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Pyramid Texts for Astral Travel


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#76    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:16 AM

I've read them CK (several times over the years) and I can say without any reservation whatsoever YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. And to put it into plain English: only a person as unequipped as you are, having performed sub-standard research on the subject, would use the least comprehensive translation for an ancient text or set of texts. All in an effort to make the claim that, somehow, you are right and everyone else is wrong.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#77    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:36 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 May 2010 - 12:16 AM, said:

I've read them CK (several times over the years) and I can say without any reservation whatsoever YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. And to put it into plain English: only a person as unequipped as you are, having performed sub-standard research on the subject, would use the least comprehensive translation for an ancient text or set of texts. All in an effort to make the claim that, somehow, you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Really!  

Do you care to be specific on something you believe I've misstated.  

I'm pretty good at finding the relevent poems even though google
doesn't work any more.  

The only effort is to fnd out how the pyramids were built.  I'm not
afraid of the truth even if it's as unevidenced as aliens or ramps.  

It seems a lot of people are frightened beyond words that it might
not have been ramps.  You can not escape the fact that the literal
meaning of the builder's words are at odds with orthodox interpret-
ation.   This is simple fact.

Edited by cladking, 14 May 2010 - 12:39 AM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#78    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 01:37 AM

View PostQwasz, on 13 May 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

So the mainstream theory is that everyone who dies goes to the underworld. But the Pharaoh, using his burial device and the spells on the walls, can prevent this happening to himself and can instead go into space and hang out with the Gods.. right?  Is that a fair layman's understanding of the mainstream theory?

That's a pretty good, basic summary of the situation, yes. Cladking has provided you his personal feelings on the situation, but I feel it necessary to provide some balance. Cladking and I are polar opposites. While I have no doubt he is considerably more intelligent than I in certain matters, such as mathematics, I must stress in plain English that he has never conducted proper historical research on this particular topic and what he writes is his personal speculation, not something corroborated by linguistics, philology, or other fields related to Egyptology. I am not a professional historian, but cladking happens to delve into topics I personally have been researching for many years, so I feel it necessary to strike this balance.

As an example, the Pyramid Texts make many references to the Duat, which cladking believes refers to carbonated water. In fact, there isn't even a word in ancient Egyptian that would describe carbonated water. It's certainly not Duat. This is simply the ancient Egyptian word (transliterated dwAt) for the underworld or land of the dead. In fact, there is nothing in the word Duat that would suggest water. It forms part of the word for "to worship"; linguistics have traced it back to its earliest stage as probably meaning "morning worship" (Shafer, ed 1991: 120). This word appears in funerary inscriptions before, during, and after the time of the Great Pyramid, the monument which is cladking's sole focus.

This brings up two other points worth mentioning. One, for cladking's argument for the word Duat to be true, we would have to believe that it meant "underworld" up to the time of the building of the Great Pyramid, then for some reason switched in meaning to "carbonated water," and then for the rest of pharaonic history reverted to its original meaning of "underworld." Such an argument cannot be supported, of course. And two, cladking places great emphasis on his reinterpretation of the Pyramid Texts, but it must be understood that they appear in no discernible context with the Great Pyramid. There is no doubt that some version of these Texts existed in the time of Khufu, the king who was buried in the Great Pyramid; the Texts at this time were probably kept on papyrus scrolls. But the truth is, we have no version of the Texts surviving from Dynasty 4, so we cannot form any solid theory on what they were like in the time of Khufu. They appear for the first time around 170 years later, in the reign of Unis at the end of Dynasty 5.

Now I'm getting off track and am not addressing your points very well, so back we go.

Quote

And the Astral theory is more or less saying that the spells are describing the experience the Pharaoh is going to have while he (while living) hangs out in his astral project device, right?

Yes, that is the premise behind the article in the OP of this thread. As I had hoped to demonstrate with some examples in my Post 64, the author of that article, Alison Chester-Lambert, did not present any kind of argument that might withstand even moderate scrutiny. It's bunkum.

Quote

So from there, I'd be interested in the spells themselves.  To be more precise:

1. Do the spells themselves DIRECTLY reference traditional death and the underworld?
2. Do the spells actually call out the following logical expression:  (Normal people go to the underworld but if you use these spells you can go to space)
3. If the above are not true, then mainstream view is getting it's story of the underworld from OTHER Egyptian texts, and are instead are getting #2 by inference across the culture?

