Doggerland

[Abramelin]

No, it was a beautifully made documentary about an ancient submerged land inhabited by hunter-gatherers.

But yeah, I knew you would find it boring because you obviously never read one post of this thread.

Doggerland is interesting when you are interested in pre-history, human migrations, genetics, geology, language, myths and so on.

Doggerland is not at all interesting when you have dreams about it being some sort of Atlantis the way Plato described it.

EDIT:

But don't worry, I found something very interesting:

Time Magazine Online, today, June 16, 2008, reports the ruins of an ancient stone wall which formed a huge oval enclosure, 3,000 feet by 1,000 feet in area, submerged 5 miles east of the island of Helgoland, which is 28 miles north from the german port of Husum on the North Sea coast. These ruins are of an ice age city, now on the seafloor, 5 miles from the nearest shoreline, in 30 feet of water, which was a low hill during the Ice Age, overlooking the mouth of the ice age Elbe River into the North Sea, far out from today's shoreline, from when sea level was much lower, when much of the North Sea floor was dry land.

http://dancingfromge...nuth-port-husu/

Alas, I could not find the original article online, and I will bet that the truth was less spectacular than how it was described on that website.

In post #259, page 18 of this thread I showed a couple of pics, amongst which the next one:

And I said:

I have this image of some big port at the mouth of the Elbe, many thousands of years ago. Not the Dogger Bank hill, nah, a city/settlement located near the mouth of the Elbe, the mouth of that river where it was back then: almost in the middle of the present North Sea.

Soooo...if anyone is able to find that Time Magizine Online article of June 16 2008, I would appreciate that very much.

(EDIT:

All I could find was a very old article about Jürgen Spanuth from September 8, 1952:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,935699,00.html

And it's about the same find, but I had hoped this article from June 16, 2008, could give us more information.

I know think the writer of the website that quoted that article got his dates mixed up....sigh)

Edited April 17, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Earlier in this thread I suggested that the ancient Doggerlanders may have started building huge wooden structures, but that after they had to flee Doggerland they started using stone, and with that started the Megalithic culture that flourished for several thousands of years in western Europe.

I also suggested that they may have been the ones responsible for (the wooden precursor of) Stonehenge.

Another one of my ideas was that they may have gone to nearby countries, like Ireland (as the "Tuatha De Danann").

But if they did indeed used timber made from oak trees - and Doggerland was densily forested, lots of oak there - anything they built must have been flushed down the drain with the Storegga Slide, so no wooden structures will be left to find.

Today I found something I never heard of before, but it appears to have been in the news a year ago:

Wood you believe it? Stonehenge find at Tara

By Louise Hogan

Saturday April 11 2009

SCIENTISTS have unearthed what appears to be a mammoth wooden version of the famous Stonehenge monument at the Hill of Tara.

In a revealing new RTE documentary, many theories and insights into the country's prehistoric past and 150,000 ancient monuments are unveiled and explained.

For the first time, people will be able to view a computer-generated recreation of what archaeologists believe was a major wooden structure -- a version of Britain's Stonehenge -- at the ancient seat of the Irish high kings in the Hill of Tara in Co Meath.

Archaeologist Joe Fenwick revealed a LiDAR (Light Detecting and Ranging) laser beam had been used to scan the ground surface to create a three-dimensional map, which revealed more than 30 monuments around Tara.

Using another technique -- described as taking an X-ray through the hillside -- archaeologists discovered the huge monument, a ditch stretching six metres wide and three metres deep in the bedrock.

The ditch, circling the Mound of the Hostages passage tomb, separated the outside world from the ceremonial centre of Tara.

It was believed the ancient architects had also surrounded the ditch with a massive wooden structure on each side -- a version of Stonehenge -- on a large scale. Its sheer size meant a whole forest would have had to be cleared to build it.

"In scale, it is comparable, for example, to Croke Park's pitch. The Hill of Tara had enormous ritual significance over the course of 5,000-6,000 years, so it's not surprising that you get monuments of the scale of the ditch pit circle," said Mr Fenwick, from the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway.

Cutting-edge technology is helping to provide a new insight into the lives of our ancestors, according to the documentary makers behind 'Secrets of the Stones'.

Civilisation

It shows Ireland's first civilisation began 7,000 years ago, they withstood major climatic changes and voyaged throughout Europe, returning with new religions and mementos.

An RTE spokesman said the broadcaster, along with the Department of Education, would be sending two free copies of the book accompanying the series to all second-level schools in the country.

