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Pyramid Texts for Astral Travel


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#181    SlimJim22

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 02:34 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 May 2010 - 11:41 PM, said:

The Scythian language was Eastern Iranian, the Hebrew language is Semitic. Neither are directly related, so any similarity between the words “Scythian” and “Succoth” are meaningless.

In Herodotus’ History 4.6, the Scythians called themselves Skolotoi. The word Skythes, itself, is Greek.

Meaning, origin and etymology of the name Succoth

AFAIK, the Old Persian name for the Scythians “Saka” has nothing to do with booths, but specifically meaning either “wanderer” or “nomad”.

Only in your own mind, crystal sage.

Sadly, Slim, there is no actual evidence that the Scythians and the Cimmerians were one and the same. The previous link that you are so excited about is poorly researched, to say the least. It smells of British Israelism. I'm disappointed by how easily you're taken in. Sad, that.

British Israelism

cormac

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 May 2010 - 11:41 PM, said:

The Scythian language was Eastern Iranian, the Hebrew language is Semitic. Neither are directly related, so any similarity between the words “Scythian” and “Succoth” are meaningless. In Herodotus’ History 4.6, the Scythians called themselves Skolotoi. The word Skythes, itself, is Greek.Meaning, origin and etymology of the name SuccothAFAIK, the Old Persian name for the Scythians “Saka” has nothing to do with booths, but specifically meaning either “wanderer” or “nomad”.Only in your own mind, crystal sage.Sadly, Slim, there is no actual evidence that the Scythians and the Cimmerians were one and the same. The previous link that you are so excited about is poorly researched, to say the least. It smells of British Israelism. I'm disappointed by how easily you're taken in. Sad, that.British Israelismcormac
Cormac, there is no need for such a derisory tone. You are making leaps in your judgment that do not apply to me as I see it. British Israelism is the belief in a connection between ancient Israel and the British Isles. I am fine with that part but I don't see the Royal family as descended from the House of David. You are assuming that I have come to conclusions when I have not. I really thought you understood my posiiton but I shall try and spell it out once again.Firstly, the hebrews were not exactly as we led to believe. For example, I don't think kosher was as it is today but revolved around sacrifice and ritual purity rather than day to day habits. If I am wrong and there is evidnece please show me. Secondly, is the issue of language. You seem to think that languages all evolved independently whereas I see them as all having some connections. They could be phonetic connections or in translation but I obviously don't know enough to give examples, I am just following my nose and what makes sense. It is all too easy to get hung up on semitic and IE languages but hebrew has a lot of similarities with welsh or cymric. Because the hebrews were know as Ombri and this changed into Gomri and Ciimerians, I think it is very importnat. The problem is that it is incredibly complex and I admit that I am often confused, who wouldn't be trying to digest this stuff?There are ten lost tribes that need to be accounted for if we consider that they were not extreminated. I think the most likely suggestion is that they integrated with various other tribes and some connection may have carried over. Fro me, Saccae as wandered makes sense as that is exactly what they were. There is enough connecting celtic and hebrew tarditions to say they had a shared origin in ancients times. The welsh triads stated that Hu the mighty was the first foreigner to settle Britain. I would equate Hu with Joshua but as you are aware Hu is a term that originates in sanskrit I believe. The links I read and post invariably have an agenda but this does not devalue the entirety of their argument. I try and discriminate between the useful and the useless information and there is usually a mix of both from my perspective. I totally admit that I am bias towards supporting the possibility of shared origins transferred through mystery traditions but I am actively trying to research the possibilities and remove the impossibiltiies. i am afraid that your arguments do not make me think that what I suggest is impossible, in fact the more I research the more unexpected connections I find. Debate the facts and stop trying to make this personal. I am keen to learn from you and others but please refrain from condemnations of my approach. There are only so many hours in the day and from my POV I am doing what I can and trying to do it in a way that is more academically acceptable. Granted I have a long way to go but at the same time I'm enjoying the trip, for the most part at least. Having read your links I can see where you are coming from but it seems like a debate that is far from finished. Sure the genetics do not support the theory but there is a fair bit that does within the same wiki link. Just because some people have used british-israelism to glorify the west does not mean that that is the only conclusion. Ever seen Conan? From what I can remmeber he was of a northern IE tribe who was taken prisoner by, presumably the Assyrians before he could take revenge. Obviously, this is not historically accurate after that point but the northern tribes were taken captive and who is to say that some escaped and set up home elsewhere. That some of them got organized as the celts would seem reasonable and the smiliarities in culture between celts and scythians is surely testament to this. The hebrew connection is more subtle but imo can be found in the traditions of the druids that became more and more pagan over time, perhaps to hide the truth.

http://www.sacredcon...acing-dan3.html

http://www.viewzone.com/matlock.html

http://britam.org/language.html

I appreciate the Behistun rock can be interpreted in different ways but the sakka - scythian reltionship seems the most likely imo.

