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Global floating ice in "constant retreat"


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#16    danielost

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:50 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 29 April 2010 - 11:40 PM, said:

Any known and recognised cyclic processes are either very long term (Milankovich cycles) or incorperated into the models to the best of the modellers abilitys. If it is a recognised cycle then the climate change we are experiencing is on top of it.

Your argument ignores the precautionary principle, if there is a high probability that our actions will cause catastrophic planetary changes then we should modify our actions in such a way as to make those outcomes highly improbable. It certainly will be a bit to late to admit that we made a mistake once that damage has been done as then there is no going back for man. Every single change needed to address climate change is will make our existence on this planet more sustainable. If we decide to wait and see our unsustainable lifestyle will have got us anyway.

None of this is admitting that climate change is not the issue, but even if it wasn't we should be taking action anyway, every single metric shows that all ecosystems on the planet are under strain to the point of collapse.

Br Cornelius

the key to my argument thank  you.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#17    Br Cornelius

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:53 AM

View Postdanielost, on 29 April 2010 - 11:50 PM, said:

the key to my argument thank  you.

Modeling into the future is the weakness of the science of climate change, but it doesn't disprove the science of the changes we are experiencing and mans contribution. I have always acknowledged that complex systems are difficult to predict - but almost any induced change would be catastrophic for such a complex society as our own.
Your do nothing and hope for the best attitude, is denial of something which you don't want to face.

Br Cornelius

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#18    Watchers

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:56 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 07:53 AM, said:

Modeling into the future is the weakness of the science of climate change, but it doesn't disprove the science of the changes we are experiencing and mans contribution. I have always acknowledged that complex systems are difficult to predict - but almost any induced change would be catastrophic for such a complex society as our own.
Your do nothing and hope for the best attitude, is denial of something which you don't want to face.

Br Cornelius

And the attitude of "do something random to try and help, and waste millions in doing so" attitude isn't the right direction either. I think until we've fully pinpointed something as a direct cause to a problem, we shouldn't alter our behavior.


#19    Br Cornelius

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:23 AM

View PostWatchers, on 30 April 2010 - 07:56 AM, said:

And the attitude of "do something random to try and help, and waste millions in doing so" attitude isn't the right direction either. I think until we've fully pinpointed something as a direct cause to a problem, we shouldn't alter our behavior.
We have an good understanding of the causes and we know what to do about it. The fact that we can't model the ultimate outcome is not the critical thing here, we are changing things and we can stop. This would be the best thing to do as our society is not good at handling change and so doing nothing will stress our civilisation.

The world is having difficulty accepting responsibility for our part in all this. This is classic basic psychology of a crisis or life threatening situation.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#20    danielost

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:49 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 08:23 AM, said:

We have an good understanding of the causes and we know what to do about it. The fact that we can't model the ultimate outcome is not the critical thing here, we are changing things and we can stop. This would be the best thing to do as our society is not good at handling change and so doing nothing will stress our civilisation.

The world is having difficulty accepting responsibility for our part in all this. This is classic basic psychology of a crisis or life threatening situation.

Br Cornelius


there something i agree with, not what you meant,  but we can and should stop our pollution as we are able to.  but right now an electric car may not have a tailpipe, but the power station that makes the electric probable does.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#21    Br Cornelius

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 01:27 PM

View Postdanielost, on 30 April 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

there something i agree with, not what you meant,  but we can and should stop our pollution as we are able to.  but right now an electric car may not have a tailpipe, but the power station that makes the electric probable does.

The changes needed are far more radical than electric cars. Wholesale reorganisation of society to allow minimum consumption by default.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#22    danielost

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:33 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 01:27 PM, said:

The changes needed are far more radical than electric cars. Wholesale reorganisation of society to allow minimum consumption by default.

Br Cornelius


the only way you are going to get what you and all the environmentalists want is to do away with all of the cities and replace them with towers that go up to orbit.  although that would take most of the iron that we are using for other things like cities and cars and rails.   you do understand even if this took place roads and rails and ships would still be needed.  and, i don't see us doing this in the near future.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#23    Ashtarel

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:36 PM

View PostWatchers, on 29 April 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

And just to stir up the pot some more, those concepts essentially prove that Global Warming is a bunch of hippie crazed propaganda. Climatic changes are not influenced by humans, they are cyclical events that happen on a much larger scale. To think that we have anything to do with it is absolutely absurd.