The first part of the 'Secrets of the Stones' will be shown on RTE One at 6.30pm on Easter Monday.

- Louise Hogan

http://www.independe...ge-find-at-tara-

EDIT:

To refresh your memory about the voyage of the Tuatha De Danann:

post #226, page 16

Edited April 19, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Because no one appears to give a rat's ass about what's been posted here, I could as well post a nice song about the Dogger Bank (of course, it was the favorite song of the Tuatha De Danann...)

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited April 20, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Earlier in this thread I suggested that the ancient Doggerlanders may have started building huge wooden structures, but that after they had to flee Doggerland they started using stone, and with that started the Megalithic culture that flourished for several thousands of years in western Europe.

I also suggested that they may have been the ones responsible for (the wooden precursor of) Stonehenge.

Another one of my ideas was that they may have gone to nearby countries, like Ireland (as the "Tuatha De Danann").

But if they did indeed used timber made from oak trees - and Doggerland was densily forested, lots of oak there - anything they built must have been flushed down the drain with the Storegga Slide, so no wooden structures will be left to find.

Today I found something I never heard of before, but it appears to have been in the news a year ago:

Wood you believe it? Stonehenge find at Tara

By Louise Hogan

Saturday April 11 2009

SCIENTISTS have unearthed what appears to be a mammoth wooden version of the famous Stonehenge monument at the Hill of Tara.

In a revealing new RTE documentary, many theories and insights into the country's prehistoric past and 150,000 ancient monuments are unveiled and explained.

For the first time, people will be able to view a computer-generated recreation of what archaeologists believe was a major wooden structure -- a version of Britain's Stonehenge -- at the ancient seat of the Irish high kings in the Hill of Tara in Co Meath.

.. i give a rat's Abramelin ... interesting stuff about the doggerland. To be honest tho.. i've sort of been thinking that most of whatever was going on there was also going on in the adjoining lands ?

The wood Henge find at Tara is fantastic... it looks very much like the "wooden precursor " At Stonehenge.

Do you know which is older? ..Being Irish , i'm pulling for the Tara one .

[Abramelin]

quote name='Abramelin' date='19 April 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1271700752' post='3382651']

Earlier in this thread I suggested that the ancient Doggerlanders may have started building huge wooden structures, but that after they had to flee Doggerland they started using stone, and with that started the Megalithic culture that flourished for several thousands of years in western Europe.

I also suggested that they may have been the ones responsible for (the wooden precursor of) Stonehenge.

Another one of my ideas was that they may have gone to nearby countries, like Ireland (as the "Tuatha De Danann").

But if they did indeed used timber made from oak trees - and Doggerland was densily forested, lots of oak there - anything they built must have been flushed down the drain with the Storegga Slide, so no wooden structures will be left to find.

Today I found something I never heard of before, but it appears to have been in the news a year ago:

Wood you believe it? Stonehenge find at Tara

By Louise Hogan

Saturday April 11 2009

SCIENTISTS have unearthed what appears to be a mammoth wooden version of the famous Stonehenge monument at the Hill of Tara.

In a revealing new RTE documentary, many theories and insights into the country's prehistoric past and 150,000 ancient monuments are unveiled and explained.

For the first time, people will be able to view a computer-generated recreation of what archaeologists believe was a major wooden structure -- a version of Britain's Stonehenge -- at the ancient seat of the Irish high kings in the Hill of Tara in Co Meath.

.. i give a rat's Abramelin ... interesting stuff about the doggerland. To be honest tho.. i've sort of been thinking that most of whatever was going on there was also going on in the adjoining lands ?

The wood Henge find at Tara is fantastic... it looks very much like the "wooden precursor " At Stonehenge.

Do you know which is older? ..Being Irish , i'm pulling for the Tara one .

These wooden henges (the one in Tara and the precursor of Stonehenge) are of about the same age. But it is now known that the area where Stonehenge is located was occupied thousands of years earlier.

[lightly]

Awesome Abramelin.. i love to see the timeline recede. i get a tolyaso! feeling

[Abramelin]

Awesome Abramelin.. i love to see the timeline recede. i get a tolyaso! feeling

I wish I knew what that meant.... I googled for a definition of 'tolyaso', and got nothing. Then I searched pics (Safe Search Out), and all I got was pics of pretty women...heh.

I will bet it's a nice feeling.

[cormac mac airt]

Earlier in this thread I suggested that the ancient Doggerlanders may have started building huge wooden structures, but that after they had to flee Doggerland they started using stone, and with that started the Megalithic culture that flourished for several thousands of years in western Europe.

