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Doggerland


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#91    Abramelin

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 05:19 PM

Haplogroup R1b1c9
Today R1b1c9 is found mostly on the fringes of the North Sea in England, Germany and the Netherlands, where it reaches levels of one-third. That distribution suggests that some of the first men to bear the haplogroup in their Y-chromosomes were residents of Doggerland, a real-life Atlantis that was swallowed up by rising seas in the millennia following the Ice Age.


Doggerland was a low-lying region of forests and wetlands that must have been rich in game; today, fishing trawlers in the North Sea occasionally dredge up the bones and tusks of the mastadons that roamed there. Doggerland had its heyday between about 12,000 years ago, when the Ice Age climate began to ameliorate, and 9,000 years ago, when the meltwaters of the gradually retreating glaciers caused sea levels to rise, drowning the hunter’s paradise. Doggerland’s inhabitants retreated to the higher ground that is now the North Sea coast.

http://lancewiggs.co...0/im-100-irish/

(I couldn't find the original site that published the article)


----


Abstract
Recent genetic studies have challenged the traditional view that the ancestors of British Celtic people spread from central Europe during the Iron Age and have suggested a much earlier origin for them as part of the human recolonization of Britain at the end of the last glaciation. Here we propose that small mammals provide an analogue to help resolve this controversy. Previous studies have shown that common shrews (Sorex araneus) with particular chromosomal characteristics and water voles (Arvicola terrestris) of a specific mitochondrial (mt) DNA lineage have peripheral western/northern distributions with striking similarities to that of Celtic people. We show that mtDNA lineages of three other small mammal species (bank vole Myodes glareolus, field vole Microtus agrestis and pygmy shrew Sorex minutus) also form a ‘Celtic fringe’. We argue that these small mammals most reasonably colonized Britain in a two-phase process following the last glacial maximum (LGM), with climatically driven partial replacement of the first colonists by the second colonists, leaving a peripheral geographical distribution for the first colonists. We suggest that these natural Celtic fringes provide insight into the same phenomenon in humans and support its origin in processes following the end of the LGM.


http://rspb.royalsoc...9.1422.abstract




#92    Abramelin

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 06:45 PM

Here's a pic from a pdf file I posted earlier, and it shows the area (in red) that slipped and caused one of the largest tsunamis in history, and flooded what was left of Doggerland:

Posted Image

http://www.soes.soto...aehistorica.pdf


So, the hight of the tsunami as it arrived on the northern sea edge of Doggerland is quite a bit less huge than I first posted (I said 20 meters, like 60 feet).


But there are a few thoughts I'd like to add.

First, the shape of Doggerland is based on bathymetric research. Meaning: the shape of Doggerland is based on depth soundings of the present North Sea floor (and similar data), but no one knows how much present and more ancient sea currents reshaped the North Sea floor after it got flooded. It is now assumed that Doggerland, around 6100 BC, was much larger than previously assumed (as in the pdf file).


Btw, it's really amazing that I am one of the very few posting in this thread.

If the believers in submerged continents and civilizations would be willing to break their brains on scientific data, they would know that this is the place to focus upon.

OK, this is real,  maybe that is the real problem for them, heh....


#93    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 07:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 October 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

Here's a pic from a pdf file I posted earlier, and it shows the area (in red) that slipped and caused one of the largest tsunamis in history, and flooded what was left of Doggerland:

Posted Image

http://www.soes.soto...aehistorica.pdf


So, the hight of the tsunami as it arrived on the northern sea edge of Doggerland is quite a bit less huge than I first posted (I said 20 meters, like 60 feet).


But there are a few thoughts I'd like to add.

First, the shape of Doggerland is based on bathymetric research. Meaning: the shape of Doggerland is based on depth soundings of the present North Sea floor (and similar data), but no one knows how much present and more ancient sea currents reshaped the North Sea floor after it got flooded. It is now assumed that Doggerland, around 6100 BC, was much larger than previously assumed (as in the pdf file).


Btw, it's really amazing that I am one of the very few posting in this thread.

If the believers in submerged continents and civilizations would be willing to break their brains on scientific data, they would know that this is the place to focus upon.

