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Pyramid Texts for Astral Travel


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#196    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:33 AM

I am struggling to find any sources, other than the tablets already mentioned, that date to before the 11th century CE. That is not to mean that they did not exist before that but it seems that they were not written down prior to this time. I imagine that it was because to record such things was forbade but when the very existence of the bards became threatened it became necessary to retain a permanent copy. Here is a nice link that makes some strong connection in my view. Interesting to note that the 'Ox' was the tribe of Ephraim.

http://www.biblesear...esisrael8.shtml

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#197    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:46 AM

Quote

You may be under the impression that I think they were practising hebrews/Israelites.

In the least, they would have started out that way. Besides, many times in the Bible they turned away from God, only to have that decision come back and bite them in the ****.

Quote

This is why perhaps paganism thrived so much in the north as the ten tribes dispersed mainly west at this time of the captivity.

And again, there is no evidence that there were 10 lost tribes, nor that they dispersed mainly west. What is known from Assyrian texts don't even corroborate that claim. Several tribes of Hebrews didn't just up and go missing. Nor is there any relevancy to the Celts, as there were already Celtic peoples in Europe before the Captivity.

Quote

So, altough I see the celts and druids as having a hebraic origin...

Considering that the Celts date back to at least c.1200 BC and the Babylonian Captivity to c. 597 BC, there is nothing to suggest that the Celts have an Hebraic origin. Different timeline.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#198    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 12:07 PM

The Hebrew story starts way back, even before Noah with an apple, a pomegranate, more than likely.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Pomegranate

Thinking about Noah in Ararat and then Hayk killing Bel(Nimrod)in Babylon and coming back to the home of his forefathers to settle places Noah squarely in Armenia, right where Mt Ararat is. This is 2 generations after the deluge.

That to me places the origin of Abrahams story in the same area, as he does seem to pick it up as he is in the Harran area. What Abraham has done is left Ur, like Hayk, unhappy with the rule of Bel (Nimrod) and as he heads north he encounters his forefathers people and their religion. The religion Abraham takes on is his forefathers one that he had migrated south away from. The reason he has bought a plot for Sarah from a Hittite is clear, it is the Northern Hittite Armenian area that has sprouted his new found old religion. Sarah is buried there because it his own home, the place from where his people left when they migrated down to Sumeria. The God he encounters is his own God, a God he lost when moved south to Ur and Babylon as Bel/Nimrod had rejected this northern God, Abraham re-establishes his old religion of his forefathers, that is from Ararat and Armenia.

The story of Troy is Hector (Hayk) against Zeus (Bel), Zeus, a heathen God, it is reported that Saturn was a monotheistic God and Zeus was heathen. Troy may have been an early Hebrew town settled by Hayk as I said before in some other post.
This can place the story of the Hebrew people (if we are to refer to them as the (race) people who descended from those who lived in the area of the deluge of Noah and carried this tradition through until it was recorded in 6th century BC Hebrew language most likely in or after Babylon) from much earlier than their language testifies.

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#199    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 12:18 PM

I'm going to link this, it's a comparison of Abraham and the Greek Minyan Athamas.

http://church-of-yeh...rg/minyans.html
The story of Athamas is the Minyan version of the story about Abraham. He began a movement with the aim of abolishing that age old, and widespread, religious concept of human sacrifice -- and it’s companion tradition, cannibalism. Although we praise Abraham for his role in this abolition, it seems that some factions of the ancient Greeks were of a different opinion. They considered their Abrahamic equivalent Athamas -- and his descendants as well -- to be cursed for their part in the civilizing of mankind. Intricate details of Abraham’s life appear as parts of the Greek myth as well. I can’t think of another pair of ancient stories which are so similar, but never compared! Both were divinely commanded to sacrifice their own son with a knife on a mountain top, and each was about to comply when the child was saved by the miraculous appearance of a ram.