I also suggested that they may have been the ones responsible for (the wooden precursor of) Stonehenge.

Another one of my ideas was that they may have gone to nearby countries, like Ireland (as the "Tuatha De Danann").

But if they did indeed used timber made from oak trees - and Doggerland was densily forested, lots of oak there - anything they built must have been flushed down the drain with the Storegga Slide, so no wooden structures will be left to find.

Today I found something I never heard of before, but it appears to have been in the news a year ago:

Wood you believe it? Stonehenge find at Tara

By Louise Hogan

Saturday April 11 2009

SCIENTISTS have unearthed what appears to be a mammoth wooden version of the famous Stonehenge monument at the Hill of Tara.

In a revealing new RTE documentary, many theories and insights into the country's prehistoric past and 150,000 ancient monuments are unveiled and explained.

For the first time, people will be able to view a computer-generated recreation of what archaeologists believe was a major wooden structure -- a version of Britain's Stonehenge -- at the ancient seat of the Irish high kings in the Hill of Tara in Co Meath.

Archaeologist Joe Fenwick revealed a LiDAR (Light Detecting and Ranging) laser beam had been used to scan the ground surface to create a three-dimensional map, which revealed more than 30 monuments around Tara.

Using another technique -- described as taking an X-ray through the hillside -- archaeologists discovered the huge monument, a ditch stretching six metres wide and three metres deep in the bedrock.

The ditch, circling the Mound of the Hostages passage tomb, separated the outside world from the ceremonial centre of Tara.

It was believed the ancient architects had also surrounded the ditch with a massive wooden structure on each side -- a version of Stonehenge -- on a large scale. Its sheer size meant a whole forest would have had to be cleared to build it.

"In scale, it is comparable, for example, to Croke Park's pitch. The Hill of Tara had enormous ritual significance over the course of 5,000-6,000 years, so it's not surprising that you get monuments of the scale of the ditch pit circle," said Mr Fenwick, from the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway.

Cutting-edge technology is helping to provide a new insight into the lives of our ancestors, according to the documentary makers behind 'Secrets of the Stones'.

Civilisation

It shows Ireland's first civilisation began 7,000 years ago, they withstood major climatic changes and voyaged throughout Europe, returning with new religions and mementos.

An RTE spokesman said the broadcaster, along with the Department of Education, would be sending two free copies of the book accompanying the series to all second-level schools in the country.

The first part of the 'Secrets of the Stones' will be shown on RTE One at 6.30pm on Easter Monday.

- Louise Hogan

http://www.independe...ge-find-at-tara-

EDIT:

To refresh your memory about the voyage of the Tuatha De Danann:

post #226, page 16

I'm curious as to what makes you believe that the Tuatha de Danann came from Doggerland. Having read copies of the "Annals of the Four Masters" as well as the "Lebor Gebala Erenn" in my files there is nothing to suggest that origin, as well as the fact that the chronology given in the above suggests a time roughly 4300 years AFTER Doggerland ceased to exist. Greeks and Scythia are mentioned, but nothing even resembling Doggerland is.

cormac

[jmccr8]

Hello Abramelin,

Do not let my silence fool you,I applaude the effort that you have put into this thread.As I was not familiar with the topic until you posted it and have been following your development with much interest.I find it most educational and will continue to follow along.Thank you for your efforts.jmccr8

[lightly]

I wish I knew what that meant.... I googled for a definition of 'tolyaso', and got nothing. Then I searched pics (Safe Search Out), and all I got was pics of pretty women...heh.

I will bet it's a nice feeling.

haha, sorry Abramelin.. it means " I told you so" .. meaning.. i've just always had this idea... that the history of mankind is longer.. broader.. deeper... better... and even more complex than we know.

* and ya... i agree with what jmccr said.

Edited April 21, 2010 by lightly

[Abramelin]

I'm curious as to what makes you believe that the Tuatha de Danann came from Doggerland. Having read copies of the "Annals of the Four Masters" as well as the "Lebor Gebala Erenn" in my files there is nothing to suggest that origin, as well as the fact that the chronology given in the above suggests a time roughly 4300 years AFTER Doggerland ceased to exist. Greeks and Scythia are mentioned, but nothing even resembling Doggerland is.

cormac

I explained that earlier: The Tuatha De Danann (and the Fomorians) are said to have come from Lochlann.

Now Lochlann was the name later used for Scandinavia, or even Scythia on the Baltic coast, and even north(-west) Germany.

