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Gobekli Tepe Shows Constellations


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#31    Abramelin

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 10:05 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 May 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

Abramelin, I think you could be quite right and the shape is certainly meaningful.

I just found the resemblence between these Menorcan megaliths and the Gobekli Tepe T-shaped standing stones a nice coincidence, but I don't think there is any connection between them. They differ like 8000 (?) years in age.


#32    DieChecker

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 07:43 PM

View Postastrios, on 22 May 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

The strictly modern depiction of Tiamat as a multi-headed dragon was popularized in the 1970s as a fixture of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game inspired by earlier sources [who?] associating Tiamat with later mythological characters, such as Lotan.
I'm sure that Gygax got some idea of the multiheaded dragon from somewhere. Perhaps from the Hydra?
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View PostAbramelin, on 28 May 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:

I think I know where these Gobekli Tepers went to: they went on a looooong holiday in the western Mediterranean (Menorca):
Perhaps they were so tired from building stuff in stone, that their fresh, hunter gatherer neighbors moved right in and killed them all?

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#33    jules99

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 07:52 PM

Just that the premise that Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter gatherers doesnt exactly sit right. Surely building something this big requires a lot of free time, time that you would think should be spent hunting and looking for food. Maybe we just havent found signs of settlement and permanence yet.


#34    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 11:29 AM

View Postjules99, on 31 May 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just that the premise that Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter gatherers doesnt exactly sit right. Surely building something this big requires a lot of free time, time that you would think should be spent hunting and looking for food. Maybe we just havent found signs of settlement and permanence yet.
I agree jules, it doesn't sit right with me and from the outset argued that there could be settlements they haven't found yet.

Apparently Catal Huyuk has signs of astronomy being studied there.

Edit to add: Just did a check on it and found something else of interest. Catal Huyuk sits right next to extint twin volcanoes, called Mount Hasan, which I then Googled:

Mount Hasan (Turkish: Hasan Dağı) is an inactive stratovolcano in Aksaray province, Turkey. With an altitude of 3,253 m (10,672 ft.), it ranks as the second highest mountain of central Anatolia. A caldera 4-5 kilometres wide formed near the current summit around 7500 BC, in an eruption recorded in Neolithic paintings.

The ancient settlement of Çatalhöyük collected obsidian from the area of Hasan Dağ, which they probably traded with other settlements for luxury goods. Obsidian mirrors and flakes have also been found. The importance of Hasan Dağ to the people of Çatalhöyük may be shown by a wall painting, sometimes called the "first landscape" by art historians, which some believe is a depiction of Hasan Dağ towering over the settlement's houses.

Approximately six hours walk is required to climb to the top of the mountain, as it is not possible to drive up. At the summit, one is faced with a fabulous view over the central Anatolian plateau, including the distant Cappadocia.


I'm always looking for early volcano Gods, like the creator Gods Hephaestus and Ptah.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 June 2010 - 11:34 AM.

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#35    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 01:48 PM

This is essential reading I think, showing a comparison of the idea of the volcanic God starting at Mount Hasan combined with an equal idea appearing in Ethiopia, another country with volcanic activity around the same time, 7500BC, Etna erupted not long after too. The Benben stone and the shape of the pyramids is all volcanic related, no volcaoes in Egypt, they say this came from elsewhere. Since the Egyptians themselves say their Gods came in from Ethiopia it remains to be known if it was Ethiopia or Turkey that first worshipped a volcano God. I see a crossover in Jewish religion where to me Yahweh sounds like a volcano God and I think Ptah and Hephaestus are similars. Since Ethiopians are so entwined into Judaism and the Bible and they were converted it seems to me the cult may have been taken into Ethiopia and then crossed up into Egypt.

http://www.margaretm...com/benben.html

It's a bit off topic I know but gives a really good interpretation of how this subject stands and to me it is part of the overall story if Catal Huyuk can be shown to have an association with all 3, volcano God, the Bull and astronomy, that might lead us back to Gobekli Tepe.

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#36    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 01:58 PM

Some scholars suggest that the biblical descriptions indicate that Mt. Sinai was a volcanic mountain.
  
