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Doggerland


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#661    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:32 PM

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This may be only the most recent claim of there being African-like people living in the UK and/or Ireland, thousands of years ago.

Keep in mind Abramelin that the genetic evidence suggests that pale skin only developed in the area of the Caucasus c.4000 - 10000 BC. So anyone living before that time would of course been dark skinned.

European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests

Also that while subgroups of I2a and I2b would have existed in Europe at the time, I2a2b/L-161 appears to only date to c.5370 BP (3370 BC), which is well after the disappearance of Doggerland. As well as mentioning that, contrary to your picture, it's known that the end of Lake Agassiz-Ojibway and Doggerland did NOT happen at the same time but were in fact separate events.

Estimated TMRCAs for Y Haplogroup I Clades

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 07 July 2011 - 03:34 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#662    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:57 PM

"Keep in mind Abramelin that the genetic evidence suggests that pale skin only developed in the area of the Caucasus c.4000 - 10000 BC. So anyone living before that time would of course been dark skinned."



This I got from your first link:

Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago.

(...)

The data suggest that the selective sweep occurred 5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision of method, the real date could be as far back as 12,000 years ago, Norton said. She added that other, unknown, genes probably also cause paling in Europeans.



So that means there could already have been white people living in Doggerland around 6200 BC.


#663    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 July 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

"Keep in mind Abramelin that the genetic evidence suggests that pale skin only developed in the area of the Caucasus c.4000 - 10000 BC. So anyone living before that time would of course been dark skinned."



This I got from your first link:

Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago.

(...)

The data suggest that the selective sweep occurred 5300 to 6000 years ago, but given the imprecision of method, the real date could be as far back as 12,000 years ago, Norton said. She added that other, unknown, genes probably also cause paling in Europeans.



So that means there could already have been white people living in Doggerland around 6200 BC.

Abe, 12,000 years ago IS 10,000 BC.  :lol:

Yes there could have been, but how many/what percentage would be anybody's guess.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#664    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:06 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 07 July 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

Abe, 12,000 years ago IS 10,000 BC.  :lol:

Yes there could have been, but how many/what percentage would be anybody's guess.

cormac

Hello, I know that...

Just saying that the date could have been 12,000 yrs bp. or like 4000 years to settle in Doggerland.


#665    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:10 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 July 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

Hello, I know that...

Just saying that the date could have been 12,000 yrs bp. or like 4000 years to settle in Doggerland.

That didn't come across in the way you wrote it, but okay. Yes it's possible. I'd say you're on much firmer ground concerning Doggerland than anyone in the other thread, concerning the OLB and ancient history.  :tu:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#666    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:11 PM

Btw, according to this pic you posted earlier, http://i325.photobuc...dDoggerland.jpg , white as in blond-haired could have been present in Doggerland.

++

"That didn't come across in the way you wrote it, but okay. Yes it's possible. I'd say you're on much firmer ground concerning Doggerland than anyone in the other thread, concerning the OLB and ancient history"

Heh, ok. I just wanted to show that I actually read the pdf you linked to.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 July 2011 - 04:13 PM.


#667    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:18 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 July 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

Btw, according to this pic you posted earlier, http://i325.photobuc...dDoggerland.jpg , white as in blond-haired could have been present in Doggerland.

++

"That didn't come across in the way you wrote it, but okay. Yes it's possible. I'd say you're on much firmer ground concerning Doggerland than anyone in the other thread, concerning the OLB and ancient history"

Heh, ok. I just wanted to show that I actually read the pdf you linked to.

.

Yes it could. Which tends to suggest, IMO, that Doggerland may have been a "melting-pot" of sorts of various peoples/ethnic groups/genetic lines. Although, for the time, it's likely that no one group was ever very large.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#668    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 04:57 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 07 July 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yes it could. Which tends to suggest, IMO, that Doggerland may have been a "melting-pot" of sorts of various peoples/ethnic groups/genetic lines. Although, for the time, it's likely that no one group was ever very large.

cormac

Population density back then may not have been anything near what we have now, but if I have to believe what some scientists suggested, Doggerland may have been the most popular place to be of all the places in Northern Europe/Asia, a few thousand years after the end of the last ice age.