As I have quoted in a former post, the next text (from 1862) seems to point in the direction of Doggerland of which existence the writer back then had no idea of:

Lochlan was the north of Germany, extending from

the Rhine to the Elbe, and the name of Lochlanach

was originally applied to the ancient traditionary pirates

termed the Fomorians. When the Norwegian and Dan-

ish pirates appeared in the ninth century, they were like-

wise called Lochlanach ; and the name of Lochlan was

transferred to Norway and Denmark, from whence they

came. There is every reason to believe that the Low

German race were preceded, in the more ancient Lochlan,

by a Celtic people.

http://www.archive.o...cluoft_djvu.txt

I know the legends were written down thousands of years later, but the general idea is that the Fomorians and the Tuatha De Danann came from the north to Ireland. But the north is only the direction they came from as seen from Ireland, and their homeland was called Lochlann (several spellings). Lochlann was also a name for some mythical land below the sea.

The Formorians arrived there first (before Partholan and his people), the Tuatha De Danann arrived later.

Yes, the timing appears to be several millennia off, but I have thought about the time of the actual final sinking of the last remnants of Doggerland: all the scientists are sure of is that the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide - 6100 BC - must have whiped it clean, but does that mean it was submerged from then on? We have all seen what happened with the Atjeh province of Indonesia in 2004: it was also whiped clean, but it's still above water and its people returned.

Although because of the isostatic rebound and the rising sea levels Doggerland or its remants would have been flooded soon enough anyway, it may be possible that even after the tsunami whiped it clean, it may still have been inhabitable for a 1000 or more years after, and be repopulated by maybe the ones that first had to flee it (see Atjeh).

And the names, Fomorians and Tuatha De Danann, may be nothing but names of peoples that arrived in Ireland long before the Irish people gave them these names in their legends, millennia later.

What is suggested by scientists is that the Doggerlanders were seafarers (more than enough trees to build boats and/or canoes), and also that the hunter-gatherers living on Doggerland used the surrounding countries as hunting grounds during summer time and retreated to Doggerland when it was colder because it was low lying and so warmer then those surrounding countries. But when Doggerland finally sank, its inhabitants went to the countries they formerly only visited to hunt (swine, deer, and so on) and fish (on whales, seals, cod, whatever).

They have found proof of Doggerland being a very wooded area, lots of oak and other trees (pollen, tree stumps), and I think that whatever structures they built was made of these trees. The area where Stonehenge is located was already inhabited many thousands of years before the famous stone structure was erected, and it is suggested it was originally a death cult. Now why 'death cult'? Well, if they were refugees from Doggerland, they may have wanted to remember all the thousands of people who died during the tsunami, in this former post-ice age 'paradise'. I read of a similar death cult around the Hill of Tara, Ireland, and in Dartmoor, south England.

I know what you're going to say: there is no evidence of all that. But to me it is a real possibility, and not that far out.

.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

A bit more about the possible origins of the Tuatha De Danann:

From Wiki:

The etymology of the word Denmark, and especially the relationship between Danes and Denmark and the unifying of Denmark as a single Kingdom, is a subject which attracts some debate.The debate is centered primarily around the prefix 'Dan' and whether it refers to the Dani or a historical person Dan and the exact meaning of the -mark ending. The issue is further complicated by a number of references to various Dani people in Scandinavia or other places in Europe in ancient Greek and Roman accounts (like Ptolemy, Jordanes, and Gregory of Tours), as well as some medieval literature (like Adam of Bremen, Beowulf, Widsith, and Poetic Edda).

Most handbooks derive the first part of the word, and the name of the people, from a word meaning "flat land", related to German Tenne "threshing floor", English den "cave", Sanskrit dhánuṣ- ("desert"). The -mark is believed to mean woodland or borderland (see marches), with probable references to the border forests in south Schleswig, maybe similar to Finnmark, Telemark, or Dithmarschen.

In Old Norse, the land was called Danmerkr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

Denmark, its submerged areas on its present western shores, was the eastern part of Doggerland. Even untill 1500 BC Denmark was twice as large as it is now, and inspired Juergen Spanuth (together with what he claimed he found at the sea floor near Helgoland - see earlier post) for his not very convincing "Atlantis in the North" story.

The meaning of 'dan' as flatland, and 'mark' as woodland (or marches??) seem to fit Doggerland nicely.

The question is of course much of a linguistic one. Could Doggerland, if it had a name at all, have had 'dan' in its name? And was the word 'dan' more ancient than is assumed now (Germanic), and maybe even pre-Indo-European or Uralic (Uralic or proto-Uralic or proto Finno_Ugric may have been the language spoken by the people of the Maglemosian culture which was spread out from an area between eastern England and the Baltic)??