The ram was considered to have been supplied by God, and was said to have been acceptable to Him as a replacement sacrifice instead of the son of man. The symbol of the sacrificed lamb of God seems to have been a constant one, lasting from Abraham down through the Passover lamb of the Hebrew exodus -- and on as the image of the sacrificed Christ. For our present purposes however, let us not forget one important stop over, for this symbol, which was outside of the usual Judeo-Christian religious continuum, appears to have served the sea people of Greece as the quest of the Argonautic expedition.

The symbol of the sacrificed lamb of God appears in the Greek Myth complete with an association to the Hebrew story of the garden of Eden. The quest of the Argonauts, like the Biblical quest of all mankind, hangs in a tree in a sacred grove. There is a serpent, and the way is guarded. This association begs for the conclusion that these Greeks had some knowledge about the Hebrew concept of the original sin. No doubt they did, for they knew many intricate details of the Hebrew story -- including the sophisticated religious symbolism inherent in the parable of Abraham’s two wives.

Both Abraham and Athamas are said to have had a pair of competing wives, each of whom were obvious allegories of differing religious concepts. Offspring was born to each of the wives, and the quarrel concerned whose offspring and their attending religious concept, would be favored. This is true in both stories. Ino is the equivalent of Hagar, while Nephele is the equivalent of Sarah. Consider the Ino, Hagar identification first: The Greeks considered Ino to be the loser of the wifely quarrel. She was exiled and had to flee from her family home with her child in her arms, and was at the point of death when god intervened, granting Ino powerful miraculous abilities over water. This saved the lives of Ino and her son Melicertes, and they were appointed to become great religious icons among the people who lived in the land of her exile -- which we are told was Corinth in Greece. All of these motifs are straight from the life of Hagar, who was looked upon as symbolic of earthly Zion -- the covenant with slavery and death -- while Sarah was symbolic of freedom, the Heavenly Zion and the wife of God.

Now consider the identification of Nephele with Sarah: Nephele was created as a duplicate of Hera, the heavenly wife of god. Hers were the favored offspring who were carried off to the "land of  Egypt" (Colchis) from which they eventually had a miraculous epic deliverance (Argonautica). The son of Nephele was called Phrixus. Phrixus is the Minyan version of Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph -- all rolled into one. As Isaac he is almost offered up as a sacrifice by his father on a mountain top, but is saved at the last minute by the miraculous appearance of a ram. As Jacob he goes off to the "land of Egypt" where he stays until the end of his life. In each case his descendants returned and his bones are carried back home for burial. As Joseph, Phrixus has an episode with the wife of Aeetes (son of Helios, and king of Colchis), which is an obvious doublet of the same story told about Joseph with Potiphar.


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#200    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 03:21 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 June 2010 - 10:46 AM, said:

In the least, they would have started out that way. Besides, many times in the Bible they turned away from God, only to have that decision come back and bite them in the ****.

And again, there is no evidence that there were 10 lost tribes, nor that they dispersed mainly west. What is known from Assyrian texts don't even corroborate that claim. Several tribes of Hebrews didn't just up and go missing. Nor is there any relevancy to the Celts, as there were already Celtic peoples in Europe before the Captivity.

Considering that the Celts date back to at least c.1200 BC and the Babylonian Captivity to c. 597 BC, there is nothing to suggest that the Celts have an Hebraic origin. Different timeline.

cormac

Yes dating of the captivity is 7th century indeed but the dating of Abraham..  What between 2,200-1,500bce? Also, the Joshua I mentioned before, the first Hu pre-dates Abraham I am guessing, so we have hebrew connections as far as the British Isles from the bronze age. I presume this is tied in with phoenician mining operations in north wales.

So, the twelve tribes exist for a minimum of 800 years prior to the captivity but some of that time was spent at war with the Phillistines, the Elamaites and the Amorites to name a few. From Puzzlers information a link between hebrews and the Hittites seems reasonable. One suggestion for the origins of the Hittites is the sons of Heth. Heth is the fourth son of Canaan the cursed son of Ham and grandson of Noah. The assertion some are making is that the canaanites were under the other tribes in some capacity. I eman to say that they allegedly served them as in the tribes of the sons of Japheth and Shem. I don't really know what relevance this has but just because the captivity caused a quicken in migrations it is not to say that the tribes of Israel had not spread earlier. We have already discussed, though inconclusively, the role of the milesians in Iberia and the western isles, both being importnat to the tin trade. It is not an easy thing to pin down clearly but I think our perceptions of hebrews as jews is somewhat skewed by the literature that came out of Babylon.