You had me right up to the end, when all of a sudden, you went to flipping your top and bottom lips with the side of your forefinger, making that gibbering-idjut lawn mower engine sound. Where'd you go, sugar?

Peace
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Carly Corday

Edited by Ashtarel, 30 April 2010 - 04:13 PM.


#24    Br Cornelius

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 04:25 PM

View Postdanielost, on 30 April 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

the only way you are going to get what you and all the environmentalists want is to do away with all of the cities and replace them with towers that go up to orbit.  although that would take most of the iron that we are using for other things like cities and cars and rails.   you do understand even if this took place roads and rails and ships would still be needed.  and, i don't see us doing this in the near future.

I've done the math, and almost nothing works out well.
We have dug ourselves a very deep hole and then burnt the ladder we needed to get out.
There are absolutely no easy solutions to the mess we are in.

The problem is that doing nothing is worse.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#25    Ignus Fatuus

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 05:40 PM

This garbage is not going to stop until the next ice age!!!

The global scam artists have their backs up against the wall and as many predicted the garbage is stinking worse and worse.  All they have now that many have gotten a clue is the fear factor.  If this does not work then they will pass some sort of legsilation which will steal money out of our pockets.  

Climate change is real folks ... not global scamming!!!  They have already pushed their agenda and if it fails then many with too much money and power will lose that money and power.  Greed, lies and scandal!!!  This is the heart of this issue ... get a clue or lose your cents!!!!!!


#26    31415

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 05:49 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

I've done the math, and almost nothing works out well.
We have dug ourselves a very deep hole and then burnt the ladder we needed to get out.
There are absolutely no easy solutions to the mess we are in.

The problem is that doing nothing is worse.

Br Cornelius

It seems that action that drastic would have an effect on economics as well, and from what I have read that isn't good either, but at least that has a long history of being studied in a robust scientific process. If the strategy is to make pollution so anti-economical that people simply cannot afford to transport their goods or services, then we will not have access to to the other goods that hurt the environment. We would essentially be living in the iron age, but it may save the environment at least.


#27    J.B.

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:08 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

I've done the math, and almost nothing works out well.
We have dug ourselves a very deep hole and then burnt the ladder we needed to get out.
There are absolutely no easy solutions to the mess we are in.

The problem is that doing nothing is worse.

Br Cornelius


There are simple ways to weather the storm at least. Coirnelius, have you watched any lectures by Bjorn Lomborg yet? He discusses a lot of simple ways to lessen the impacts of GCC.


#28    Br Cornelius

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:09 PM

View PostJ.B., on 30 April 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:

There are simple ways to weather the storm at least. Coirnelius, have you watched any lectures by Bjorn Lomborg yet? He discusses a lot of simple ways to lessen the impacts of GCC.

No, but I am always willing to learn. I will take a look.

I don't think we would return to the Iron age, the knowledge we now have has changed our reality. I think things would be radically different, but ultimately might offer a better quality of life. Fundamentally our lifestyle is wasteful, and especially of human resources. If we can hold onto information exchange then our brains are the only limit to what we can achieve.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#29    J.B.

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:23 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 30 April 2010 - 07:09 PM, said:

No, but I am always willing to learn. I will take a look.

I don't think we would return to the Iron age, the knowledge we now have has changed our reality. I think things would be radically different, but ultimately might offer a better quality of life. Fundamentally our lifestyle is wasteful, and especially of human resources. If we can hold onto information exchange then our brains are the only limit to what we can achieve.

Br Cornelius


If we buried a repository, like the Library of Congress, deep under ground and had a smart order of people who were willing to protect it, I'd accept the possibility of temporarily falling back in technology to fix this. However, I will not support another Library of Alexandria happening and us permanently losing what we've learned.


#30    danielost

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:38 PM

View PostJ.B., on 30 April 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

If we buried a repository, like the Library of Congress, deep under ground and had a smart order of people who were willing to protect it, I'd accept the possibility of temporarily falling back in technology to fix this. However, I will not support another Library of Alexandria happening and us permanently losing what we've learned.
i dont think it will happen for a third time.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.




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