OK, this is real,  maybe that is the real problem for them, heh....

Personally I believe that the window for culture to develop in Doggerland would have been much smaller than the window that was available for other submerged lands. The area would have been under ice for much of the time, and when the ice subsided there would have been a brief window of opportunity for hunters to colonize the area before again it returned to the sea. Therefore I feel it would have been a small and "primitive" culture which took advantage of a great opportunity whilst it lasted. In Ireland the Ice retreated for a very brief period in the last Ice age, and I cannot see doggerland been more favoured considering its more Northern location and its more continental climate.
The difference with Sunaland and Tamil and the areas in the Indian ocean is that throughout the extended period of the Ice age they would have been free of ice, flat, fertile, with good stable coastal lands and a very very benign climate. It is not surprise that the Tamils have written records of this time, and it is talked of glowingly as the golden age. The Indus Valley Civilization and the emmerging Japanese cultures may well be relics of this period. There is widespread evidence that their culture had influence over a very wide area. It is the nearest thing to a "Mother culture" we are likely to encounter.

So my point is that though the Doggerland area is of interest for the fact that it existed, and influenced early European culture to some small degree, it has nothing to compare to the potential that the Asian sunken lands have. I think the potential for major sunken finds in South East Asia is so much greater that Doggerland would have to take a lower priority.

I would have to say that my analysis is based on a far bigger body of scientific research in multiple fields of endeavor, it seem that many experts are beginning to see this area as a key location in multiple ways.  I am genuinely interested, so if you feel my personal analysis is flawed then I would love to be corrected.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 October 2009 - 07:11 PM.

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Robert Anton Wilson

#94    Abramelin

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 07:59 PM

- The 'brief window of opportunity' would have been several thousands of years; that window of time was enough for Europeans to become a dominating culture;
- You seem to forget that Doggerland was a much more friendly place to live than previously thought;
- About your favorite topic, "Sundaland", only theories exist, and no solid proof of what was actually down there;
- You have no idea at all about the potential of Doggerland, nor have I;
- Btw, Oppenheimer also had his theories about Doggerland...


.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 October 2009 - 08:06 PM.


#95    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 08:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 October 2009 - 07:59 PM, said:

- The 'brief window of opportunity' would have been several thousands of years; that window of time was enough for Europeans to become a dominating culture.
- About your favorite topic, "Sundaland", only theories exist, and no solid proof of what was actually down there.
- You have no idea at all about the potential of Doggerland, nor have I.
- Btw, Oppenheimer also had his theories about Doggerland...

I think a few thousand years from a purely Metholithic culture is just not enough to make a big cultural contribution.
In the other sunken lands the period for development stretches into 10's of thousands of years - which offers plenty enough time for a culture to evolve. This is what I am basing my opinion on.
I have read quite a bit on  genetic and skeletal comparisons in the whole Oceania area, and there is a growing body of evidence to show that genetically it was one of the corner stones of mans development. There is also evidence for isolated individual South East Asians turning up in some very unlikely location around the globe.  
Truly I have no axe to grind on this one, and if I had the time to revisit my searches I would point you to the evidence I have come across (all scientific in origin). I just think the potential for doggerland is limited, and you are entitled to prove me wrong ^_^

Br Cornelius

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#96    Abramelin

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 08:33 PM

I have nothing to prove you wrong as long as they don't drag up some remnants of people, animals and plants from the bottom of the present Sunda Shelf.

I know the story about Sundaland - I have read Oppenheimer and that guy with the Spanish name I know forgot -  and it's very interesting.

NOW I'd like to see what Sundaland might have looked like when it was still above water.

And some proof that catastrophic floods and not a slow submergence by the rising sea level destroyed it (for Oppenheimer tried to prove that Sundaland was the origin of the Atlantis myth).


#97    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 08:56 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 October 2009 - 08:33 PM, said:

I have nothing to prove you wrong as long as they don't drag up some remnants of people, animals and plants from the bottom of the present Sunda Shelf.

I know the story about Sundaland - I have read Oppenheimer and that guy with the Spanish name I know forgot -  and it's very interesting.

NOW I'd like to see what Sundaland might have looked like when it was still above water.