  Exodus 19:18-21: "Mt. Sinai was entirely wrapped in smoke, because Yahweh had descended on it in the form of fire. The smoke rose like smoke from a furnace and the whole mountain shook violently. Louder and louder grew the trumpeting. Moses spoke and God answered him in the thunder. Yahweh descended on Mt. Sinai, on the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain; and Moses went up."(20)  
  
  Exodus 20:18: "Seeing the thunder pealing, the lightning flashing, the trumpet blasting and the mountain smoking, the people were all terrified and kept their distance."(21)
  
  Judges 5:5: "The mountains melted before Yahweh of Sinai, before Yahweh, god of Israel."(22)
  
In the 1800s English geographer Charles Beke published a pamphlet titled Mount Sinai a Volcano. Beke searched the Sinai and found no volcanic mountains. Beke discovered enormous ash and lava beds in Northwest Arabia. The black top of Jebel el Lawz in the land called Midian in Moses' day shows that it was once volcanic.
  
A number of scholars, including Archibald H. Sayce, Abraham S. Yahuda, Sir E.A.W. Budge, Cyrus H. Gordon, and Umberto Cassuto demonstrated clear parallels between the religion of Moses and that of dynastic Egypt.


This is saying that even in Mt Sinai an ancient volcano was thought to have once been. Volcanoes everywhere must have influenced many thoughts I'd think. I think all this volcanic activity around 7000-6000BC would have caused many cataclysms that might have been the basis of the religions and myths. It seems all very developed on it's arrival into cultures.

  http://www.margaretm...com/benben.html

In case anyone missed this part:
[i]Ancient literature may offer accounts of attempts to synthesize such an oracular system. For instance, accounts speak of the ancient Greek Mysteries, for which the cauldron of the goddess Ceres (identified with the Egyptian Isis and the Greek goddess Demeter) was ritually prepared by nine divinely inspired maidens who volatized the brew with their breath. The maidens represented the nine muses, the divinely inspired daughters of Zeus of Greek mythology worshipped all over ancient Greece.

  
The geographer Strabo associated the Druidesses with the priestesses of Dionysos (Roman: Bacchus). The Celtic myth of the Cauldron of Gerridwen speaks of an elixir that afforded oracular speech. According to Llyfr Taliesin's poem titled The Spoils of Annwn, the elixir was heated or vaporized by the breath of nine maidens (who represented the nine muses).

I'll be adding that into the Celtic Influence In Greece topic to think about.

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#37    Abramelin

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:49 PM

View Postjules99, on 31 May 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just that the premise that Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter gatherers doesnt exactly sit right. Surely building something this big requires a lot of free time, time that you would think should be spent hunting and looking for food. Maybe we just havent found signs of settlement and permanence yet.


I think many people have the wrong idea about the motives, intelligence, and capabilities of hunter-gatherers.

Who says they built Gobekli Tepe in one go? They may have returned to the site a zillion times to complete it, every time the hunting or gathering season was over.


#38    jules99

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:18 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 June 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

I think many people have the wrong idea about the motives, intelligence, and capabilities of hunter-gatherers.

Who says they built Gobekli Tepe in one go? They may have returned to the site a zillion times to complete it, every time the hunting or gathering season was over.
Hi Abramelin;
I didnt have any desire to cast negative aspersions on the abilities of hunter gatherers.
Sure a site can theoretically be added to over time, however initially some form of plan must have existed. For any work to be completed at all there must have been some form of social or political organisation within the community. At least a division of labour to provide food while others performed stonework.
For any plan to remain valid it has to have a reasonable timeframe for completion, otherwise the point would be lost.
I could see individual structures being completed within a season, then the complex being added to over the years, however I still think it would be easier to justify Gobekli Tepe's existence if the builders were settled locals.


#39    SlimJim22

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:27 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 01 June 2010 - 01:48 PM, said:

This is essential reading I think, showing a comparison of the idea of the volcanic God starting at Mount Hasan combined with an equal idea appearing in Ethiopia, another country with volcanic activity around the same time, 7500BC, Etna erupted not long after too. The Benben stone and the shape of the pyramids is all volcanic related, no volcaoes in Egypt, they say this came from elsewhere. Since the Egyptians themselves say their Gods came in from Ethiopia it remains to be known if it was Ethiopia or Turkey that first worshipped a volcano God. I see a crossover in Jewish religion where to me Yahweh sounds like a volcano God and I think Ptah and Hephaestus are similars. Since Ethiopians are so entwined into Judaism and the Bible and they were converted it seems to me the cult may have been taken into Ethiopia and then crossed up into Egypt.

http://www.margaretm...com/benben.html

It's a bit off topic I know but gives a really good interpretation of how this subject stands and to me it is part of the overall story if Catal Huyuk can be shown to have an association with all 3, volcano God, the Bull and astronomy, that might lead us back to Gobekli Tepe.