The idea in principle is that the celts, hebrews, aryans, scythians etc held something in common in spite of racial and lingual differences. I'll shut up now but that is what I am getting at if anyone missed it.  :lol:  

I had never heard of Athamas so thanks heaps Puzz.  :tu:

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#201    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 11:08 PM

Hey guys, been trying to dig deeper and found two links. The first mentions Hayk on a king list and has Hurrian kings also. It doesn't mean anything but they had very indian sounding names to me.

The second is a bit more speculative and makes connections with the astrological signs and a lot more if you explore a little. Still I hope some decent info can be gleened.

http://www.imninalu.net/kings02.htm

http://www.mazzaroth...enceOfAbram.htm

I went back and read one of Crystal Sages' links and it was most interesting about the Habiru who above all seem to be a sort of wandering nomadic tribe of no fixed abode but who were valued highly for fighting skill and intellect. Also, very wealthy... Is it me or does that sound a bit like Scythians.   ;)  

I also found this on the Hallstatt culture who seem like a good avenue of enquiry for me.

http://www.visual-ar...tic-culture.htm

Edited by SlimJim22, 03 June 2010 - 11:08 PM.

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#202    cormac mac airt

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 12:24 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 03 June 2010 - 03:21 PM, said:

Yes dating of the captivity is 7th century indeed but the dating of Abraham..  What between 2,200-1,500bce? Also, the Joshua I mentioned before, the first Hu pre-dates Abraham I am guessing, so we have hebrew connections as far as the British Isles from the bronze age. I presume this is tied in with phoenician mining operations in north wales.

So, the twelve tribes exist for a minimum of 800 years prior to the captivity but some of that time was spent at war with the Phillistines, the Elamaites and the Amorites to name a few. From Puzzlers information a link between hebrews and the Hittites seems reasonable. One suggestion for the origins of the Hittites is the sons of Heth. Heth is the fourth son of Canaan the cursed son of Ham and grandson of Noah. The assertion some are making is that the canaanites were under the other tribes in some capacity. I eman to say that they allegedly served them as in the tribes of the sons of Japheth and Shem. I don't really know what relevance this has but just because the captivity caused a quicken in migrations it is not to say that the tribes of Israel had not spread earlier. We have already discussed, though inconclusively, the role of the milesians in Iberia and the western isles, both being importnat to the tin trade. It is not an easy thing to pin down clearly but I think our perceptions of hebrews as jews is somewhat skewed by the literature that came out of Babylon.

The idea in principle is that the celts, hebrews, aryans, scythians etc held something in common in spite of racial and lingual differences. I'll shut up now but that is what I am getting at if anyone missed it.  :lol:  

I had never heard of Athamas so thanks heaps Puzz.  :tu:

Outside of the Biblical narrative, there is no evidence for an historical Abraham. Nor is there any evidence of an historical Noah, as separate from Utnapishtim, Atrahasis or Ziusudra. Which would, in any case, make him either Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian but not Hebrew, as there is no evidence for the existance of anyone known as Hebrew from c.2700 BC.

Hu Gadarn

Iolo Morganwg

Can you provide evidence that the Welsh had any legends of Hu the Mighty before Iolo Morganwg, the renowned forger, came up with him while addicted to Laudanum?

Quote

I think our perceptions of hebrews as jews is somewhat skewed by the literature that came out of Babylon.

It doesn't have anything to do with Babylon. For the most part they were Hebrews up until the time of David and Solomon, and then Israelites (for the northern kingdom) and Judahites (for the southern kingdom - from where the term JEWS originated, IIRC).

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 04 June 2010 - 01:12 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#203    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 02:40 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 June 2010 - 12:24 AM, said:

Outside of the Biblical narrative, there is no evidence for an historical Abraham. Nor is there any evidence of an historical Noah, as separate from Utnapishtim, Atrahasis or Ziusudra. Which would, in any case, make him either Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian but not Hebrew, as there is no evidence for the existance of anyone known as Hebrew from c.2700 BC.