So do the spells actually reference the underworld, or is that inferred?

Very intelligent questions, Qwasz. ;)

1. The spells reference the Duat many times, as I explained earlier, but rarely in any point in pharaonic history will you see writings that specifically speak of "death" and "the king" in the same breath. The Pyramid Texts do not dwell on the fact that the king has died. Rather, the spells emphasize the fact that the king will be reborn to life in the cosmos. He is resurrected from the Duat and guided by the gods and other supernatural forces to ascend into the heavens. There are, however, many writings in the Texts that leave no doubt the king has died, even if it's not directly stated. His spiritual "rescue" from the Duat is one. As another example, in a great many of the spells the king is referred to as "the Osiris Unis" or "the Osiris Pepi" (in many translations it's written as "the Osiris N," where the "N" stands for "name"). This reference to "the Osiris" specifically refers to death, because even as early as the Pyramid Texts the king, in death, is equated with the lord of the dead Osiris (Hornung 1999: 6).

2. An interesting observation on your part. The answer is, no, the spells do not tell us ordinary people go to the Duat while the king gets to shoot skyward. This has been discerned through funerary spells in the tombs of private people, most notably noblemen, where the term Duat for "underworld" or "afterlife" can be found even before Dynasty 4. In those cases the god to whom the deceased turned for guidance was usually Anubis, Wepwawet, or another, because Orisis did not yet appear on the scene. But the Pyramid Texts specifically tells us that although even the king ended up there after he had died, his deified fate was to be drawn out of the underworld and raised into the heavens. Most of the spells in the burial chamber and in many cases on the sarcophagus speak of resurrecting the king's soul from the Duat and the offering rituals that would help accomplish that, while most of the rest of the spells serve to get the king up and into the cosmos.

3. Yes, you're essentially correct. The Pyramid Texts when they first appear, late in Dynasty 5, are specifically for the benefit of the deceased king, so those among the private citizenry who have died do not have a place in the spells. The inscriptions in their tombs have enabled us to learn about their place in the underworld.

It is agreed by pretty much all scholars that the Pyramid Texts began as an oral tradition in prehistory, and originally may have been used for the benefit of private citizens who had died. Only later on do they seem to have preempted by the royals. But in studying them, I've noticed how similar some of the spells are in nature and wording to funerary inscriptions found inside private tombs that date to well before the time of Unis, or even Khufu. This is only my personal feeling, I have to state, but I believe the offering formulae, entreaties to deities, and other funerary inscriptions found within older private tombs preserve an example of how the Pyramid Texts were originally used by more folks than just the king. In other words, these funerary inscriptions in private tombs derive from the Pyramid Texts. This is my own speculation, mind you, but I believe it to be true.

I have no doubt cladking will only hate me more after reading this, but again, I feel the need to strike a balance with the things we understand based on many years of committed and diligent research at the hands of many truly brilliant people. I hope I have helped to explain some of the things professional historians can offer us. :)

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#79    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:17 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 14 May 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:


As an example, the Pyramid Texts make many references to the Duat, which cladking believes refers to carbonated water. In fact, there isn't even a word in ancient Egyptian that would describe carbonated water. It's certainly not Duat. This is simply the ancient Egyptian word (transliterated dwAt) for the underworld or land of the dead. In fact, there is nothing in the word Duat that would suggest water. It forms part of the word for "to worship"; linguistics have traced it back to its earliest stage as probably meaning "morning worship" (Shafer, ed 1991: 120). This word appears in funerary inscriptions before, during, and after the time of the Great Pyramid, the monument which is cladking's sole focus.



1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the Dȝ.t, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

Osiris arises from the earth and his spirit from the Dȝ.t.

1527c. N. was given birth with him by Dȝ.t.
1528a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

The pyramid was given birth by the Dȝ.t. The Dȝ.t (Osiris) supported
the sky.  

1530c. he descends ---- lord of the Dȝ.t-lakes.

The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of Dȝ.t.

The Dȝ.t even makes lakes! The bull of heaven lowers its horns on the
Dȝ.t lakes to accept a load of stone.  

802c. The Dȝ.t strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

The Dȝ.t  can even hit a God's hand.

unless you're careful;

He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the Dȝ.t ...