That is a cracking link Puzz. Good to have you back. I really like the idea of obelisks being cut out of lava flows and this corresponding to pyramid text 527. It does throw up a lot of interesting possibilities connecting with fire, omphalos and primal mound. I may even have to concede P'tah as Hephaestus soon  ;)

I also liked this excerpt as it made me think of Chladeans and Caledonia.

Modern research has shown that chemicals naturally occurring in the human brain can be manipulated to produce extraordinary experiences similar to those testified to by participants in the Mystery rites. The famous Roman orator and philosopher Cicero (106-43 BC) was such an initiate.(13) As we consider the ancient mystical practices, we can keep in mind that the root word for cauldron is "caldera," meaning a volcanic crater.

The stuff about the oracle at Delphi made me think about Cygnus and them cosmic rays. I wonder if the noxious vapours have any connection to cosmic rays.

As for Gobeleki tepe, I agree with Abe. It is ideally located as a central meeting spot for surrounding tribes. They could have shared religious festivals or funerary rites and this is why it appears to be such a vast complex. Not sure if watching the skies was the primary purpose of the site but the carvings make it fairly clear that it was going on.

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#40    SlimJim22

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 09:13 PM

It's all turning up 27's today for some reason.

The first hypothetical sanctuary on top of the Göbekli Tepe gave way to at least nineteen stone pillar temples all over the hill, only a few excavated so far by Klaus Schmidt and his teams, among them the temples called A and B and C and D, all belonging to the early phase, beginning some 11,600 years ago.

Follows a short interpretation of these temples.

Temple A may be seen as the temple of rain - thanking for rain in the mild winter, imploring rain in the hot and dry summer (the climate in the flanky hills of the fertile crescent was rather special). The diagonal web of snakes on the upper panel of pillar 1, ascending and descending, has the meaning of praying for rain and imploring rain via the smoke of sacrificial fires, and then of rain rewarding the prayers and sacrifices, and the same holds for the one ascending snake and the three descending snakes on the southern narrow face of pillar 1, while the ram below the web of snakes may represent a sacrifice to the sky god who has the power to make it rain (the slab at the base of pillar 1 has the size of a ram, so a ram could have been sacrificed on this slab, at the base of pillar 1 in temple A).

Temple B is a calendar sanctuary that parallels the solar year to the life and career of a supreme ruler  goebekli.GIF

Temple C is the temple of the boar as protector of the western entrances to and eastern exits from the Underworld that were passed by moon and sun, probably by the moon duck and the sun crane. The grim dog-like animal guarding the ground, a sculpted part of the shaft of pillar 27 and marvel of early stone masonry (appearing also on many other pillars in the simpler form of reliefs), may have hindered unworthy souls from leaving the Underworld. Only worthy souls, especially the souls of worthy former supreme rulers were allowed to return and climb the sky toward a heavenly abode. When a ruler died, his soul entered the Underworld, was guided through the subterranean labyrinth by the fox, returned, and climbed the sky toward a heavenly abode. The guard of the ground, hindering unworthy souls from returning, may have been RAG KAL DhAG NOS, able DhAG minded NOS (helper of the) queen RAG of the Underworld KAL, and this name might have become Requalivahanus much later, a minor god who warded off evil ghosts. The boar could have been SA TYR DhAG NOS, able DhAG minded NOS (helper of) the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR from above SA, and this helper and protector of the western entrances to and eastern exits from the Underworld could have become Satuvahanus. The queen of the Underworld was PIR GID, also known as the one who has the say  )OG or LOG, and as KAL GID pSAI Calypso, while the one who overcame from above in the double sense of rule and give was AAR RAA NOS.


Temple D, a Neolithic zoo according to Klaus Schmidt, may have been the Temple of Creation - the pillars show many animals, the huge central pillar may represent the triple goddess and her triple hero, the inscription on the central pillar of the triple goddess reading  )OG BIR AC CA  may even anticipate Genesis 1:1. Pillar 33 of temple D is highly interesting, the snakes on the wide faces, originally seen as pond by Klaus Schmidt, may symbolize the rivers Euphrates and Tigris, while the standing H on the narrow face represents PIR GID as the one who has the say, PIR GID on New Year’s Eve, night of the fire archers, while the fire arrows are represented as up shooting arrow-heads on the sides of the standing H. The fire archers would have been called PIR RYT wherefrom Euphrates, and her arrows were metaphorical fingers of light and luck DIG LIC wherefrom Tigris (consider the ancient and the local names of these rivers). The spiders of six and eight legs may hint at the division of the land around the Göbekli Tepe according to the number 6 and the number 4 doubled in 8 (as explained above).