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#182    crystal sage

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 02:44 PM

Here's a map that shows the  sites mentioned above... those 25000 plus tablets from the Nineveh and the 23000 plus tablets from the Mari site...
My link

The other one...were tablets from ancient Tushhan was even further away..
My link

Quote

The discovery was made at the site of Ziyaret Tepe, along the banks of the Tigris River in the Diyarbakir Province of southeastern Turkey. Ziyaret Tepe was an important urban center during the late Iron Age, from 882 to 611 BC, and has been identified as the Assyrian Provincial capital of Tushan. Here, Matney discovered clay tablets with cuneiform script written and stored in the palace archives 3,000 years ago.

“This is one of the most important archaeological discoveries anywhere in the world this year,” says Dr. Michael Shott, UA professor of archaeology and chair of the university’s Department of Classical Studies, Anthropology and Archaeology.

Matney says his discovery of the cuneiform tablets, written in the Late Assyrian dialect, includes a list of women’s names. “Because the tablet was found in the reception room of the palace, we are possibly looking at a list of women who were employed by the palace as agricultural workers,” Matney says, adding that surprisingly none of the names on the tablets are Assyrian, but may represent another ethnic group in the area.

“This means that these women belonged either to the original indigenous population subordinated by the Assyrians in the 9th century BC, or to a group of foreigners who had been deported to Tushan. The precise identification of their linguistic background awaits detailed analysis and the results will shed an important light on the ethnic composition of this corner of the Assyrian Empire,” writes epigrapher and expedition team member Dr. John MacGinnis, a University of Cambridge archaeologist.

Some interesting background???
My link
..a review on  Olmstead's work..

My link
B)
With these new digs.. maybe the history can be rewritten a little..

Edited by crystal sage, 01 June 2010 - 02:59 PM.


#183    kmt_sesh

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:07 PM

View Postcrystal sage, on 01 June 2010 - 10:32 AM, said:

B)


>>>
I think there were several loads of tablets found in various areas..
What about the Mari tablets

My link

There have been a great many hoards of tablets found hither and yon, yes. The Ebla tablets are, however, the only ones with which I'm familiar that people have tried to attribute to the Old Testament. Texts and correspondence found at Mari would have even less to do with the Hebrew bible. These texts are principally important for shedding light on our understanding of the Mari ruler Zimrilim and his interactions with the Babylonian king Hammurabi. Hammurabi sacked and destroyed Mari around 1759 BCE, and Mari was never again occupied. This was over 500 years before the earliest attested evidence for the Hebrews.

Other hoards of tablets have surfaced at important Assyrian sites, as some of your other links mention. At least we're getting closer to the right timeframe--it was the Assyrians who destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel and unsuccessfully laid siege on Jerusalem--but I am not aware of any of their historical or religious records that one can realistically tie to the Hebrew bible beyond the Assyrians' records of conquests in the Levant.

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#184    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:41 AM

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You are making leaps in your judgment that do not apply to me as I see it.

Considering that only the last bit about British Israelism was addressed to you, I'm not making leaps of judgement. The connections aren't there, linguistically, although there are some (crystal sage) who apparently would like it to be true. And BI is not just about an alleged connection with Israel, but also with a poorly researched and unfounded "connection" from around the 17 century between Cimmerian and Cymry, which doesn't actually exist. Again, the site is baseless.

Quote

You are assuming that I have come to conclusions when I have not.

No, I'm noticing that you appear to be going all "Oh, Golly Gee, How Great" over something that is trash.

Quote

For example, I don't think kosher was as it is today but revolved around sacrifice and ritual purity rather than day to day habits.

I'd think that any Jewish Rabbi would consider that as a "no-brainer", especially since it is pretty apparent that that's the general idea as given in the Old Testament.

Quote

You seem to think that languages all evolved independently whereas I see them as all having some connections.

No, each language grew out of its part of the overall language family. Taking words from two or more disparate linguistic families, that sound similar, and claiming that there's a connection, is what there is no evidence for and therefore baseless, IMO.

