847 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 06 January 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am not going to argue wuth you about genetics, Cormac, but the map I posted is based on research done in 2011:

http://en.wikipedia....-DNA)#Subgroups

Check reference [22] : ISOGG 2011

But it could be based on nothing more than a rounding error of the statistics: 4.8% would fall under the lowest limit in the map, 5.2 would fall in the 5-10% range.

Sorry Abe, but it's not as the map itself is based on an earlier work, to whit:

Adapted from S. Rootsi et al. (2004), Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe, American Journal of Human Genetics 75, 128–137

http://en.wikipedia....aplogroup_I.png

Which means that your map is based on a contemporary study to the source I gave. Not that it's a significant difference as most of the percentages given in my source were rounded up, which is not an uncommon occurance. The actual percentages for the three major areas in Sicily were as follows:

Piazza:  7.6%
Caccamo:  8.6%
Ragusa:  7.1%

cormac

[Abramelin]

OK, and as I said: I should not argue with you about genetics, lol.

Well Proclus, that didn't hurt at all.

Just ask.

And now let's get back to Doggerland (because I do know the two of you rub each other the wrong way, and I won't like it if this turns into another endless.... nevermind).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 January 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Abramelin]

Further Evidence of Ancient Boat People of Northern Europe

I find it quite amazing that just a stones throw away in geographic terms we find that 'boat people' have been found and are accepted as the oldest civilisations directly after the last ice age.  It is if British archaeologist are out of their 'comfort zone' to study these neighbours of ours to see if there are similarities we can see and incorporate into our own Mesolithic findings.

Here is extract from 'The Full Wiki ': http://www.thefullwiki.org/Nordland

'There is evidence of human settlement in Nordland as far back as 10,500 years ago, about as early as in southern Norway. These Stone age people lived near the coast, often on islands and typically along straits near the open sea, with a rich provision of marine resources. Such archeological evidence has been found on Vega, in Leirfjord and along Saltstraumen. There are at least 15 locations with prehistoric rock carvings in Nordland, from Helgeland in the south to Narvik in the north (see Fosna-Hensbacka culture).'

[IMAGE]
Mesolithic Boat Drawings found in caves

They lived on coasts and islands and travelled by boat - as you would do in a flooded watery environment.  Consequently, if I'm correct about Prehistoric Britain wouldn't we do the same?

So what areas of Scandinavia were occupied at the end of the Ice Age and is their a relationship to Britain?

[IMAGE]

The entire civilisation was water based and lived in rivers of on the coasts - yet our archaeologists insist that we lived as 'hunter/gathers on dry land!!  and remember between us and the Scandinavians was not the North Sea but 'Doggerland'

[IMAGE]

So trading and communication with this civilisation was by following the shallow coast routes to a place we know existed in 9000BC - Star Carr, were we have found a town on the edge of a lake with the first house and 'planks' of wood.

So, have we progressed by 9000BC from reed boats to wooden boats?

Even with all this evidence of boats in Mesolithic Period there will be some that would doubt that these boats could carry the stones that constructed Stonehenge - but look at this cave drawing:

[IMAGE]

Is the image in the top right a boat carrying a huge stone and is the two upright figures below standing stones??

I only wish that this drawing was from the Cheddar Gouge overlooking the route to Stonehenge - unfortunately for me its not its from Häljesta, Västmanland in Sweden.

But it clearly shows transporting stones on boats was common place in Northern Europe as it was in ancient Egypt in the Mesolithic Period.

[IMAGE]

Posted 17th May 2011 by Robert John Langdon

http://robertjohnlan...oat-people.html


++++

EDIT:

An image from one of my earlier posts:

Edited by Abramelin, 02 April 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Abramelin]

The next is a post from another board. It mentions/shows many names, terms and maps already described and discussed in this thread, but with a lot of new information.

Anyway, worth a read for those interested in Doggerland:

We can also see the impact of natural disasters in this time period - these natural disasters included major volcanic activity in the central part of Europe in what is now western Germany on the Eiffel plateau 13,000 to 11,000 years ago, when a large part of what is now Germany was covered with ash and rocks. The most powerful explosion was from the Laach volcano *** 13,000 years ago, which seriously damaged local plant cover and drove away game animals. Archaeologist Hans-Peter Schulz theorizes that people also fled the disaster area, and, based on archaeological finds, may have fled as far away as central Russia. It could be expected that during this flight people also fled northwards into the periglacial Baltic area. After a volcanic eruption, vegetation is restored relatively quickly. Because of this, we can assume that populations wandered back and forth between the area of the natural disaster and the neighbouring territories. This tendency served to mix together various human populations and allowed for the consolidation of human genetic types and numerous incidents of language contact throughout the heart of Europe.

http://forum.axishis...777181#p1777181


*** Should be: Laacher See volcano.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 06 January 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

And an older post about the Strait of Dover:
http://www.unexplain...90#entry3990138

I just found an image showing how the Strait of Dover might have looked 8500 BP. I don't know how accurate that representation is, but here it is anyway:


MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.theothers...channelform.htm

Must have been an impressive sight if there were already sailors present to admire the view.

.