Sorry!!!

This is what the builders actually said rather than what orthodoxy
wishes they had said or thinks they meant.  

Translating this word as the underworld simply doesn't work.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#80    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:42 AM

Horus is the deity of the land of rainbows which makes him
chief of the D[].t.  

5b. I have given to him the Dȝ.t, that he may be chief therein, like Horus, chief of the Dȝ.t.

Osiris is the Lord of caverns and the Lord of the D[].t.

8d. Osiris, lord of the Dȝ.t, N.,

Osiris is the son of the earth and the sky;

8e. the beloved son of Geb, N.,
8f. son of Nut, opener of her body (womb), N.,

Nut is not devoid on Osiris daily and Osiris' passage is a cavern.

1551a. To say: This thy cavern there is the broad-hall of Osiris N.

Men tend to react the same way when they see Osiris.

1553b. They tremble who see the inundation (when) it tosses;

I'm not just picking and choosing here because the Pyramid Texts
say exact same thing over and over and over in many different ways.
It does not contradict itself.  The literal meaning is coherent!

Edited by cladking, 14 May 2010 - 02:43 AM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#81    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:43 AM

View Postcladking, on 14 May 2010 - 02:17 AM, said:

1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the Dȝ.t, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

Osiris arises from the earth and his spirit from the Dȝ.t.

1527c. N. was given birth with him by Dȝ.t.
1528a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

The pyramid was given birth by the Dȝ.t. The Dȝ.t (Osiris) supported
the sky.  

1530c. he descends ---- lord of the Dȝ.t-lakes.

The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of Dȝ.t.

The Dȝ.t even makes lakes! The bull of heaven lowers its horns on the
Dȝ.t lakes to accept a load of stone.  

802c. The Dȝ.t strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

The Dȝ.t  can even hit a God's hand.

unless you're careful;

He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the Dȝ.t ...


Sorry!!!

This is what the builders actually said rather than what orthodoxy
wishes they had said or thinks they meant.  

Translating this word as the underworld simply doesn't work.

Nothing in these excerpts even remotely supports your argument, cladking. You're digging yourself in only deeper.

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#82    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:54 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 14 May 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

Nothing in these excerpts even remotely supports your argument, cladking. You're digging yourself in only deeper.


1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the underworld, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

1527c. N. was given birth with him by underworld.
1528a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

1530c. he descends ---- lord of the underworld-lakes.

The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of the underworld.

802c. The underworld strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the underworld ...




Really!

You think "underworld" is a nice clean fit!

"Geyser" is a clean fit, you just can't believe geysers were involved.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#83    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:59 AM

View Postcladking, on 14 May 2010 - 02:54 AM, said:

1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the underworld, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

1527c. N. was given birth with him by underworld.
1528a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

1530c. he descends ---- lord of the underworld-lakes.

The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of the underworld.

802c. The underworld strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the underworld ...


When you put these in context "underworld" works even more
poorly and forces a metaphoric interpretation.  This is exactly
why a literal interpretation hasn't been considered.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#84    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:11 AM

Quote

Do you care to be specific on something you believe I've misstated.

Specific? No, as I don't care to take the time to quote every reference. To sum it up though, EVERY INTERPRETATION OF EVERY UTTERANCE OF THE PYRAMID TEXTs, AND ITS ALLEGED RELATIONSHIP TO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE GREAT PYRAMID, THAT HAS EVER COME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH. 'Nuff said.

cormac

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#85    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:47 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 May 2010 - 03:11 AM, said:

Specific? No, as I don't care to take the time to quote every reference. To sum it up though, EVERY INTERPRETATION OF EVERY UTTERANCE OF THE PYRAMID TEXTs, AND ITS ALLEGED RELATIONSHIP TO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE GREAT PYRAMID, THAT HAS EVER COME OUT OF YOUR MOUTH. 'Nuff said.


What!?! You want me to repeat it then?   :rolleyes:

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#86    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 04:45 AM

Maybe this will impress you;

http://vids.myspace....ideoID=37992519

If you watch very carefully between about 21 and 26 seconds you
can get such a good feel for what the stones looked like flying
up to and on the great pyramids.  

Swallows really do appear to fly almost as though they're being
pulled through the air and the fledglings of swallows look "heavy".  