Quote

They could be phonetic connections or in translation but I obviously don't know enough to give examples, I am just following my nose and what makes sense.

Not to sound harsh, but do you have enough knowledge of linguistics to know what actually has a basis in fact, or are you just going on "gut feeling"? If the latter, then you're only comparing apples to oranges.

Quote

Because the hebrews were know as Ombri and this changed into Gomri and Cimerians, I think it is very importnat.

This is where things go sour, as there is no actual evidence of this claim.

Quote

There are ten lost tribes that need to be accounted for...

No there aren't as there is no evidence amongst any Assyrian writings that they (the Assyrians) captured, or otherwise held, the entirety of 10 full Hebrew tribes. Amongst those who were taken, it can be reasonably assumed that they mixed with their captors, either by default or design. The real question here, is how many of those who returned to Israel afterwards would have been considered full Hebrews. Particularly as Hebrews were not supposed to mix with non-Hebrews.

Quote

Debate the facts and stop trying to make this personal.

Wasn't trying to make this personal, but I've yet to see any facts. If believing in every half-baked, poorly researched, fringe idea making "connections" is what you wish to do, though, then apparently my time is wasted. Sorry to interrupt your fantasy.

cormac

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#185    kmt_sesh

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 01:38 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 01 June 2010 - 02:34 PM, said:

You seem to think that languages all evolved independently whereas I see them as all having some connections. They could be phonetic connections or in translation but I obviously don't know enough to give examples, I am just following my nose and what makes sense.

I just wanted to contribute a couple of comments, starting with this. Some of what I say might parrot remarks cormac has made, so forgive me if that's the case.

Languages are an incredibly complicated subject, and one must spend years of study to understand on a working level how languages originated, evolved, and spread; likewise, one must take care to apply serious research to how any two languages might or might not be related, particularly if they're from divergent families. As cormac warned, the fact that a couple of words from two different languages might sound alike, really doesn't matter on the face of it. There is a particular risk for the student struggling to find connections when he sees a couple of ancient words spelled in modern English and posits there must be a connection because they sound alike and are spelled similarly. Remember that languages like ancient Egyptian and Akkadian and Hebrew did not employ an alphabet, as we think of it. A word from an ancient script spelled in modern English is nothing more than an approximation on the part of the linguist to try to present something of how the word sounded when spoken.

Yes, all languages do have a connection. Linguists have been playing with this concept for a great many years, trying to reconstruct something of the original human tongue spoken somewhere in Africa tens of thousands of years ago. To date, all attempts to do so have been admittedly speculative and for the most part imaginary; the linguists themselves who have been struggling with this task often do not agree with one another. It's simply too far back in time to reconstruct. And simply put, after Homo sapien sapiens developed language skills, they migrated out of Africa so far back in time and spread out on such a vast scale that the original "mother tongue" diverged into dizzying numbers of wholly separate families. In other words, the connection that was once there was lost long, long ago.

It was only with the advent of writing that languages began to be preserved. In the scope of human history and for all of the millennia that mankind has been speaking, the advent of writing occurred but a blink ago. Written language is critical for the linguist to gain a full understanding of the tongues people have spoken, and sadly many, many more languages are dead and forgotten than those that are spoken today. And even today, languages are dying.

I've already droned on more than I intended to, so to cut it short, if you think there is a real connection between a word spoken in an ancient Semitic tongue and a word spoken in an Indo-European tongue, you have to be able to dig into the histories of the speakers and establish how this came to be. I can guarantee you, however, the fact that the word might sound similar in the two tongues is rarely going to be enough to prove the connection. The human vocal apparatus can produce only so many sounds, so there are bound to be examples of this all over the world. That does not mean there are linguistic connections, however.

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Because the hebrews were know as Ombri and this changed into Gomri and Ciimerians, I think it is very importnat.


The Hebrews never collectively known as the Ombri. The actual word in English is Omri, to be picky. Omri was one of the most powerful kings of the northern kingdom of Israel and established a short-lived dynasty we call the House of Omri (Bit Humria). So you're talking about a king who founded a line of kings that lasted I believe for around 40 years, but not about an entire people.

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The problem is that it is incredibly complex and I admit that I am often confused, who wouldn't be trying to digest this stuff?