The translation of "Tuatha De Dannann" may then have been "the people of the goddes of the Low Lands" instead of "the people of the goddess Dana".

LOL, or even "the people of the goddess of Flatland".

Edited April 21, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I want to say this: thanks Lightly and Jmccr8 for the compliments, but...

I need input, and Cormac seems to be the only one questioning what I post here, and that's a good thing.

It's nothing but a big puzzle, and you people should add new pieces to this puzzle.

[cormac mac airt]

I know what you're going to say: there is no evidence of all that. But to me it is a real possibility, and not that far out.

The flip side of this Abramelin is that a possibility, with no corroborating evidence, is the beginnings of a "house of cards". I myself try to stay away from such things. That's why I'm holding out for real, verifiable evidence suggesting how significant, or not, Doggerland actually was to peoples of that time and place. I'm confident that that evidence will come.

...it may be possible that even after the tsunami whiped it clean, it may still have been inhabitable for a 1000 or more years after,...

The downside to this is that there is no evidence that any possible remaining portion of Doggerland was still above water by the 2nd millenium BC, which is when the story of the Tuatha de Danann was alleged to have occurred.

cormac

Edited April 23, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[Abramelin]

The flip side of this Abramelin is that a possibility, with no corroborating evidence, is the beginnings of a "house of cards". I myself try to stay away from such things. That's why I'm holding out for real, verifiable evidence suggesting how significant, or not, Doggerland actually was to peoples of that time and place. I'm confident that that evidence will come.

cormac

I know, we need real evidence.

But as long as new research stays out, I just try to fill in the gaps.

Like Jane Aruel (spelling??) with her novels about pre-history is doing.

Why don't you post what you know about the Tuatha De Danann? All I know is what I read in the books written by Lady Augusta Gregory, the comic books of Fitzpatrick, several other books (like "Pagan Celtic Britain" by Anne Ross), some Teach Yourself books on Irish Gaelic, and what I found online.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

Jean Auel - Clan of the Cave Bear Valley of Horses Plains of Passage, etc.

I was just thinking about her this morning and thinking she must have studied a lot of things before writing her books, and it turns out she did!!

I like your Doggerland thread, but I didn't want to mess it up with vacant posts, since I know nothing about it, but am following along to learn.

[jmccr8]

Hell Abramelin,

I thought that I would poke around a bit to see if I could find something to bring to the table so to speak and I ended up at The Twilight Zone.I read the 14 pages there and saw that you have some feedback there to your quest.I will look around still and see if there is some way in which I may be able to participate in a constructive manner.jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

I know, we need real evidence.

But as long as new research stays out, I just try to fill in the gaps.

Like Jane Aruel (spelling??) with her novels about pre-history is doing.

Why don't you post what you know about the Tuatha De Danann? All I know is what I read in the books written by Lady Augusta Gregory, the comic books of Fitzpatrick, several other books (like "Pagan Celtic Britain" by Anne Ross), some Teach Yourself books on Irish Gaelic, and what I found online.

Hi Abramelin,

Here are a few things from Irish texts concerning the Tuatha de Danann that may be of interest to you.

From: Annals of the Four Masters

The Age of the World, 3303 (c.1897 BC)

The tenth year of the reign of Eochaidh, son of Erc; and this was the last year of his reign, for the Tuatha De Dananns came to invade Ireland against the Firbolgs; and they gave battle to each other at Magh Tuireadh, in Conmaicne Cuile Toladh, in Connaught, so that the King Eochaidh, son of Erc, was killed, by the three sons of Neimhidh, son of Badhrai, of the Tuatha De Dananns; Ceasarb, Luamh, and Luachra, their names. The Firbolgs were vanquished and slaughtered in this battle.

From: Chronicon Scotorum (concerning the same event)

Kal. Anno Mundi 2390. A.M.2390 In this time the Tuatha De Danann, viz.,

Dealbaeth, and Bress, the Daghda, Nuadha, and Ogmha, and the rest, overcame

the Fir Bolg.

Back to: Annals of the Four Masters

The Age of the World, 3304 (c.1896 BC)

The first year of the reign of Breas, son of Ealathan, over Ireland; for the Tuatha De Danann gave him the sovereignty, after gaining the battle of Magh Tuireadh Conga, while the hand of Nuadhat was under cure.