Hu Gadarn

Iolo Morganwg

Can you provide evidence that the Welsh had any legends of Hu the Mighty before Iolo Morganwg, the renowned forger, came up with him while addicted to Laudanum?

It doesn't have anything to do with Babylon. For the most part they were Hebrews up until the time of David and Solomon, and then Israelites (for the northern kingdom) and Judahites (for the southern kingdom - from where the term JEWS originated, IIRC).

cormac

Thanks for the links. I wasn't aware Iolo was addicted to laudenom but it may well explain his character.

Here is a link of my own that seems pretty rational and credible.

http://www.lugodoc.d...uids/DRUIDS.htm

The connection with celts and hebrews may be hard to prove but from a philosphical point of view the philosophy of the druids differed very little from that of Pythagoras, the Brahmins and the Taoists. Oh and don't forget the link with the Chaldeans. This is perhaps the strongest link between hebrews and the druids but it is by no means conclusive.

My point about Babylon is that it is likely that the Torah was penned during captivity by the Levites. Because of this I am inclined to think that the writers could not be open about all they wanted to say and so used code and allegory and kept things deliberately ambiguous. That oral traditions existed and seemed to spread east and west leads me to think there may have been a common source and this is where the hebrews and before them the lines of Noah come into it.

I know there is no proof as such of Noahs existence but the fact that even today we use terms like semitic and hamitic makes me think there is a strong foundation for this being used. I looked into haplogroups a little and what I recall is that the most likely type for the 'hebrews' was 'I' but tbh I didn't get a lot of it. We are talking long periods of time for tribes to intermarry between the lines and for genes to mutate or whatever it is they do.

The point is whether these commonalities that I am speaking of connect with shamanism, mysticism or astral travel. I think there is a chance they do and I find this interesting and worthy of further study. If all the geographically distant places have identical symbology then that means to me that the secret knowledge moved from place to place or that all these cultures drew fom a common source like the universal mind.

Do you see any links between the Hallstatt and anyone I have mentioned? The river network of europe could have been a good way to travel for innovative wanderers.

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#204    crystal sage

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 05:52 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 03 June 2010 - 09:33 AM, said:

I am struggling to find any sources, other than the tablets already mentioned, that date to before the 11th century CE. That is not to mean that they did not exist before that but it seems that they were not written down prior to this time. I imagine that it was because to record such things was forbade but when the very existence of the bards became threatened it became necessary to retain a permanent copy. Here is a nice link that makes some strong connection in my view. Interesting to note that the 'Ox' was the tribe of Ephraim.

http://www.biblesear...esisrael8.shtml
  I stumbled upon Hu the Mighty a while ago...
My link

Quote

E. Raymond Capt tells the story:

...HU GARDARN HYSCION (ISAACSON?) or "HU THE MIGHTY," led a party of settlers FROM ASIA MINOR TO BRITAIN. A DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM, Hu the Mighty's coming to Britain provides one of the first recorded instances of the fulfillment of the prophecy found in Genesis 28:14; that the "seed" of Abraham would spread abroad, to the four points of the compass.

The Welsh TRIADS, or "traditional chronicles," give evidence of HU THE MIGHTY COMING FROM ASIA MINOR. In the Welsh Triad 4, we read that: "The FIRST of the THREE CHIEFTAINS who established the colony was Hu the Mighty, who CAME WITH THE ORIGINAL SETTLERS. They came over the Hazy Sea from the summer country, which is called DEFROBANI, that is where Constinoblys now stands." -- Stonehenge and Druidism. Artisan Sales, Thousand Oaks, Ca. 1979. P. 75.

Who was this Hu Gardarn -- "Hu the Mighty," a descendant of Abraham? Herman L. Hoeh reveals the answer --

When and how did the Children of Israel migrate to WESTERN EUROPE? The answer is found in Cymbric or WELSH HISTORY.