Yes, it can be confusing. A very important part of research--and I cannot emphasize this enough--is the material one chooses to study. I know this oft-repeated warning of mine generally falls on deaf ears at UM, but the best material to choose is of course that written by people professionally trained to study and present the material in question. The internet is rarely a reliable basis for research. Recently you presented some web links in another post, Slim (I can't remember if it was in this thread or another), and I noted that you yourself warned that some of the information in those links smacked of fringe but that it was interesting. I was going to comment then but never got around to it, so here's my opportunity now. The fact that you yourself noticed the dubious nature of some of the information tells me you're more than intelligent enough to search out better-quality material. And if you yourself are reasonably certain that some of the material in a web page is dubious, then you can be safe in assuming that the entire web page is not worth your time. Yes, it may present some real facts, but the fact that it contains questionable material means the entire thing is suspect and ought not to be trusted. At all.

There, I'll climb down off my stump now and shut the hell up. This is really between you and cormac, but I wanted to jump in a bit, too. :D

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#186    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 03:26 AM

OK, I've been reading up some more on the pyramids design and the texts and everything...it does seem to me the pyramid has been built as basically a vehicle for astral travel as I said, for when he was DEAD. His soul travelled through the heavens to join with Osiris so it is astral travelling and since the soul wasn't really dead to them it does equate to an astral travelling experience from the pyramid. I'll add some of the book I have to type it out.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#187    crystal sage

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 05:13 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 01 June 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

There have been a great many hoards of tablets found hither and yon, yes. The Ebla tablets are, however, the only ones with which I'm familiar that people have tried to attribute to the Old Testament. Texts and correspondence found at Mari would have even less to do with the Hebrew bible. These texts are principally important for shedding light on our understanding of the Mari ruler Zimrilim and his interactions with the Babylonian king Hammurabi. Hammurabi sacked and destroyed Mari around 1759 BCE, and Mari was never again occupied. This was over 500 years before the earliest attested evidence for the Hebrews.

Other hoards of tablets have surfaced at important Assyrian sites, as some of your other links mention. At least we're getting closer to the right timeframe--it was the Assyrians who destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel and unsuccessfully laid siege on Jerusalem--but I am not aware of any of their historical or religious records that one can realistically tie to the Hebrew bible beyond the Assyrians' records of conquests in the Levant.


You forget about the earlier characters of the bible.. some say they were from much earlier times...

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The Akkadians established this empire from Babylon, northeast to Asshur, northwest to Haran, and across to the Mediterranean.

Abraham is believed to have existed during the reign of this Amorite kingdom.

His journey from Ur to Haran more than likely carried him through the city of Mari. The Akkadians in Mari kept impeccable records of their kingdom. These record would lead historians to rewrite the historical time line of the Ancient Near East.

My link

My link

Quote

That would place Abraham's entrance into Canaan at 2086 BC, and his birth at 2161 BC, since he was seventy-five years old when he left Haran for Canaan (Genesis 12:4). The Patriarchal period, then, would extend from 2086 BC to 1871 BC, and the Egyptian sojourn from 1871 to 1441 BC.
       If we reject the synchronism of 1 Kings 6:1 and read the 480 as being short hand for twelve generations (12x40 = 480), then we can perhaps argue that a generation more realistically is only twenty years, so that puts the Exodus at about 1290 BC. Thus, Abraham then entered Palestine about 1935 BC, he was born about 2010 BC. If we use the LXX dates for the Egyptian sojourn, then Abraham entered Palestine about 1720 and was born about 1795.

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. In this region of northwest Mesopotamia there is unmistakable evidence of the extended Hebrew residence in the vicinity of the Balikh and Habur rivers, two tributaries of the Euphrates east of the great bend south of ancient Carchemish.