The Age of the World, 3471 (c.1729 BC)

The first year of the three last kings of the Tuatha De Dananns, who were in joint sovereignty over Ireland. These were Mac Cuill, Mac Ceacht, and Mac Greine.

The Age of the World, 3500 (c.1700 BC)

The fleet of the sone of Milidh came to Ireland at the end of this year, to take it from the Tuatha De Dananns; and they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis with them on the third day after landing. In this battle fell Scota, the daughter of Pharaoh, wife of Milidh; and the grave of Scota is to be seen between Sliabh Mis and the sea. Therein also fell Fas, the wife of Un, son of Uige, from whom is named Gleann Faisi. After this the sons of Milidh fought a battle at Tailtinn, against the three kinge of the Tuatha De Dananns, Mac Cuill, Mac Ceacht, and Mac Greine. The battle lasted for a long time, until Mac Ceacht fell by Eiremhon, Mac Cuill by Eimhear, and Mac Greine by Amhergin.

Their three queens were also slain; Eire by Suirghe, Fodhla by Edan, and Banba by Caicher. The battle was at length gained against the Tuatha De Dananns, and they were slaughtered wherever they were overtaken. There fell from the sons of Milidh, on the other hand, two illustrious chieftains, in following up the rout, namely Fuad at Sliabh Fuaid, and Cuailgne at Sliabh Cuailgne.

From: Geoffrey Keating’s History of Ireland, Books I and II

As regards the Tuatha Dé Danann, when they saw the people of Syria prevailing over the people of the country, they, in one band, depart from that territory, for fear of them, and they made no stay till they came to the country of Lochlonn, i.e. Fionn-Lochlonn, viz. the people of Norway, where they got welcome from the people of the country for the extent of their science and of their varied arts. It is Nuadha Airgeadlámh, son of Euchtach, son of Edarlámh, of the posterity of Neimheadh who was chief over them at that time. Indeed, they obtained four cities, so as to be teaching the young folk of that country in them. The names of the cities here: Fáilias, Gorias, Finias, and Murias. The Tuatha Dé Danann place four sages in those cities to teach the sciences and the varied arts they had to the youths of the country; Semias in Murias, and Arias in Finias, and Eurus in Gorias, and Morias in Fáilias. After being a while of their time in these cities, they proceed to the north of Scotland, so that they were seven years at Dobhar and at Iardobhar. They had four noble jewels, which they brought from those cities, namely, a stone of virtue from Fáilias; it is it that is called Lia Fáil; and it is it that used to roar under each king of Ireland on his being chosen by them up to the time of Conchubhar (as we mentioned before), and it is to that stone is called in Latin Saxum fatale. It is from it, moreover, is called Inis Fáil to Ireland.

So here, Lochlonn is said to be in Norway and the four cities of the Tuatha de Danann are also in Norway.

The Annals of the Four Masters, the Chronicon Scotorum and Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland, Books I and II can be found here:

Corpus of Electronic Texts (CELT)

cormac

[Abramelin]

Jean Auel - Clan of the Cave Bear Valley of Horses Plains of Passage, etc.

I was just thinking about her this morning and thinking she must have studied a lot of things before writing her books, and it turns out she did!!

I like your Doggerland thread, but I didn't want to mess it up with vacant posts, since I know nothing about it, but am following along to learn.

Ah yes, Jean Auel.

Qoais, I think that's the fascinating part of this topic: nobody really knows anything about Doggerland. OK, only its possible topography, climate, flora and fauna, and a bit of its people and culture.

So to me its like a puzzle, and I am trying to find pieces that might fit into it.

[Abramelin]

Hell Abramelin,

I thought that I would poke around a bit to see if I could find something to bring to the table so to speak and I ended up at The Twilight Zone.I read the 14 pages there and saw that you have some feedback there to your quest.I will look around still and see if there is some way in which I may be able to participate in a constructive manner.jmccr8

Hah, yes, that's my own site, and I have been talking with a woman from Finland overthere. She had some thoughts about the genetics and culture and religion of Doggerland, based on her knowledge of the (pre-)history of Finland.

Although I am not a linguist, I asked her what "land near ice" is in her language... "maalähelläjää".... That sounded a lot like Nehalennia in my ears. The reason I asked her is that it is suggested that 10000 BC the people from England to the Baltic may have spoken some form of proto Finno-Ugric/Uralic. That combined with what a linguist (?) said about the name of the sea-goddess Nehalennia - it looked like a construction in Finnish - made me think that the name of the goddess may originally have been the name of the country she was goddess of.