His reputed accomplishments reminded me of the Yellow Emperor..
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#205    crystal sage

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 06:10 PM

Been exploring the 3rd Eye... Melatonin link.. about how Jesus was given Gold, frankincense, myrrh
My link



It appears that these Wisemen's gifts enhance the pineal gland.. the Melatonin production.

Increased Melatonin can enhance the AStral Travel ability...

Just thought I'd put it out there seeing it could be relevant to your original exploration.

Quote

The Ancient Egyptians imported large amounts of myrrh as far back as 3000 B.C. They used it to embalm the dead, as an antiseptic, and burned it for religious sacrifice.
My link



Quote


Ancient Egyptian Use of Frankincense
The Egyptian queen Hathsepia (15th century B.C.) had an inscription carved on her tomb which refers to frankincense; in fact, the ancient Egyptians spent a substantial amount of money importing frankincense from the Phoenicians because of its perceived value. In religion, it was burned in temples. Frankincense was also used in perfumes, medicines and cosmetics. It was used to fragrance clothing too.



As an incense, frankincense has been burned by many countries for religious reasons including Israel, India, China and throughout the Catholic Church. Today, frankincense is still used in many Christian, Jewish and Hindu ceremonies; it is capable of producing a calming influence, an aid to meditation and prayer.


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TWELVE OILS OF
ANCIENT SCRIPTURE

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Edited by crystal sage, 04 June 2010 - 06:33 PM.


#206    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 07:08 PM

View Postcrystal sage, on 04 June 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

I stumbled upon Hu the Mighty a while ago...
My link

His reputed accomplishments reminded me of the Yellow Emperor..
My link

Thanks Crystal Sage, I see this is a topic that has been discussed here before and you well ahead of me in terms of research. I'm sorry if it is boring for some to go over the same ground sometimes. I have also come across the hop-of-israel and can see why there is some antagonism towards them. I try to maintain healthy skepticism but just because tales make some go a little  :wacko: does not mean that there is not value in what is mentioned. Science should just try and extract the good parts and history will be what it is. I would like to see more archeology done to see if any more tales could be verified but people are so quick to claim forgery or conspiracy I can understand why it is kept discreet.

The difference between many and some is that many want definite answers while the some appreciate many possibilities. It is often the immaterial that inspires matter. This is basic cognition, so in a sense by altering states of consciousness and experiencing the ancestral and universal consciously, inspiration could be embraced. That is why I reckon these guys were decent fighters, craftsmen, bards and builders of ships and stone temples. These were the major cereal producers to Greece so when Rome identifies these people as barbarians I think they are underestimating the true nature. They had gold, spices and anything else they needed traded from the east. It is quite feasable that they could also acquire frankinsence and myrh and perhaps some concoction helped in the process of dissoulution of self. We do not necessarily even need supernatural explanations but to speculate that spiritual experience was brought on by plants is a definite possibility. They had opportunity and motive so from that point of view the criteria of evidence is being dented. If accessing superconsciousness was attainable and it helped to understand how nature worked then this could have been applied to running a kingdom. I don't know how ancient china operated but India has had the caste system which is comparable to celtic society and the early israelites clearly had this strong tribal mentality. It is all very interesting from my perspective and good research for creative writing but it is a far cry from stating that this is the way it was and this should alter the political landscape in some way. These are just stories and with no proof to consider that is how they shall remain.

P.S CS, there were so many great links in those two threads you linked, I wish I had the time to read them all.  :tu:

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#207    SlimJim22

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:43 PM

Of all the possible connections I had never read a concise enough reasoning to wet my appetite when it came to Tarot but while looking into Iolo and John Aubrey I came across this and it connects it back to Egypt.