A. Abraham's Sojourn at Haran:

       The town of Haran (Gen. 11:31; 12:5) is still in existence on the Balikh River sixty miles west of Tell Halaf. It was a flourishing city in the nineteenth and eighteenth centuries BC, as is known from frequent references to it in cuneiform sources. The name appears in Assyrian documents as Harranu (road) likely because here the trade route from Damascus joined the highway from Nineveh to Carchemish. Sinularly enough, like Ur, Abraham's birthplace, it was also the seat of worship of the moon god from very ancient times. Whether Terah chose Haran as a place to settle because he had not broken with his idolatry, or perhaps from commercial reasons, can, of course, only be guessed at.
       The city of Nahor, which was Rebekkah's home (Gen. 24:10), occurs often as Nakhur in the Mari tablets, discovered in 1935 and dating from the eighteenth century BC. To judge from the Mari references and Assyrian records of the seventh century BC, where Nahor occurs as Til-Nakhiri (the Mound of Nahor), it seems to have been located in the Balikh Valley below Haran. Beside the definite location of the patriarchal cities Haran and Nahor in northwestern Mesopotamia, hardly less clear indications of Hebrew residence in this region appear in the names of Abraha's forefathers, which correspond tothe names of towns near Haran: Serug (Assyrian Sarugi), Nahor, and Terah (Til Turakhi, "Mound of Terah", inAssyrian times). Other immediate ancestors and relatives of Abraham listed in Genesis 11:10-30 have left traces in this territory, called Paddan-Aram (Aramaic paddana, the field or plain of Aram) in Genesis 25:20, 26:6-7, and so on. Reu also corresponds to later names of towns in the Middle-Euphrates valley. Peleg, for example, recalls later Paliga on the Euphrates, just above the mouth of the Habur.
       Beside definite geographical links between the Hebrew patriarchs and their earlier residence in northwest Mesopotamia, a number of the early patriarchal narratives indicate a formative influence from this region. Terah not only died in Haran (Gen. 11:31-32) from which city Abram then migrated to Canaan (Gen. 12:4), but a wife for Isaac was fetched from "the city of Nahor" (Gen. 24:10). Jacob fled to Haran (Gen. 27:43) from Esau's wrath, and he lived in Paddan-Aram at least twenty years while in Laban's employ (Gen. 29:1-31:55).


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1. Abraham and the Discoveries at Nuzi:

       Nuzi was excavated between 1925 and 1941. It is located southeast of Nineveh, not far from modern Kirkuk, and it has yielded several thousand documents. These tablets provide numerous illustations of the customs which figure in the patriarchal narratives. The people of Nuzi (or Nuzu) were Hurrians (the Horites of the KJV) Old Testament

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. In the time of Abram (c. 2100 BC) Mari was one of the most flourishing and brilliant cities of the Mesopotamian world, and the patriarch and his father Terah probably passed through thise petropolis on their way to Haran.        The large number of the tablets discovered present diplomatic correstpondence teween Zimri-Lim, the last king of Mari, with his ambassadors and agents and with Hammurappi, the king of Babylon (c. 1728-1685 BC).
       Abraham's migration from Ur, according to the Biblical chronology, however, took place some four hundred years before the period of the Mari letters and the reign of Zimri-Lim. At this time "the region about Haran was probably under the control of Mari." The city of Nahor (Genesis 24:10) is mentioned quite frequently in the Mari letters.
       In the light of the interesting fact that Abram is the first person in the Bible to bear the name Hebrew (`ibri) (Genesis 14:13), the occurrence of the term "Habiru" in the Mari letters (eighteenth century BC) and earlier in the Cappadocian texts (nineteenth century BC) as well as in the later Nuzi, Hittite, Amarna and Ugaritic texts (15th-14th centuries BC) is significant, since the philological equation Hebrew - Habiru seems not unreasonable. The wide occurance of the term Habiru shows that the term "is not an ethnic designation, for the Habiru of these various texts are of mixed racial origin, including both Semitic and non-Semitic elements, but its fundamental meaning seems to be 'wanderers', 'those who pass from place to place.'"
       Placing the Habiru in a much wider context as a result of archeological discoveries is not an embarrssment to the Biblical representations. Eber as an ancestor of the Hebrews (Gen. 11:16f.) included more than Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. Some of his posterity were evidently left in Babylonia when Terah migrated with his family, and some were left in northern Mesopotamia when Abram migrated from Haran.

My link

Edited by crystal sage, 02 June 2010 - 05:19 AM.


#188    SlimJim22

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:54 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 June 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:

Considering that only the last bit about British Israelism was addressed to you, I'm not making leaps of judgement. The connections aren't there, linguistically, although there are some (crystal sage) who apparently would like it to be true. And BI is not just about an alleged connection with Israel, but also with a poorly researched and unfounded "connection" from around the 17 century between Cimmerian and Cymry, which doesn't actually exist. Again, the site is baseless.

No, I'm noticing that you appear to be going all "Oh, Golly Gee, How Great" over something that is trash.

I'd think that any Jewish Rabbi would consider that as a "no-brainer", especially since it is pretty apparent that that's the general idea as given in the Old Testament.

