-
Then, after the end of the Younger Dryas, there were four catastrophic events over the span of less than a couple hundred years. Lake Agassiz drained, raising the sea level 1 to 3 meters in a matter of only a few days time and causing the "8.2 kiloyear event", a cold period, perhaps 5˚ below normal, lasting about 3 centuries. This would have caused major habitat and resource destruction in the low flat islands and shorelines of Doggerland and severe disruption of the food supply resulting great loss of life.
-
Then the remnants of Doggerland were destroyed and the remaining I2a2b were nearly exterminated by the three devastating Storegga Tsunamis about 6,200 BC creating a major genetic "bottleneck" (e.g. N*=small). This "bottleneck" might go a long ways toward explaining the very long time between the founding of I2a2b about 13,000 ya and and the TMRCA only about 5,000 ya. It might also explain the relatively low numbers of I2a2b overall.
-
It is thought that the sea rise from Lake Agassiz and the Storegga tsunamis resulted in the opening of the English Channel, isolating those peoples who were on Britain. At first the channel opening may have been narrow enough and shallow enough to walk across at low tide, but the sea level continued rising at the rate of a meter a century, so the walking period did not last very long.
"


Makes post-glacial Doggerland sound like a fairly miserable place to live, which doesn't seem to agree with some of the evidence further up this thread. And the stuff about lack of wood/boats doesn't seem to tally either, considering how richly forested Doggerland seems to have been and that iirc there's evidence of boat-building from the Star Carr site, which predates the Storegga Slide by quite a long while...

"Over on the west bank - in a large area now under water off East Anglia - Isles C was founded and thrived. The continued rise of sea level drove them to the west where they dispersed throughout Britain.
Isles A split off from a remnant of Isles B about 3000 BC. Then Isles C2 and D
split off from C about 2000 BC in Ireland.
-
Some 6,000 years after the tsunamis, and 2,500 years after the split of C and D, the Anglo-Saxon and other "late" invasions started conceivably containing some B from those very few folks left on the continent 6,000 years before. Isles is a minuscule part of the continental gene pool and therefore any contribution to the gene pool of Isles B in Britain and Ireland would be minuscule and add none at all to groups A, C, and D.
"


"Is this up to date? (Ken's) conjecture that Clade C originated in the British Isles ...who may have been in the oldest Clade B...for what it is worth, Isles B folk entering the British Isles via Doggerland from what is now the German plain, going first to Scotland and then on to Ireland 'giving birth' to Isles Clades A,C and D.""

Anyway, I don't mean to spam your thread with copy-and-paste stuff, but I found it interesting and it appears to agree with the stuff in the diagram.


#660    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:27 PM

No problem John, it's interesting stuff.

But you said: "Makes post-glacial Doggerland sound like a fairly miserable place to live, which doesn't seem to agree with some of the evidence further up this thread"

Right after the end of the last ice age, Doggerland would have been nothing but a frozen, barren tundra.

But from many finds (fi. bones, pollen) they concluded that all soon (- within 2000 years) changed for a lot better.

Maybe you have read in this thread that the avarage temperature in Doggerland at a later age was about 1-2 degrees Celsius higher than the avarage temperature in Brittain now.





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