These three mothers must be a slight alteration of the only three single-sound Egyptian hieroglyphs that were birds: ’ (alef) the eagle (Egyptian vulture), w the quail chick, and m the owl. For these spell out the Logos, the Word, AUM, the letters of which ultimately (whether Egyptians knew it or not) stand for the three parts of the self. This is the primary mantra of the East and is found in the Huna term for the High Self, au-makua—‘utterly trustworthy parental pair’—which can also be interpreted as AUM-akua, ‘AUM-being’. It is also spelt by the suffixes of the names of the three ruffians in the Masonic drama: Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum. Harold W. Percival, in Thinking and Destiny, explains that for man the Logos is pronounced IAUM: the full vowel spectrum from front to back (from smile to pucker) in a nasal tone, resolving in the “mm” of pure sweetness. The I stands for the physical body in which the self dwells, without which it tends to pull self out of the body (it has indeed pulled Tibetan Buddhism out of its body, Tibet). This suggests the name of the transcendent Dionysus, IAO, and Christ’s ‘I am the alpha and the omega’: the vowels I-A-U as bardic symbols invoke (in order) the colors black-white-red, which are the three stages of alchemy, Nigredo-Albedo-Rubedo. For I is the vowel of ‘old moon’ winter, A of the new moon or birth of the year, and U of the full moon and summer.

http://www.tarotpedi...origin_of_Tarot

I liked this bit too.

It is easy to see the relation of suits to worlds. Batons constitute the spokes of the original or first wheel: being the only suit symbol that is combustible, they are fire, the first element. Swords split the air, reminding us that the second world (that of air or life) not only divides things into pairs of Sefirot but splits each Sefirah in two as well (see second-to-last paragraph of section on the Great Name). Cups hold water and water corresponds to form, hence the world of neuter, male, and female: the world of life-forms. That it is the suit of the Grail means that it is the doer that is the object of the work, the subject of the quest. And Coins are the rounds or cycles of physical, temporal reality.

This is talking about Kabalah but the fccus is on the spear, sword, cup/cauldron and coins. These are connected to the four main tribes of Israel and the four elements but of course I doubt there is a genuine ancient artefact or text that could date this to before the common era or captivity. Kabalah, gnosticism, alchemy, shamanism.. they all descrive pretty much the same thing but I am curious as to where it originates from. If it is one place or many. I'm pretty convinced the great pyramid was the pinnacle in some way but how was this knowledge transmitted I wonder.

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#208    crystal sage

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 12:35 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 04 June 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Thanks Crystal Sage, I see this is a topic that has been discussed here before and you well ahead of me in terms of research. I'm sorry if it is boring for some to go over the same ground sometimes. I have also come across the hop-of-israel and can see why there is some antagonism towards them. I try to maintain healthy skepticism but just because tales make some go a little  :wacko: does not mean that there is not value in what is mentioned. Science should just try and extract the good parts and history will be what it is. I would like to see more archeology done to see if any more tales could be verified but people are so quick to claim forgery or conspiracy I can understand why it is kept discreet.

The difference between many and some is that many want definite answers while the some appreciate many possibilities. It is often the immaterial that inspires matter. This is basic cognition, so in a sense by altering states of consciousness and experiencing the ancestral and universal consciously, inspiration could be embraced. That is why I reckon these guys were decent fighters, craftsmen, bards and builders of ships and stone temples. These were the major cereal producers to Greece so when Rome identifies these people as barbarians I think they are underestimating the true nature. They had gold, spices and anything else they needed traded from the east. It is quite feasable that they could also acquire frankinsence and myrh and perhaps some concoction helped in the process of dissoulution of self. We do not necessarily even need supernatural explanations but to speculate that spiritual experience was brought on by plants is a definite possibility. They had opportunity and motive so from that point of view the criteria of evidence is being dented. If accessing superconsciousness was attainable and it helped to understand how nature worked then this could have been applied to running a kingdom. I don't know how ancient china operated but India has had the caste system which is comparable to celtic society and the early israelites clearly had this strong tribal mentality. It is all very interesting from my perspective and good research for creative writing but it is a far cry from stating that this is the way it was and this should alter the political landscape in some way. These are just stories and with no proof to consider that is how they shall remain.

