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Doggerland


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#826    whitegandalf

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

"This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc"


This was my original statement, i never claimed permanent settlements, only permanent houses..

Edited by whitegandalf, 01 November 2012 - 06:15 PM.


#827    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:44 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 01 November 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

"This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc"


This was my original statement, i never claimed permanent settlements, only permanent houses..

You did attribute them to Doggerland, having said:

Quote

Doggerland had permanent settlements in norway many thousands of years before it sank in the sea.

You've neither shown that these sites, such as Asgarden or Middagskarheia had any connection with the peoples of Doggerland nor that the peoples of both places were one and the same. Which makes your claim misleading, in the least.

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#828    whitegandalf

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

The history of human settlement in what is present day Norway goes back at least 11,000 years, to the late Paleolithic. Archaeological finds in the county of Møre og Romsdal have been dated to 9,200 BC and are probably the remains of settlers from Doggerland, an area now submerged in the North Sea

http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Norway


#829    whitegandalf

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

Ahrensburgian finds were made in southern and western Scandinavia,

http://en.wikipedia....ensburg_culture


#830    whitegandalf

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

Norways first settlers came from the doggerland culture. Some travelled there part of the year. Other lived in norway all year, although different places in during the year.


#831    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

Repeating Wikipedia doesn't make it true. How about a citation from a professional paper/article/journal etc.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#832    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. Haplogroup I-M253 has been estimated to be some 15,000 years old. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia....roup_I1_(Y-DNA)

Posted Image

http://en.wikipedia....group_I_(Y-DNA)

Denmark? It could have been all over Doggerland at that time.


#833    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

And compare that map with the map of the course of the Danube river:

Posted Image

I once said the people living in Doggerland could have easily traveled along the Rhine (and Elbe) and then to the Danube.

Posted Image

They could have ended up in ex-Yugoslavia and Romania and the Black Sea area..

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 December 2012 - 04:55 PM.


#834    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

"Posted image". yeah...

Here is that image again:

Posted Image


#835    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

From the National Geographic Magazine:


Searching for Doggerland
For decades North Sea boatmen have been dragging up traces of a vanished world in their nets. Now archaeologists are asking a timely question: What happens to people as their homeland disappears beneath a rising tide?


By Laura Spinney
Art by Alexander Maleev
Published: December 2012



When signs of a lost world at the bottom of the North Sea first began to appear, no one wanted to believe them. The evidence started to surface a century and a half ago, when fishermen along the Dutch coast widely adopted a technique called beam trawling. They dragged weighted nets across the seafloor and hoisted them up full of sole, plaice, and other bottom fish. But sometimes an enormous tusk would spill out and clatter onto the deck, or the remains of an aurochs, woolly rhino, or other extinct beast. The fishermen were disturbed by these hints that things were not always as they are. What they could not explain, they threw back into the sea.

Generations later a resourceful amateur paleontologist named Dick Mol persuaded the fishermen to bring him the bones and note the coordinates of where they had found them. In 1985 one captain brought Mol a beautifully preserved human jawbone, complete with worn molars. With his friend, fellow amateur Jan Glimmerveen, Mol had the bone radiocarbon-dated. It turned out to be 9,500 years old, meaning the individual lived during the Mesolithic period, which in northern Europe began at the end of the last ice age some 12,000 years ago and lasted until the advent of farming 6,000 years later. “We think it comes from a burial,” says Glimmerveen. “One that has lain undisturbed since that world vanished beneath the waves, about 8,000 years ago.”

The story of that vanished land begins with the waning of the ice. Eighteen thousand years ago, the seas around northern Europe were some 400 feet lower than today. Britain was not an island but the uninhabited northwest corner of Europe, and between it and the rest of the continent stretched frozen tundra. As the world warmed and the ice receded, deer, aurochs, and wild boar headed northward and westward. The hunters followed. Coming off the uplands of what is now continental Europe, they found themselves in a vast, low-lying plain.



Read the rest of the article here:

http://ngm.nationalg...nd/spinney-text

Some photos:

http://ngm.nationalg...gerland-670.jpg


#836    Proclus

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Posted Image

Sicily is not coloured, here.
Does this mean 0%? Since Sicily is a melting-pot I cannot believe this.

By the way: Sicily is an island with many immigrants over history, could prove interesting to look for genetics.
Do you have any good information on that? Would be nice. Thank you!

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#837    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostProclus, on 06 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Sicily is not coloured, here.
Does this mean 0%? Since Sicily is a melting-pot I cannot believe this.

By the way: Sicily is an island with many immigrants over history, could prove interesting to look for genetics.
Do you have any good information on that? Would be nice. Thank you!

_

It means less than 5% for that haplogroup.

Maybe Cormac could give you more recent info: genetics his thing.



.


#838    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 July 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

The Dover Strait is still widening by about one foot a year.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html


But the narrower a strait, the faster the curent running through it, and the faster the erosion caused by that same current will take place.

So when the North Sea came (again) in contact with the Channel, erosion may have occurred in many meters per year.



The Strait of Dover must have been the famous 'Pillars of Hercules' (Iman Wilkins)

http://www.historykb...ding-to-Wilkens


My impression of that strait at around 6000 BC :

Posted Image

Now add some dark, clouded, threatening, or foggy skies, and you will get what I am on about.

Imagine: you pass two large cliffs/'pillars' on either side of a narrow strait with your ship, and you see shoals, islands, thick fog, ruins (?), drowned forrests or stumps of trees, a foul smell like you are in hell, and all that preferrably during sunset or dusk.

Is there anyone reading all this who knows how to use Photoshop?

I don't have Photoshop, but I sure do know what kind of image I would like to create.

And an older post about the Strait of Dover:
http://www.unexplain...90#entry3990138

I just found an image showing how the Strait of Dover might have looked 8500 BP. I don't know how accurate that representation is, but here it is anyway:

Posted Image
MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.theothers...channelform.htm

Must have been an impressive sight if there were already sailors present to admire the view.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 January 2013 - 02:57 PM.


#839    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

It means less than 5% for that haplogroup.

Maybe Cormac could give you more recent info: genetics his thing.



.



Abe, Sicily (in regards to Haplogroup I) would fall in the 5% - 10 % range.

Source:  Autosomal Microsatellite and mtDNA Genetic Analysis in Sicily (Italy); Annals of Human Genetics (2003) 67, 42-53

cormac

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#840    Abramelin

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Abe, Sicily (in regards to Haplogroup I) would fall in the 5% - 10 % range.

Source:  Autosomal Microsatellite and mtDNA Genetic Analysis in Sicily (Italy); Annals of Human Genetics (2003) 67, 42-53

cormac

I am not going to argue wuth you about genetics, Cormac, but the map I posted is based on research done in 2011:

http://en.wikipedia....-DNA)#Subgroups

Check reference [22] : ISOGG 2011.

Your reference is from 2003:
http://www.researchg..._Sicily_(Italy)

But it could be based on nothing more than a rounding error of the statistics: 4.8% would fall under the lowest limit in the map, 5.2 would fall in the 5-10% range.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 January 2013 - 04:58 PM.





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