A wild guess, of course, but Doggerland was even around 10000 BC not the frozen ice-covered tundra it was always thought it was; the surrounding countries, like Britain and Norway were (covered in ice sheets). So that made me think of a name, like 'land near ice'.

And I know present day Finnish must be very different from that ancient language, so there is a big chance this it completely wrong.

[Abramelin]

Hi Abramelin,

Here are a few things from Irish texts concerning the Tuatha de Danann that may be of interest to you.

From: Annals of the Four Masters

From: Chronicon Scotorum (concerning the same event)

Back to: Annals of the Four Masters

From: Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland, Books I and II

So here, Lochlonn is said to be in Norway and the four cities of the Tuatha de Danann are also in Norway.

The Annals of the Four Masters, the Chronicon Scotorum and Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland, Books I and II can be found here:

Corpus of Electronic Texts (CELT)

cormac

Yes Cormac, I know they said that the Tuatha De Danann came from Norway, but that's an interpretation of centuries later, and very probably based on where the much later arrivals from Norway (=Vikings) came from.

As far as I know (but I will have to check) is that originally the only thing known about where the Tuatha De Danann came from is that they came from the north of Ireland, in ships, sailing 'through the clouds' or something.

Thanks for the link, I will read it when I have time.

[cormac mac airt]

Yes Cormac, I know they said that the Tuatha De Danann came from Norway, but that's an interpretation of centuries later, and very probably based on where the much later arrivals from Norway (=Vikings) came from.

As far as I know (but I will have to check) is that originally the only thing known about where the Tuatha De Danann came from is that they came from the north of Ireland, in ships, sailing 'through the clouds' or something.

Thanks for the link, I will read it when I have time.

Considering that the Vikings are 8th century AD, at the earliest, and the Annals of the Four Masters are a compilation of monastic annals starting from before the 12th century AD, one can reasonably assume the Irish knew the difference between Vikings and any earlier peoples from Scandinavia. Or from anywhere else for that matter. Particularly as there were people in Ireland well before the 8th century.

From the Lebor Gebala Erenn:

So that they were the Tuatha De Danann who came to Ireland. In this wise they came, in dark clouds. They landed on the mountains of Conmaicne Rein in Connachta; and they brought a darkness over the sun for three days and three nights.

This is all part-and-parcel of the same Irish legends. The story from the Lebor Gebala Erenn identifies well with that told in the Annals of the Four Masters. Neither of which shows any indication that the Irish based their annals on the vikings.

It should be noted here that IF the Irish were to have in fact conflated the story of the Vikings with that of the Tuatha de Danann then anything related, concerning the Tuatha de Danann, becomes entirely irrelevant to the discussion of Doggerland.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Considering that the Vikings are 8th century AD, at the earliest, and the Annals of the Four Masters are a compilation of monastic annals starting from before the 12th century AD, one can reasonably assume the Irish knew the difference between Vikings and any earlier peoples from Scandinavia. Or from anywhere else for that matter. Particularly as there were people in Ireland well before the 8th century.

From the Lebor Gebala Erenn:

This is all part-and-parcel of the same Irish legends. The story from the Lebor Gebala Erenn identifies well with that told in the Annals of the Four Masters. Neither of which shows any indication that the Irish based their annals on the vikings.

It should be noted here that IF the Irish were to have in fact conflated the story of the Vikings with that of the Tuatha de Danann then anything related, concerning the Tuatha de Danann, becomes entirely irrelevant to the discussion of Doggerland.

cormac

Cormac, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here, and no doubt that is based on the way I abuse the English language, lol. Or else it's just that I do not really understand your last post.

I will now do my best to tell you what I think MIGHT have happened, in short statements:

- Some 8000 years ago a people arrived in Ireland, coming from the north.

- The natives of Ireland created stories, myths and legends about these people, and these stories were being repeated for thousands of years.

- Much later these stories were put on paper/stone/whatever. The mythical land these people came from was called "Lochlann" (many different spellings in Irish and Welsh). Lochlann was a mythical land somewhere north/north-east of Ireland, and also a land below the waves.

- These mythical people were later called the "Tuatha De Danann"

- At 800 AD (??) the Vikings arrived in Ireland.

- They also came from the north of Ireland, in their ships.

- The people of Ireland of course asked them where they came from, and the Vikings said , "Skanda", "Scandinavia", "Norway", "Sweden", "Denmark" or whatever, hell knows what they said

- The monks who put the legends down on paper equated "Lochlann" with Scandinavia, just because the people of those ancient legends came from the same direction/country as the Vikings did.