And some proof that catastrophic floods and not a slow submergence by the rising sea level destroyed it (for Oppenheimer tried to prove that Sundaland was the origin of the Atlantis myth).
He made a brief reference to the possibility that it may have been Atlantis. As his title suggests though he was much more interested in it been the Garden of Eden, and he never speculated that it was anything other than Neolithic. What he was interested in was the cohesion it imposed on legendary history.

What I do find fascinating about doggeland is the light that it casts on the extreme spread of man in very ancient times, and how adaptable they were to local conditions. To me this points to early man as been  around to take advantage of almost all opportunities, and having the Sea faring ability to get to all these lost locations. For me it points to the fact that the ice age was a tremendous opportunity for man, which he seized, and only experienced a relatively minor setback at the end of the iceage when everything changed so dramatically.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#98    Abramelin

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:39 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 October 2009 - 08:56 PM, said:

He made a brief reference to the possibility that it may have been Atlantis. As his title suggests though he was much more interested in it been the Garden of Eden, and he never speculated that it was anything other than Neolithic. What he was interested in was the cohesion it imposed on legendary history.

What I do find fascinating about doggeland is the light that it casts on the extreme spread of man in very ancient times, and how adaptable they were to local conditions. To me this points to early man as been  around to take advantage of almost all opportunities, and having the Sea faring ability to get to all these lost locations. For me it points to the fact that the ice age was a tremendous opportunity for man, which he seized, and only experienced a relatively minor setback at the end of the iceage when everything changed so dramatically.

Br Cornelius

Yes, you are right about Oppenheimer; I think I confused him with that other guy, an Alfonso Sanchez something who tried to prove Sundaland was Atlantis.

What fascinates me about Doggerland is that it was maybe a place of origin for many people living in the countries surrounding what is now the North Sea, and that we hardly knew anything about it untill very recently.

I don't expect scientists to find megalithic structures there or anything grand and awesome, but it must have been a rather important country, and very probably the base of a seafaring peope. I would already be glad if they find (the remnants of) a nice big wooden ship there, dating from 8000 BP.

Well, Cornelius, why don't you post about Sundaland here, or in a separate thread? I think you are able to fill it with posts all of your own.


EDIT:

I found the name of that other writer: Arysio Nunes dos Santos, http://www.atlan.org/

And here is rather funny interview with this... professor:





.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2009 - 12:13 AM.


#99    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 03:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 October 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

So, the hight of the tsunami as it arrived on the northern sea edge of Doggerland is quite a bit less huge than I first posted (I said 20 meters, like 60 feet).


But there are a few thoughts I'd like to add.

First, the shape of Doggerland is based on bathymetric research. Meaning: the shape of Doggerland is based on depth soundings of the present North Sea floor (and similar data), but no one knows how much present and more ancient sea currents reshaped the North Sea floor after it got flooded. It is now assumed that Doggerland, around 6100 BC, was much larger than previously assumed (as in the pdf file).


I created a mix of 2 maps, the one with the Storegga Slide (in red), and one with a more accurate depiction of the North Sea floor:

Posted Image


In the pdf I posted earlier it is said that the tsunami hit the southern North Sea with an approximate height of 3 meters.

But as you can see on the image I created, the tsunami - with an original height 0f 20 meters - hit the coast of Doggerland following a deeper area and subsequent channel.


Now:

"As a tsunami leaves the deep water of the open sea and propagates into the more shallow waters near the coast, it undergoes a transformation. Since the speed of the tsunami is related to the water depth, as the depth of the water decreases, the speed of the tsunami diminishes. The change of total energy of the tsunami remains constant. Therefore, the speed of the tsunami decreases as it enters shallower water, and the height of the wave grows. Because of this "shoaling" effect, a tsunami that was imperceptible in deep water may grow to be several feet or more in height."

http://wcatwc.arh.noaa.gov/physics.htm


"As a tsunami wave approaches the coast (where the sea becomes shallow), the trough (bottom) of a wave hits the beach floor, causing the wave to slow down, to increase in height (the amplitude is magnified many times) and to decrease in wavelength (the distance from crest to crest).
At landfall, a tsunami wave can be hundreds of meters tall. Steeper shorelines produce higher tsunami waves."


http://www.enchanted...bjects/tsunami/


So, from the image I posted here one might conclude that the tsunami, right before it hit the north coast of Doggerland still retained a lot of it's original speed and devastating power, and the wave that actually flooded Doggerland (or the northern part of it) must have been quite a bit higher than 3 meters, and maybe even still 15 meters high. ("Steeper shorelines produce higher tsunami waves")



.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2009 - 04:09 PM.