Iman Wilkins had some very controversial ideas about where Troy was located and where the Iliad took place, but we seem to have similar ideas about the North Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, as I found out just now:

He identifies the Helle Sea with the sea separating England from the continent of Europe, including the Channel,
the North sea, and the Baltic, and points out the enormous number of place names reflecting this identification,
such as Helford, Helston, Helladon, Hull, Hougate, Hellegat, Heligoland, Hellevad, and so on. The word is of extremely ancient Indo-European origin, often referring to the Kingdom of the Dead. Then there is another location for the Pillars of Hercules, at the Straits of Dover, indicating yet another geographic feature which seems to have been picked up and relocated, when the Greeks settled in the south. This identification must have endured for some time after this, up north, because it was referred to by Tacitus.

http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html

I hope some will remember my posts in this thread about "Hell" as an ancient name for the North Sea.

The main difference between Wilkin's theory and mine is some 5000 years....

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

Is there anyone out there who can change the next 2D image of the Strait of Dover in 6500 BCE into a 3D image?

Edited by Abramelin, 16 April 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[whitegandalf]

nice job. wow the north sea gate must have been one of earth greatest wonders.
behind it lied a secret world full of other wonders like the great pyramid, the eye of the sun and two towers.

http://www.google.no...wIcTj4QTJk4GoBQ


http://www.google.no...fEB9ZJOreZbqGM:

the eye of the sun produses a 30m large concentrated sunbeam on the temple of gods every year at the date 21 jun, summer solstice

http://www.google.no...img.5-fVfr77-kE



interesting info on the genetics too

keep it coming

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Abramelin]

Solent

Remains of human habitation have been found from the prehistoric, Roman and Saxon eras, showing that humans retreated towards progressively higher ground over these periods. Offshore from Bouldnor, Isle of Wight, divers have found at 11 metres depth the submerged remains of a wooden building that was built there on land around 6000 BC when the sea level was lower and the land was higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent


UK: Solent's Stone Age village 'had modern high street links'
Feb 2012

Work on an 8,000-year-old Stone Age settlement under the surface of the Solent in Hampshire is throwing up evidence of clear parallels of the modern "high street", archaeologists say.

After 30 years of excavating the area around Bouldnor Cliff, a boatyard was uncovered last summer, which teams have been working on ever since.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Divers taking part in a routine survey spotted a lobster cleaning out its burrow on the seabed and to their surprise the animal was throwing out dozens of pieces of worked flint - which turned out to be the first sign of the village.

The discoveries, after analysing a mile-long stretch of seabed, are of "international importance" the trust says, because it sheds new light on how people lived in the Mesolithic period.

"One area they were doing boat building, nearby they were on riverbanks and sand bars collecting reeds or doing a bit of fishing or elsewhere they would be hunting game," said director Garry Momber.

"Effectively you have all these activities happening which have strong parallels with the modern high street, but they've all just been a bit consolidated."

"We have found a pit with burnt flints, and evidence they were working wood, using technology that was 2,000 years ahead of its time."

Work to get the seabed to give up its secrets though, has required the removal of sediment that has protected the settlement for thousands of years - and this removal has given the tides the opportunity to erode that evidence away.

'Painstakingly slow'

"It is the only site of its kind in the UK," said Mr Momber, pointing out that it is currently eroding by up to 20ins (50cm) a year.

The settlement would have been flooded around the time the English channel was created, as sea levels rose in about 6,500BC.

At that time, the area near Bouldnor would have been covered with woods and freshwater lakes and rivers.

"Sea levels came up and flooded the whole lot and it was abandoned," continued Mr Momber.

"It was covered by sediment and then by salt marsh and then by the sea."

So far, archaeologists have uncovered a part of a wooden boat, flints and remains of food eaten by the Stone Age people who were based there.

http://www.sott.net/...gh-street-links


Video about the finds here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...pshire-17046338



THE BIG DIG/COVER STORY: Bouldnor Cliff

Evaluation excavation at BC-V in 2007 revealed quantities of material within the old land surface, including twigs, intact hazelnuts, burnt organic material, charcoal and burnt flint. In the peat above were timbers with evidence of working, including a piece of tangentially split oak that suggests the hewing of a large structure or possibly a logboat.

Much more here:
http://www.archaeolo...121/feat3.shtml


Mesolithic Occupation at Bouldnor Cliff
and the Submerged Prehistoric Landscapes of the Solent

http://www.archaeolo...ooks/momber2011


The most significant finding that emerged from the analysis was the use of technologies on some of the worked wood that are 2,000 years ahead of anything else seen in the UK to date. The largest piece of timber recovered so far measured 0.94m long by 0.41m wide and provided a radiocarbon date of 6240-6000 cal BC (Beta 249735). It had been tangentially split from a large slow grown oak tree. This method employs wedges to cut a plank towards the edge of a tree so the grain runs almost parallel along its width. The technique can be used to create a flat plank. Once this is removed from a large oak bole, around three quarters of the tree's circumference would be available for further conversion or fashioning. Another indicative factor was the relative angles of the medullary rays, which were almost parallel. This suggested the timber had been converted from the edge of a large tree in the order of 1.5m to 2m wide. The length of such a plank may well have been over 10m long.

This presents the possibility of creating a large, deep log boat or dugout canoe with the rest of the tree. If not the remains of a log boat this tangentially split timber could have been part of a monumental building. Prehistoric timbers using these conversion techniques have been found elsewhere, although not until the Neolithic period over 2,000 years later. The timber is associated with many other pieces of trimmed and flattened wood. Some have been surveyed and recovered while others remain beneath the old land surface. The true function of this exceptional site can only be resolved by further investigation which must be done before it is lost completely.

http://www.hwtma.org...gations-in-2010