1770a. To say: N. has ascended like a swallow;

1130a. When thou sayest, "statues", in respect to these stones,
1130b. which are like fledglings of swallows under the river-bank;


;)

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#87    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:26 PM

View Postcladking, on 14 May 2010 - 02:54 AM, said:

1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the underworld, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

1527c. N. was given birth with him by underworld.
1528a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

1530c. he descends ---- lord of the underworld-lakes.

The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of the underworld.

802c. The underworld strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the underworld ...




Really!

You think "underworld" is a nice clean fit!

"Geyser" is a clean fit, you just can't believe geysers were involved.

Um, yes, cladking, you just proved my own point. I know you are unable to see it. If you understood anything basic about ancient Egyptian religion, particularly in the Old Kingdom, you would see how obvious a fit "underworld" is. I was actually thinking about doing the same thing, but you did it for me and proved my point for me. Thanks.

It's not that I don't "believe" in geysers. My personal assumptions don't mean much when weighed against scientific evidence. The evidence is all that matters, which is why historical theories are built from evidence, and there is no evidence for geysers. You yourself have never been able to offer anything of even convincing circumstantial evidence for them. Personal speculation is not evidence.

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#88    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:24 PM

View Postcladking, on 14 May 2010 - 04:45 AM, said:

Maybe this will impress you;

http://vids.myspace....ideoID=37992519

If you watch very carefully between about 21 and 26 seconds you
can get such a good feel for what the stones looked like flying
up to and on the great pyramids.  

Swallows really do appear to fly almost as though they're being
pulled through the air and the fledglings of swallows look "heavy".

I enjoy birds, and that's a fun video, but now you're using someone's backyard video to try to sustain your argument. Or the times you've posted photos of geysers that are not even in Egypt. Do you see the problems inherent in this tactic? You pull random pics and videos but never information scientifically and specifically related to the geology of Egypt. This is not how you defend a position. Would you try to do the same thing in a peer-review environment?

Quote

1770a. To say: N. has ascended like a swallow;

1130a. When thou sayest, "statues", in respect to these stones,
1130b. which are like fledglings of swallows under the river-bank;

And when it comes to the Pyramid Texts, you follow much the same tactic. Pulling random samples without any observance to their own context serves to make your case only more disjointed and suspicious.

For example, with 1770a (from Utterance 626), the full line is: "To say: N. has ascended like a swallow; N. has alighted like a falcon." Why did you leave off the bit about the falcon? Because it didn't fit with your swallow example? You can't chop a line in half and pretend only part of it is relevant. More importantly, however, "N" stands for the king, and his ascension to heaven is likened to the flight of a swallow. This has nothing to do with stones being raised in construction. (Full page here.)

With 1130a and 1330b (from Utterance 510) you've picked one word out of a long spell (1128a-1148c) as though "swallow" is the only thing of notable reference here. If you note the many references to "form" and "statues," this spell is one of numerous about the funerary statues of the king, their anointing, and the offerings to them. The phrase "...in respect to these stones" is in reference to the statues, not to blocks of limestone masonry. And the opening line (1128a) clearly again states "N," in place of the king's name, telling us this whole spell concerns the king. This, too, has nothing to do with stones being raised in construction. (Full page here.)

You have to observe context. One word out of an entire spell cannot be used to reinterpret the whole meaning. This is not how the Pyramid Texts were meant to be understood.

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#89    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:30 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 14 May 2010 - 02:26 PM, said:

Um, yes, cladking, you just proved my own point. I know you are unable to see it. If you understood anything basic about ancient Egyptian religion, particularly in the Old Kingdom, you would see how obvious a fit "underworld" is. I was actually thinking about doing the same thing, but you did it for me and proved my point for me. Thanks.

It's not that I don't "believe" in geysers. My personal assumptions don't mean much when weighed against scientific evidence. The evidence is all that matters, which is why historical theories are built from evidence, and there is no evidence for geysers. You yourself have never been able to offer anything of even convincing circumstantial evidence for them. Personal speculation is not evidence.


I did warn you that in context these look even less like the
orthodox interopretation might be right. It wasn't even a trap.