P.S CS, there were so many great links in those two threads you linked, I wish I had the time to read them all.  :tu:


No ... I think some of these areas should be explored further on many levels to gather the various perceptions and understandings of those times. It is also interesting find some of the unexpected interactions, influences,of people from all over the world how it appears that the people of the old world were pretty adventurous,that they travelled more often and much further than we would have expected. Were consequently exposed to many cultural, spiritual, political influences,  thus perhaps explaining what we would see as many anomolous findings.
Think in terms of souvenirs.. the museums ,the collections of scholars, the wealthythe clergy. Many smart,perhaps less financial adventurous people in the old days chose to join various monastries or religious orders in order to benefit from the education they provided, the resources they had at their disposal, and the many other opportunities, such as being sent to new lands, available in relative comfort. Then there were the  political marriages or partnerships  .. the scholars, adventuruers, clergy joining merchants on their  ever widening quests for new exotic goods for profit, power, knowledge.. where people from completely different lands and cultures would bring something of their world to the new... maybe influence customs, fashion, in some cases, architecture, bring in new foods,plants, animals, knowledge.

How people in those ancient times also were fascinated in the past and collected artifacts, explored and wrote histories.  How many of the kings and queens and other people of power.. wealth and influence also had a great interest in the arts, the mind,histories, and commissioned lots of works, collected artifacts, commissioned scholars to record histories, sent them out to explore new lands, to expand knowledge  , be more aware of the opportunities that the world has to offer.
They understood  that knowledge is power and can enhance lives. Equally there were many foolish people of power who feared the new, were uncomfortable with change,many new ideas, and sought to destroy all that did not conform with their sense of self and try to force their ways on other people and lands. Often rigid misguided adherence to doctrines, religious writings, were the excuse or the weapon used, enforced by political agendas and stealth manipulations of few or many.

Edited by crystal sage, 05 June 2010 - 12:55 AM.


#209    crystal sage

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 01:06 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 04 June 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

Of all the possible connections I had never read a concise enough reasoning to wet my appetite when it came to Tarot but while looking into Iolo and John Aubrey I came across this and it connects it back to Egypt.

These three mothers must be a slight alteration of the only three single-sound Egyptian hieroglyphs that were birds: ’ (alef) the eagle (Egyptian vulture), w the quail chick, and m the owl. For these spell out the Logos, the Word, AUM, the letters of which ultimately (whether Egyptians knew it or not) stand for the three parts of the self. This is the primary mantra of the East and is found in the Huna term for the High Self, au-makua—‘utterly trustworthy parental pair’—which can also be interpreted as AUM-akua, ‘AUM-being’. It is also spelt by the suffixes of the names of the three ruffians in the Masonic drama: Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum. Harold W. Percival, in Thinking and Destiny, explains that for man the Logos is pronounced IAUM: the full vowel spectrum from front to back (from smile to pucker) in a nasal tone, resolving in the “mm” of pure sweetness. The I stands for the physical body in which the self dwells, without which it tends to pull self out of the body (it has indeed pulled Tibetan Buddhism out of its body, Tibet). This suggests the name of the transcendent Dionysus, IAO, and Christ’s ‘I am the alpha and the omega’: the vowels I-A-U as bardic symbols invoke (in order) the colors black-white-red, which are the three stages of alchemy, Nigredo-Albedo-Rubedo. For I is the vowel of ‘old moon’ winter, A of the new moon or birth of the year, and U of the full moon and summer.

http://www.tarotpedi...origin_of_Tarot

I liked this bit too.

It is easy to see the relation of suits to worlds. Batons constitute the spokes of the original or first wheel: being the only suit symbol that is combustible, they are fire, the first element. Swords split the air, reminding us that the second world (that of air or life) not only divides things into pairs of Sefirot but splits each Sefirah in two as well (see second-to-last paragraph of section on the Great Name). Cups hold water and water corresponds to form, hence the world of neuter, male, and female: the world of life-forms. That it is the suit of the Grail means that it is the doer that is the object of the work, the subject of the quest. And Coins are the rounds or cycles of physical, temporal reality.

This is talking about Kabalah but the fccus is on the spear, sword, cup/cauldron and coins. These are connected to the four main tribes of Israel and the four elements but of course I doubt there is a genuine ancient artefact or text that could date this to before the common era or captivity. Kabalah, gnosticism, alchemy, shamanism.. they all descrive pretty much the same thing but I am curious as to where it originates from. If it is one place or many. I'm pretty convinced the great pyramid was the pinnacle in some way but how was this knowledge transmitted I wonder.