Archaeological evidence for the above fable might perhaps be found in the plain of Adjaman, hypothetical ancient form AD DA MAN, on the Karacadag, hypothetical abode of AAR RAA NOS, and in a cave on the Euphrates in northern Syria, cave of PIR GID alias KAL GID pSAI Calypso.


Just wondering what y'all thought about some of these suggestions.

http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm

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#41    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:45 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 02 June 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:

It's all turning up 27's today for some reason.

The first hypothetical sanctuary on top of the Göbekli Tepe gave way to at least nineteen stone pillar temples all over the hill, only a few excavated so far by Klaus Schmidt and his teams, among them the temples called A and B and C and D, all belonging to the early phase, beginning some 11,600 years ago.

Follows a short interpretation of these temples.

Temple A may be seen as the temple of rain - thanking for rain in the mild winter, imploring rain in the hot and dry summer (the climate in the flanky hills of the fertile crescent was rather special). The diagonal web of snakes on the upper panel of pillar 1, ascending and descending, has the meaning of praying for rain and imploring rain via the smoke of sacrificial fires, and then of rain rewarding the prayers and sacrifices, and the same holds for the one ascending snake and the three descending snakes on the southern narrow face of pillar 1, while the ram below the web of snakes may represent a sacrifice to the sky god who has the power to make it rain (the slab at the base of pillar 1 has the size of a ram, so a ram could have been sacrificed on this slab, at the base of pillar 1 in temple A).

Temple B is a calendar sanctuary that parallels the solar year to the life and career of a supreme ruler  goebekli.GIF

Temple C is the temple of the boar as protector of the western entrances to and eastern exits from the Underworld that were passed by moon and sun, probably by the moon duck and the sun crane. The grim dog-like animal guarding the ground, a sculpted part of the shaft of pillar 27 and marvel of early stone masonry (appearing also on many other pillars in the simpler form of reliefs), may have hindered unworthy souls from leaving the Underworld. Only worthy souls, especially the souls of worthy former supreme rulers were allowed to return and climb the sky toward a heavenly abode. When a ruler died, his soul entered the Underworld, was guided through the subterranean labyrinth by the fox, returned, and climbed the sky toward a heavenly abode. The guard of the ground, hindering unworthy souls from returning, may have been RAG KAL DhAG NOS, able DhAG minded NOS (helper of the) queen RAG of the Underworld KAL, and this name might have become Requalivahanus much later, a minor god who warded off evil ghosts. The boar could have been SA TYR DhAG NOS, able DhAG minded NOS (helper of) the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR from above SA, and this helper and protector of the western entrances to and eastern exits from the Underworld could have become Satuvahanus. The queen of the Underworld was PIR GID, also known as the one who has the say  )OG or LOG, and as KAL GID pSAI Calypso, while the one who overcame from above in the double sense of rule and give was AAR RAA NOS.


Temple D, a Neolithic zoo according to Klaus Schmidt, may have been the Temple of Creation - the pillars show many animals, the huge central pillar may represent the triple goddess and her triple hero, the inscription on the central pillar of the triple goddess reading  )OG BIR AC CA  may even anticipate Genesis 1:1. Pillar 33 of temple D is highly interesting, the snakes on the wide faces, originally seen as pond by Klaus Schmidt, may symbolize the rivers Euphrates and Tigris, while the standing H on the narrow face represents PIR GID as the one who has the say, PIR GID on New Year’s Eve, night of the fire archers, while the fire arrows are represented as up shooting arrow-heads on the sides of the standing H. The fire archers would have been called PIR RYT wherefrom Euphrates, and her arrows were metaphorical fingers of light and luck DIG LIC wherefrom Tigris (consider the ancient and the local names of these rivers). The spiders of six and eight legs may hint at the division of the land around the Göbekli Tepe according to the number 6 and the number 4 doubled in 8 (as explained above).

Archaeological evidence for the above fable might perhaps be found in the plain of Adjaman, hypothetical ancient form AD DA MAN, on the Karacadag, hypothetical abode of AAR RAA NOS, and in a cave on the Euphrates in northern Syria, cave of PIR GID alias KAL GID pSAI Calypso.