Wouldn't it be damn interesting if they could find out, using DNA from skeletons dragged up from the bottom of the North Sea, who these people were?

That would be something: Africans and Nordics happily sharing some sort of paradise for thousands of years...

OK, ok, then they split up (Fomorians and Tuatha De Danann), and left their drowning world, but that was after they had started fighting eachother over their continuously shrinking homeland...  :P


#669    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:03 PM

Btw, I want to add that Cormac already showed me that the Tuatha De Danann in arrived in Ireland thousands of years after the submergence of Doggerland.

That's according to his (Irish) source, "The Annals of the Four Masters".

But the thing is this: it could be a myth created around a real ancient event.

And again... could that myth, in any form, have survived up to the day these 'masters' put it on paper?? Or just the core of it?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 July 2011 - 06:04 PM.


#670    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:04 PM

Yes it would be interesting, although the use of the term "Africans" would be mis-applied in this case as none of the genetic groups/subgroups living in the area of Doggerland at that time would have originated in Africa.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#671    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:08 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 07 July 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

Yes it would be interesting, although the use of the term "Africans" would be mis-applied in this case as none of the genetic groups/subgroups living in the area of Doggerland at that time would have originated in Africa.

cormac

You base that on the DNA analysis of the skeletons found around the North Sea area.

What about those still on the bottom of the North Sea?

Maybe these 'Africans' doggedly stuck to Doggerland (that place was warmer than the UK is now - the surrounding countries were still cold enough to freeze one's balls off - , and these 'Africans may just have loved that land because of that), and when it got flooded fled to Ireland, and got whiped out before their genes got a chance to spread any further.

Ok, ok, just fantasizing now, lol. But you knew that already.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 July 2011 - 06:26 PM.


#672    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:33 PM

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You base that on the DNA analysis of the skeletons found around the North Sea area.

No, I base this on the lack of evidence showing specific African haplogroups/subgroups anywhere in Northern or Western Europe at the time of Doggerlands existance. And this from both Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial (mtDNA) studies.

Quote

What about those still on the bottom of the North Sea?

One can't base what we know on genetic evidence of remains that haven't been found. What we do have is fairly broad in scope already and none of it shows a specifically African origin.

Quote

Maybe these 'Africans' doggedly stuck to Doggerland, and when it got flooded fled to Ireland, and got whiped out before their genes got a chance to spread any further.

It's possible, but then again if it were true we'd never know about it, so there's nothing really to base any speculation on.

Edit to clarify first sentence by including the words "Northern or Western".

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 07 July 2011 - 06:45 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#673    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:53 PM

You ignored the final sentence in my former post.

And that is all there is to it: FANTASY.

I admit: I love to fantasize about what could have been going on 8000 years ago.

But I am not an idiot, and some (no, many) of my fantasies are way off.

But some others could just be true, right?


#674    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 07:09 PM

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You ignored the final sentence in my former post.

Nope, but then I wasn't posting solely for your benefit, Abramelin, as we both know that there are others who like to fantasize as well. Only, as opposed to you, they believe their fantasies are reality.  :yes:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#675    Abramelin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 07:25 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 07 July 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

Nope, but then I wasn't posting solely for your benefit, Abramelin, as we both know that there are others who like to fantasize as well. Only, as opposed to you, they believe their fantasies are reality.  :yes:

cormac

The reason I post what I post is because I was where these (other) morons are now, decades ago.

I was young, once (sigh), and I absolutely believed a Von Däniken, a Charroux, a Cayce, a Blavatsky, a Sitchin, a... whatever idiot lies through his/her teeth to get 15 or more 'minutes' of fame.

But then I woke up, I questioned things, I found out I had been lied to, I found out that all I wanted is to believe a fantasy history.

Why?

Coz I was bored with what scientists had to offer me.

They didn't tickle my imagination.

+++++

EDIT:

I know I have wasted a large part of my life believing in all that crap.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 July 2011 - 07:33 PM.





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