#100    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 05:25 PM

And was this 'just' one short event... very probably no:

http://www.ngi.no/en...e-and-Storegga/

"When the Storegga landslide took place, it also resulted in the mass movement of moraine material that was deposited during several different ice ages in history. Six or seven different slide surfaces with low friction have been identified. The lowest sliding surface lies close to the bottom of the landslide area, which means that the landslide propagated backwards as it continuously jumped to the next sliding area. The landslide is about 700 m deep. Which means that huge quantities of soil mass was in motion. It is very likely that this landslide process took place during some hours, or maximum during a couple of days."


Posted Image



That scientist who said that, although the submergence of Doggerland went fast, the people 'didn't have to run for the hills' was very right: they didn't have to run, they were swept over the hills, and maybe the same hills came right after them....


According to this Dutch site they found deposits caused by the Storegga Slide in Rotterdam:

In Nederland kwamen sporen van deze tsunami aan het licht bij bodemonderzoek tijdens het aanleggen van de snelle treinverbinding naar Parijs, de HSL en bij Rotterdam Centraal Station. Onderzoek wees uit dat een onderzeese afglijding van de oceaanbodem ter hoogte van Noorwegen de zogenaamde Storegga Tsunami veroorzaakt had, die bij de Shetland eilanden een golfhoogte van 25 meter bereikt zal hebben.
http://www.ecomare.n...dex.php?id=6697


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2009 - 06:09 PM.


#101    Abramelin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 01:16 PM

I have searched through many old Norse and Celtic (here:Welsh) legends looking for something about floods, and only the Welsh legends mention floods, but it's almost certain that those floods happened somewhere off the coast of Wales and Cornwall ( "Cantre'r Gwaelod" and much more recently
http://news.bbc.co.u...id_/5016240.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales

The only other Celtic legend that is more clear and possibly about the deluge that flooded Doggerland is in the Irish Book of Invasions/Conquests (see earlier post in this thread).

In old Norse legends absulutely nothing can be found that points to some kind of real flood (only something in a creation myth and lots of blood from a giant):
http://www.native-sc...y_Cosmology.htm




In THIS POST  I talked about "Nehalennia", an ancient sea/fertility godess venerated at the southern coasts of the North Sea (and also in some places up the Rhine). The origins of this seagodess are very uncertain, and the godess may not even Germanic or Celtic in origin.

But looking for something more about this seagodess I found a Dutch site with something of an explanation of the name "Nehalennia":

Where did the name Neeltje Jans come from?
Neeltje Jans was the name given to Nehalennia by the local population. Nehalennia, Nehalenia, Nehalaenniae, Nehalaenia; all of these are different spellings meaning “Lady of the North Sea”. No one is absolutely certain of the meaning of the name.


Apparently in the 18th century a ship named Neeltje Jans sank on a sandbank in the Eastern Scheldt and the sandbank was then given the name of the ship. However, no proof of this claim has ever been found.
Some people think that the name Nehalennia is derived from the Hebrew words ‘nahal’, meaning to guide and ‘aniah’ meaning ship. This would indicate the meaning to be ‘guide the ship’, i.e. he who guides the ship(s).