Just wondering what y'all thought about some of these suggestions.

http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux3.htm
I'd be interested in learning more about Temple B.  :yes:

On funerary rites, what I see is an abundance of vultures, which points to a society that may have left their dead out to be eaten by vultures, the first flying reborn souls of a sort as seen in later religions of this sort of thing.
It leads me to ask if funerary rites would have been performed at all if no funerals were conducted. Maybe an abundance of skeletons will show up that were discarded after being left out, like in Malta in the large temple, 8000 body remains have been found. It seems to me these are skeletons or bodies that have been put there rather than proper burials (after being eaten by vultures and even dogs). Gruesome I know but this is what was going down if you think about it. That kind of discarding of bodies soon became an abomination and a disgrace to have your body left out like that.

Diogenes of Sinope is a real character and the above reminded me of his philosophy, check him out http://en.wikipedia....genes_of_Sinope
There are numerous accounts of Diogenes' death. He is alleged variously to have held his breath;[26] to have become ill from eating raw octopus;[27] or to have suffered an infected dog bite.[28] When asked how he wished to be buried, he left instructions to be thrown outside the city wall so wild animals could feast on his body. When asked if he minded this, he said, "Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!" When asked how he could use the stick since he would lack awareness, he replied "If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?"[29] At the end, Diogenes made fun of people's excessive concern with the "proper" treatment of the dead. The Corinthians erected to his memory a pillar on which rested a dog of Parian marble.


I'd be inclined to see it as a place that maybe even women gathered and lived and started worship as well as looked at the stars and kept records being on the one place rather than moving around, which I think is the only way you could start to study the stars, you wouldn't be able to be moving around for hundreds of km's keeping track of them. Signs of this, what are we looking for? There is nothing to find, they were still gatherers and hunters, they didn't have much in the way of pottery and such but yet only 500 years later, not much really when you think about it, we have Nevali Cori where so much more can be found, alot like Gobekli but more society advanced, Gobekli to me has to be a prototype of this, more than a temple structure and probably more than an observatory.

The whole structure could be based on women's ideas, if the men were off hunting it would leave the women who were left grouped to find more spiritual things to concentrate on, starting to ask for help to Gods when things went wrong with their children or starting cultic rites, it just seems more of a woman thing to me, mother goddesses, witches, followers of Bacchus and Demeter, all women groups who really keep it all alive, men are too busy at war fighting and hunting...they probably even carved the pictures, I'm not women's libbing or anything it just seems to make logical sense that this might have been what would have occurred, women used to live in groups as recorded by Herodotus and others, bringing up the children as a whole with no men and the children not knowing their fathers, I believe Etruscan society echoed these ancient practices. Temples held women who lived within them, priestesses, women of oracles, much older than priests I think. All the most ancient of ancient knowledge is often held by women such as The Muses, the anicent Egyptian Goddesses of Bat and Neith are pre-dynastic, women have a very important role in religion, Inanna is probably the oldest proper worshipped Goddess.

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#42    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:45 AM

I really like he idea of a female priestly class or something. It may not be exclusive but it would make sense that they undertook large amounts of ritual customs becasue, as you say the men would be off hunting or fighting. Although, it some docs on native tribes it is the wome who work all day and the men lie about smoking grass all day. Lazy gits!

Here are some really good links but some are a bit indepth.

http://www.mnhn.fr/m...0613_Peters.pdf

http://www.bibliotec...p_chaman_08.htm

http://realhistoryww...olia_Turkey.htm

http://www.cais-soas...y_practices.htm

http://books.google....natolia&f=false

It seems like reductions in vulture populations has caused havoc with funerary rites in the East. The possibility of sky burial as being one use of Gobeleki Tepe is fascinating. I can imagine bodies being piled up atop the 'T' shaped structures and hundreds of vultures gathering. It may seem gross to us but I bet to the ancients it was seen as a privilige. I wonder what they did with the skeletons. In druidism it was customary to bury corpses for ten years then dig them up and have bone fires at festivals. It is possible that a similar thing was going on that far back and then the ashes would be scattered to the four winds or placed in a sacred river.

I forgot to mention before how much I liked your point about leopard skins being a representation of lava spots. I had thought of cow spots as related to the Milky way and stars but the leopard skin had baffled me somewhat. Always good to consider all the alternatives and that certainly helped.

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#43    questionmark

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 08:10 PM

Wow...I am shocked.... now there is a megalithic temple that shows constellations!

Well, as general info, the keepers of the time after (commonly called priests) started out as keepers of time, which was much more important for people living in the stone age than the life after. They started the mumbo-jumbo once people were getting wise on their "secrets".

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