No, each language grew out of its part of the overall language family. Taking words from two or more disparate linguistic families, that sound similar, and claiming that there's a connection, is what there is no evidence for and therefore baseless, IMO.

Not to sound harsh, but do you have enough knowledge of linguistics to know what actually has a basis in fact, or are you just going on "gut feeling"? If the latter, then you're only comparing apples to oranges.

This is where things go sour, as there is no actual evidence of this claim.

No there aren't as there is no evidence amongst any Assyrian writings that they (the Assyrians) captured, or otherwise held, the entirety of 10 full Hebrew tribes. Amongst those who were taken, it can be reasonably assumed that they mixed with their captors, either by default or design. The real question here, is how many of those who returned to Israel afterwards would have been considered full Hebrews. Particularly as Hebrews were not supposed to mix with non-Hebrews.

Wasn't trying to make this personal, but I've yet to see any facts. If believing in every half-baked, poorly researched, fringe idea making "connections" is what you wish to do, though, then apparently my time is wasted. Sorry to interrupt your fantasy.

cormac

Well that sure told me cormac. I do appreciate it though as in most cases you are right. My knowledge of linguistics is flawed but I am going on a combination of intuition and what I have picked up along the way. I'll try and narrow my points so hopefully any evidence will show through.

Here is a link with some good information and I'll try and verify it with ancient sources if I can later.

http://www.abcog.org/abp3a.htm

So, here are some things that intuition tells me is relevant. I will keep it restricted to Wales because that is what I know from experience. There are biblical sounding surnames sch as Adams, Isaac, Israel, Jacobs and some first names likes Boaz and jachin and relatively common compared to elsewhere.

As the five books of Moses took so long to be written down, can't we assume there was strong emphasis on oral traditions. The celtic bards had some of the strongest oral tradition but alone this is not enough to convey a link. For me the Eistedfods tradition of having twelve standing stones is linked to the twelve tribes bt no doubt you would argue that is a meaningless coincedence.

Not speaking welsh fluently or hebrew at all I am not qualified from making comparisons but I had a really good teacher for welsh and religion and he could speak both and claimed they were very closely connected. So, with all these little bits of information here and there you may see why I am drawn to a particular way of thinking. Especially for the purposes of research for my project and all the other baseless claims I have made on here.

Here is some information that could be contradictory or supportive but first could you clarify (anyone) if this is accurate or not. It seems to imply that the Cimmerians were forced out of their homeland by Scythians.

As Phrygian state was at its peak, under the king Midas, Anatolia was invaded by a new flog of people. This people were known as Gommers in the old testament, as Gimmirais in Assyrian records and Cimmerois in Greek sources, now we call the Cimmerians. Cimmerians, as told by Herodotus, lived on the Crimean peninsula to the north of Black Sea. When their land was attacked by Scythians, a wild and powerful people, they, in large groups, entered Anatolia and destroyed Urartian kingdom in the eastern Anatolia.

Assyrian king Sargon II, carried out many defense wars against Cimmerians, another Assyrian king Asahardon, agreed with Scythians, and drove  Cimmerians from eastern to central Anatolia.  Cimmerians, first time met Phrygians in this area, and defeated Phrygians in a battle in the year 676 BCE after which the king Midas killed himself by drinking bull blood.

The burial mound at Gordion is believed to be the king Midas'. The body found inside the burial chamber is of a short man at the age 60s. What surprised the archaeologists, who excavated this tomb, was the lack of gold in the burial chamber, because the king Midas was famous for his rich treasures. One of the reasons for that might be the Cimmerians, who probably looted the riches of Midas. About the same time, Gordion the capital city was burned and destroyed.

After destroying the Phrygians, Cimmerians continuing their march towards west, destroyed and sacked many Ionian cities including Miletus and Smyrna. Cimmerian invasion lasted for 80 years, and this period of 80 years in Anatolia was known as a period of terror and fear. The Assyrian king Asarhaddon gave Cimmerians a heavy attack in the year 679 BCE, and the remains of this people were destroyed by the Lydian king Alyattes in 609 BCE.


http://www.ancientan...gian_period.htm

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#189    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 01:02 AM

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Here is a link with some good information and I'll try and verify it with ancient sources if I can later.

From the bottom of your link:

Anglo-Israelism, British Israelism, America in Prophecy

You’re pretty much making my point for me, Slim. There are NO ancient sources. And British Israelism is about as meaningless as Christian Apologetics, to actual verifiable history.