Another possible explanation could be as follows:
Neeltje Jans: Ne/Helle/Jaan/s
Nehellenia: Ne/helle/ia


Ne = near
Haale = ancient name of the North Sea, as the region used to be called where now the Flemish and the Zeelanders live (sometimes pronounced as Hale (n). This could also explain the various spellings found on altar stones, e.g. Nehalennia).
Jaan = jeanne = jane = lady
s= feminine gender.
Neeltje Jans = Ne+halen+ia could therefore be roughly translated as meaning Lady or Goddess of the Sea. Our logo, the mermaid Neeltje Jans, reflects this version


The exhibition room at Deltapark Neeltje Jans houses a cast of a temple stone from a temple dedicated to the Roman goddess Nehalennia. Similar stones have been brought up out of the water by fishermen near Colijnsplaat and Domburg.
Not far from Neeltje Jans, there is another sandbank and this is called Vuilbaard. Deltapark Neeltje Jans has taken inspiration from this sandbank to develop a new character, which we have named Zoutbaard. The word baard is thought to derive from bard or singer (minstrel).
Zoutbaard is the minstrel who serenades the mermaid Neeltje Jans.



http://www.neeltjeja...gin-of-the-name








#102    Abramelin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 01:46 PM

Btw, about a possible Hebrew origin of the name (see former post)...
It is known that the Phoenicians sailed to England during the tin trade, around 450 BC ("Himilco"). We know that Phoenician was related to ancient Hebrew, and the godess may originally have been a (sea)godess of the Phoenician pantheon. If that is true, then this thin lead is a dead-end.

http://phoenicia.org/himilco.html




#103    Harte

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 03:38 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 October 2009 - 01:16 PM, said:

In old Norse legends absulutely nothing can be found that points to some kind of real flood (only something in a creation myth and lots of blood from a giant):
Abramelin,

As much as I hate speculation based on legends, I don't see what the problem is with the frost giant flood you mentioned.

A flood is a flood and the giants killed were the frost giants.

The flood of Doggerland sort of corresponds to the "death" of the frosty ice age, doesn't it?

Seems less of a stretch than an awful lot of other posts I've seen around here regarding the sources of legends.

Harte

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#104    Abramelin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 04:04 PM

View PostHarte, on 14 October 2009 - 03:38 PM, said:

Abramelin,

As much as I hate speculation based on legends, I don't see what the problem is with the frost giant flood you mentioned.

A flood is a flood and the giants killed were the frost giants.

The flood of Doggerland sort of corresponds to the "death" of the frosty ice age, doesn't it?

Seems less of a stretch than an awful lot of other posts I've seen around here regarding the sources of legends.

Harte


The problem is that it could mean anything because it doesn't contain a lot of detail concerning a flood, it's much too general.... a giant dies, his blood spills, voila, a flood.

I can imagine a myth about angry seamonsters 'pulling a country down into the dark depths of the sea", or a certain people getting punished by a couple of gods or by a seagod/des, something about people having to run/flee for their lives, something about those who survived, anything

But it appears the only myth with something resembling detail is the Irish Book of Invasions/Conquest.


#105    Abramelin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 07:18 PM

Here's another shot in the dark......

I mentioned the Fomorians of the Irish "Lebor Gabála Érenn" (Book of Invasions of Ireland).

They were there in Ireland a couple of centuries before Partholan, the Tuatha De Danann, and the Firbolg; these other peoples arrived after the "deluge".

The Fomorians were described as people with the body of a human and the head of a goat, or something.

To me that means people wearing something of a helmet with horns attached, much like the way we see the good old Vikings.

They were seen as seafarers, pirates, an evil lot.

Wherever they came from has not been recorded, but their name (see earlier posts) might point to Scandinavia.

Scandinavia just means from somewhere from the east/north east - of Ireland -  here. Maybe Scotland, maybe Scandinavia, maybe people from Doggerland who travelled around the north of Scotland (well, that's what I think it means).

Now, the most ancient inhabitants of Scotland were the Picts.

And up to know, no one is sure who these Picts were, what language they spoke, and how long they lived in Scotland.

There are those who think they were proto-Europeans, and people living there long before the Celts arrived. If that is true - knowing that certainly during prehistoric times Scotland wasn't the best place to live in (extreme cold, wind, ice, fog, and all that scheise), they may have come there as refugees from a more hospitable land they had to flee from for god knows what reason (who wants to live in post ice-age Scotland out of free will? Only if you have no other options, right?)

So, the question is: were the Fomorians the same people as the (later) Picts?
Next question: if the former is true, might they have been refugees from Doggerland??





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