But my idea is this: the ancient invaders could also have been the Fomorians. Well, they were not much of invaders, really, they were the first inhabitants of Ireland according to Keating (they were there centuries before the people of Partholan entered Ireland after 'the flood', and they looked different (dark complexion).

These Fomorians were seafarers/pirates.

[Qoais]

I know I'm a slow learner and all, but it seems to me that until it's proven that people had ocean going vessels of some kind, one can hardly call people "pirates" from 8000 years ago, if they didn't have ocean going vessels. In another thread there was a post about dug out logs that were capable of being used in the ocean, although I think they must have been really hard to steer. Mostly, I think, dug out canoes were used for rivers and lakes. I've always said that I don't agree with the time lines science puts on some things, and perhaps the ocean going vessel is one of those things. In another forum, I had a snotty little brat say to me "Well, duh - it's only common sense people had ships 10,000 years ago because they settled on islands"!

In Irish mythology, the Fomoiri or Fomoire, sometimes anglicised to Fomorians[1] (later in Middle Irish also, Fomóraig), were a semi-divine race who inhabited Ireland in ancient times. They may have once been believed to be the beings who preceded the gods, similar to the Greek Titans. It has been suggested[who?] that they represent the gods of chaos and wild nature, as opposed to the Tuatha Dé Danann who represent the gods of human civilization. Alternatively, they may represent the gods of a proposed pre-Goidelic population of Ireland.

Etymology

The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[2] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[3] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[4] Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[5][6] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

Sorry in advance for swearing - but when I was researching the Atlantis thing, one of my first questions was - what is a god and what can it do? The second question was - Where did the gods come from?

If the "gods" were just a way to explain natural phenomenon, how is it then, that people are gods? Are we to assume that these gods were on the earth in those days, performing these feats of nature so that man was held in awe of these creatures?

What I'm trying to say is, there really were NO gods. So if the first people on Ireland came from somewhere in the North, they were people, humans. Right? Unless of course, one wants to concede that "aliens" visited here. So surely their lineage could be traced here on earth, with all our scientific technology. What about the DNA testing?

Edited April 23, 2010 by Qoais

[Abramelin]

I know I'm a slow learner and all, but it seems to me that until it's proven that people had ocean going vessels of some kind, one can hardly call people "pirates" from 6000 years ago, if they didn't have ocean going vessels. In another thread there was a post about dug out logs that were capable of being used in the ocean, although I think they must have been really hard to steer. Mostly, I think, dug out canoes were used for rivers and lakes. I've always said that I don't agree with the time lines science puts on some things, and perhaps the ocean going vessel is one of those things. In another forum, I had a snotty little brat say to me "Well, duh - it's only common sense people had ships 10,000 years ago because they settled on islands"!

In Irish mythology, the Fomoiri or Fomoire, sometimes anglicised to Fomorians[1] (later in Middle Irish also, Fomóraig), were a semi-divine race who inhabited Ireland in ancient times. They may have once been believed to be the beings who preceded the gods, similar to the Greek Titans. It has been suggested[who?] that they represent the gods of chaos and wild nature, as opposed to the Tuatha Dé Danann who represent the gods of human civilization. Alternatively, they may represent the gods of a proposed pre-Goidelic population of Ireland.

Etymology

The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[2] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[3] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[4] Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[5][6] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

Sorry in advance for swearing - but when I was researching the Atlantis thing, one of my first questions was - what is a god and what can it do? The second question was - Where did the gods come from?

If the "gods" were just a way to explain natural phenomenon, how is it then, that people are gods? Are we to assume that these gods were on the earth in those days, performing these feats of nature so that man was held in awe of these creatures?

What I'm trying to say is, there really were NO gods. So if the first people on Ireland came from somewhere in the North, they were people, humans. Right? Unless of course, one wants to concede that "aliens" visited here. So surely their lineage could be traced here on earth, with all our scientific technology. What about the DNA testing?

First: thanks for even giving feedback. It means more to me than you will ever imagine.

Second: they have found whale bones, bones that were worked on. You dont hunt whales weighing 10 tons or more with nothing but a dugout canoe.... But if these people did, they must have been really brave guys, hats off

Pirates?? If these peoples were able to hunt whales with whatever they used to sail the seas, then they were also able to visit foreign lands, and impose their skills upon the people they met.

In short: they were people with balls, not easliy afraid.

If you are able to hunt 10 tons (or weighing lots more) whales with nothing but a dug-out canoe, you have my appriciaition.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Abramelin