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There are biblical sounding surnames such as Adams, Isaac, Israel, Jacobs and some first names likes Boaz and jachin and relatively common compared to elsewhere.

Which would be expected from a country that has been primarily Christian for much of the last 1500+ years. Many other names, dating to around that far back, show no evidence of a Biblical connection. Names such as:  Cormac Mac Airt; Aidan mac Gabhran; Iago ap Beli; Aed Brosc; Brychan Brycheiniog; Budic II; Cerdic; Cadwallon ap Einion; Coel Hen; Rhun Hir; Conan Meriadog and Pabo Post Prydain. There is nothing biblical, or even biblical sounding, about any of these names.

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As the five books of Moses took so long to be written down, can't we assume there was strong emphasis on oral traditions.

Sure, strong Hebrew traditions. Nothing celtic about them.

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For me the Eistedfods tradition of having twelve standing stones is linked to the twelve tribes bt no doubt you would argue that is a meaningless coincedence.

That tradition is only around 1000 years old, or so. Nothing there to link it to the ancient Hebrews.

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Here is some information that could be contradictory or supportive but first could you clarify (anyone) if this is accurate or not.

There is some likelihood that the Cimmerians were forced out of, or otherwise migrated from their homeland. But there is nothing to suggest any connection with the Israelites, nor any connections with the English or Welsh.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#190    kmt_sesh

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 01:23 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 June 2010 - 01:02 AM, said:

Names such as:  Cormac Mac Airt...

I don't know. If you say it with enough guttural force and with a deep enough voice, this seems somewhat Klingon to me. So there you have it. Sounds like it, so Cormac Mac Airt must be evidence that the early Celtic peoples were Klingon. What does your forehead look like? :w00t:

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#191    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 02:28 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 03 June 2010 - 01:23 AM, said:

I don't know. If you say it with enough guttural force and with a deep enough voice, this seems somewhat Klingon to me. So there you have it. Sounds like it, so Cormac Mac Airt must be evidence that the early Celtic peoples were Klingon. What does your forehead look like? :w00t:

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam, kmt_sesh.  :D

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#192    kmt_sesh

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 02:45 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 June 2010 - 02:28 AM, said:

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam, kmt_sesh.  :D

cormac

Now, I don't know a word of Klingon, so I have to ask...were you just hitting on me? :wub:
















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#193    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:06 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 03 June 2010 - 02:45 AM, said:

Now, I don't know a word of Klingon, so I have to ask...were you just hitting on me? :wub:
















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Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam -- It is a good day to die!  :P

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#194    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 05:15 AM

View Postcrystal sage, on 02 June 2010 - 05:13 AM, said:

You forget about the earlier characters of the bible.. some say they were from much earlier times...



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Hi Crystal Sage and thanks for that interesting info.

The early characters from the Bible could be from earlier times.

My own personal opinion is that the Battle of The Giants is the actual clash of the Greek Titans original story which goes back to around 2492BC.
This story relates that of Hayk, the founder of the Armenian people and who I believe Hector (of Troy) is modelled on as well as the cult of Apollo.
This is Hayk:
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Hayk was a handsome, friendly man, with curly hair, sparkling eyes, and strong arms. He was a man of giant stature, a mighty archer and fearless warrior. Hayk and his people, from the time of their forefathers Noah and Japheth, had migrated south toward the warmer lands near Babylon. In that land there ruled a wicked giant, Bel. Bel tried to impose his tyranny upon Hayk’s people. But proud Hayk refused to submit to Bel. As soon as his son Aramaneak was born, Hayk rose up, and led his people back to the land of his forefathers, the land of Ararat. At the foot of the mountains, he built his home, Haykashen.[5]
During Dyutsaznamart (Դյուցազնամարտ, "Battle of Giants"), near Julamerk southeast of Lake Van, dated to August 11, 2492 BC[8], Hayk slays Bel with an impossible shot using a long bow, sending his force into disarray.

Note he moves down into Babylon and is a grandson of Noah, through Japeth - Nimrod is also a grandson of Noah, through Ham. There is slight confusion as to whether the Battle of Hayk was with Bel or Nimrod, nevertheless Nimrod is a similar character and could be the same. That means the flood of Noah is probably based in Ararat as that is where Hayk flees back to after killing Bel (Nimrod) becoming an Armenian founder, the real people are the Hayasi and they are enemies of the early Hittites.
Bel the wicked giant is actually Hayk's cousin, since they are both grandsons of Noah, one through Japeth and one through Ham.