I am beginning to agree that Egypt was the original Holy Land..


Quote

The Holy Family in Egypt

Introduction Egypt is the cradle of human civilization: a fact hardly contested among authoritative historians. But Egypt also enjoys a focal geopolitical position, connecting Africa, Asia, and Europe through the Mediterranean Sea. On its land, migrations of people, traditions, philosophies and religious beliefs succeeded each other for thousands of years. Evidence of this succession is still visible in the accumulation of monuments and sites attesting to a uniquely comprehensive cultural heritage. Indeed, one of the phenomena which shaped Egypt's distinctive identity, and explains its pervasive influence on the then known world, was a dynamism that accommodated and re-formulated these successive cultures into one homogenous and harmonious Egyptian canvas. Egypt is one civilization woven of many strands, threaded by successive and intertwining eras; the Pharaonic, the Graeco-Roman, the Coptic Christian, and the Islamic eras.


Because the Egyptian people are the essential product of the "harmony in diversity", "otherness" has become an integral component of their awareness, a basic constituent of their national and cultural identity. This characteristic has yielded one important result: Egypt was, and still is, the land of refuge in the widest sense of the word, a place of tolerance and dialogue for peoples, races, cultures and religions.



On this land of Egypt, the first voice proclaiming the Oneness of God rang out in the 14th century BC through Akhenaton's monotheistic creed. Moses and Jesus lived in this same land. Later, Islam entered without conflict.

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#210    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 01:39 AM

View Postcrystal sage, on 05 June 2010 - 01:06 AM, said:

The Holy Family in Egypt

Introduction Egypt is the cradle of human civilization: a fact hardly contested among authoritative historians. But Egypt also enjoys a focal geopolitical position, connecting Africa, Asia, and Europe through the Mediterranean Sea. On its land, migrations of people, traditions, philosophies and religious beliefs succeeded each other for thousands of years. Evidence of this succession is still visible in the accumulation of monuments and sites attesting to a uniquely comprehensive cultural heritage. Indeed, one of the phenomena which shaped Egypt's distinctive identity, and explains its pervasive influence on the then known world, was a dynamism that accommodated and re-formulated these successive cultures into one homogenous and harmonious Egyptian canvas. Egypt is one civilization woven of many strands, threaded by successive and intertwining eras; the Pharaonic, the Graeco-Roman, the Coptic Christian, and the Islamic eras.


Because the Egyptian people are the essential product of the "harmony in diversity", "otherness" has become an integral component of their awareness, a basic constituent of their national and cultural identity. This characteristic has yielded one important result: Egypt was, and still is, the land of refuge in the widest sense of the word, a place of tolerance and dialogue for peoples, races, cultures and religions.



On this land of Egypt, the first voice proclaiming the Oneness of God rang out in the 14th century BC through Akhenaton's monotheistic creed. Moses and Jesus lived in this same land. Later, Islam entered without conflict.

LOL Well, this is a particularly rosy view of events, but not terribly realistic. The Muslims entered as invaders after sweeping through the entire Middle East, clearing their with their swords. Christianity had already taken hold in Egypt and the early Christians resisted the Muslims as best they could, to their own decimation. Christians in Egypt suffered through multiple pogroms and purges and to this day are one of the most oppressed people in North Africa (they now comprise only about 6% of the population of Egypt).

And make no mistake, the form of monotheism that was developing under Akhenaten was of no conceivable relation to the rise of the Hebrew god Yahweh. By the time the Jews were rising into their own, Akhenaten's religion was already long dead and forgotten. It's taken generations of modern archaeology and research just to understand it as well as we do today, and we still have lots of questions. In fact, in its earliest stages of development the religion of Judea was almost certainly henotheistic, not monotheistic. Had Moses and Jesus lived in Egypt as scripture tells us, it was long after Akhenaten for both of them. And it must be remembered that while a case can certainly be made outside the Bible that Jesus was a real man at the start of the common era, there remains no tangible, extra-biblical evidence whatsoever that Moses was a real man.

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