802a. Thou hast voyaged over the Winding Watercourse in the north of Nut
802b. as a star, which ferries over the ocean, which is under the body of Nut.
802c. The Dȝ.t strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#90    cladking

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:45 PM

Look at post #182 here  near the top of the page:

http://www.unexplain...c=146503&st=180

This puts them into context.  If you try to put "underworld"
in place of D[].t many become nonsensical.  It's the same
thing with yeast gas and violent inundation that causes abun-
dance.  

The misinterpretation of the Eye of Horus and the obvious
mistranslation of these three key words are why the literal
meaning hasn't been considered.  It's easy to see how yeast
gas was missed but not so easy with the others.  

Of course you can still claim it's just coincidence that
water fits but the ground on which you stand keeps getting
shakier.








edited to add most of linked post;

#506;

...1101a. Further, to say: Men and gods, your arms under me,
1101b. while you raise me and lift me up to heaven,
1101c. as the arms of Shu (were) under the sky as he lifted her up--
1101d. to heaven, to heaven, to the great seat, among the gods!

This isn't the duat but note that men and Gods are able to access heaven.

1527a. Heaven conceived him: Dw[].t gave him birth;
152 7b. N. was conceived with him by heaven;
1527c. N. was given birth with him by D[].t.
152 8a. Thou supported the sky on thy right side, having life;

1973c. at the wailing of these two spirits
1973d. [for this Great One who comes forth] from the D[].t.

1986b. [for this spirit, who ascends from] the D[].t, (even) Osiris N. who ascends from Geb.

802a. Thou hast voyaged over the Winding Watercourse in the north of Nut
802b. as a star, which ferries over the ocean, which is under the body of Nut.
802c. The D[].t strikes (takes) thy hand, towards the place of Śȝḥ,

1432a. His boat is brought to him by the d‘m-sceptres of the imperishable stars.
1432b. The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of D[].t.

882c. who traverses the sky with Śȝḥ, who voyages over the D[].t with Osiris.

1014a. The earth speaks: "The portal of the D[].t (var. ȝkr) is open."

331a. Disown not N., O thou who art in the D[].t; for thou knowest him and he knows thee.
331b. Disown not N., O thou who art in the D[].t; for he knows thee.
331c. To thee it is said: "The damaged."
332a. Disown not N., O bull of heaven; for thou knowest him and he knows thee.
332b. Disown not N., O bull of heaven; for he knows thee.

1676c + 1 (N. VII 709 + 42). He ferried over the lake; h[e] avoided the D[].t

306a. N. rests from life in the West, the dwellers in the D[].t following him.
306b. (Then) N. rises renewed in the East,


Duat just doesn't seem to work in all these usages. When the geysers failed
they still flowed under the ground. Where D[].t was the entire thing from the
primeval waters to the Marsh of reeds the "duat" is what was left after the CO2
disappeared; just a bunch of dead Gods under the ground.

Utterance 670.

1972. To say: The double doors of heaven are open; the double doors of the bows are open.
1973a. The gods in Buto were filled with compassion, when they came to Osiris N.,1973b. [at the voice of we] eping of Isis and at the lamentation of Nephthys,
1973c. at the wailing of these two spirits
1973d. [for this Great One who comes forth] from the D[].t.

Osiris is coming forth from the D[].t.

1974a. The Souls of Buto dance for thee;

These are people reacting to Osiris coming from the D[].t.

1974b. they beat their flesh for thee; they hit their arms for thee;
1974c. they dishevel their hair for thee;
1974d. they smite their legs for thee.
1975a. They say to thee, Osiris N., "thou art gone, thou art come;
1975b. thou art asleep, [thou art awake]; thou art [dead (lit. thou landest)], thou art alive.


If D[].t doesn't fit the definition for "duat" then maybe it's because it
hadn't evolved to that meaning yet.


151a. Śȝḥ is enveloped by the D[].t, pure and living, in the horizon;
151b. So this is enveloped by the D[].t, pure and living, in the horizon;
151c. N. is enveloped by the D[].t, pure and living, in the horizon.
151d. He is content because of them; he is cool because of them,
151e. in the arms of his father, in the arms of Atum.

Over and over it says the horizon is the land up out of the valley. It's
where the "crowns in the water springs in the south of Libya" are.

The Gods are said to be cool water. They are said to be effervescent.
They are said to be water like wine. The D[].t is that water. When the
fizz went out of it all that was left is the duat.

Edited by cladking, 14 May 2010 - 03:55 PM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.




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