He establishes the castle of Haykaberd (Armenian: Հայկաբերդ) at the battle site and the town of Haykashen in the Armenian province of Taron (modern-day Turkey). He names the region of the battle Hayk‘ "Armenia", and the site of the battle Hayoc Dzor[9] (Armenian: Հայոց Ձոր, meaning gorge of the Armenians; 38°20′15″N 43°26′53″E / 38.337624°N 43.448080°E / 38.337624; 43.448080) which is in the Gürpınar district of the Van Province in Turkey.

But the hill where Bel with his warriors fell Hayk called Gerezmank.[10] Hayk embalmed the corpse of Bel and ordered it to be taken to Hark and to be buried in a high place in the view of his wives and sons.

The figure slain by Hayk's arrow is variously given as Bel or Nimrod. Hayk is also the name of the Orion constellation in the Armenian translation of the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayk

Slim, did you notice the beginning said about a Lake Hayq in Ethiopia, dont forget all the Ethiopia connections in the Bible.

I also think Haykashen could be the real Troy. Simply beacuse of the way Plato tells us Homer states: after a long time (after the deluge) they finally built Troy after the memories of the great deluge had left them, under a mountain, said to be Ida...(Laws Book 3). Mysterious everywhere Ida.

Hayk embalms Bel, which is apparent to me of an Egyptian mummification practice, Bel, who was probably Nimrod, becomes a God, that is Bel, Lord, who is later known as Zeus.

I say the real flood of Noah is in the North exactly at Ararat and after it migrations headed south reaching Sumeria. These people built the city and Nimrod who didn't like his own God anymore (probably because of the flood) rebelled against him. The Hebrews say their language is the one before Babel confusion. It is the language therefore of Noah from the area of Ararat and Armenia, people who headed down into Sumeria after the flood. Hayk probably spoke Hebrew.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 June 2010 - 05:24 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#195    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:12 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 June 2010 - 01:02 AM, said:

From the bottom of your link:

Anglo-Israelism, British Israelism, America in Prophecy

You’re pretty much making my point for me, Slim. There are NO ancient sources. And British Israelism is about as meaningless as Christian Apologetics, to actual verifiable history.

Which would be expected from a country that has been primarily Christian for much of the last 1500+ years. Many other names, dating to around that far back, show no evidence of a Biblical connection. Names such as:  Cormac Mac Airt; Aidan mac Gabhran; Iago ap Beli; Aed Brosc; Brychan Brycheiniog; Budic II; Cerdic; Cadwallon ap Einion; Coel Hen; Rhun Hir; Conan Meriadog and Pabo Post Prydain. There is nothing biblical, or even biblical sounding, about any of these names.

Sure, strong Hebrew traditions. Nothing celtic about them.


That tradition is only around 1000 years old, or so. Nothing there to link it to the ancient Hebrews.

There is some likelihood that the Cimmerians were forced out of, or otherwise migrated from their homeland. But there is nothing to suggest any connection with the Israelites, nor any connections with the English or Welsh.

cormac

Hey cormac, I'm not sure if we may be misunderstanding each other as regards the ten lost tribes. You may be under the impression that I think they were practising hebrews/Israelites. This is unlikely to be the case because there are passages where it states that they have turned away from the one true God. Well to be fair if your eople were getting massacred and imprisoned you would surely think God hath forsaken you. This is why perhaps paganism thrived so much in the north as the ten tribes dispersed mainly west at this time of the captivity. So, altough I see the celts and druids as having a hebraic origin, I say the same thing about the norse and their pagan origins. Just because they may have shared some common origin does not make them firm allies and chances are they soon forgot where they had come from and found themselves in a battle for survival. Alongside this was probably an impetus to redefine the cultural identites and hence the differences we find.

Clearly, I see the captivity and the ten tribes as being more significant that you do. I can respect your position and admit that I may be flogging a dead horse but I have stamina to take it a little further at least and see what can be found. Consider if what I am saying has any truth then how intentions may have been made to remove all traces just as attempts were made to preserve them.

Puzzler, I will have to look more into the Hayk connection with Ethiopia as it sounds really interesting.  :tu:  

http://www.ensignmes...lostisrael.html

http://www.religious....org/druid2.htm

http://www.1335.com/hebrew.html

http://www.bibleprobe.com/lost.htm

http://www.sacred-te...g/idr/idr30.htm

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