11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Alewyn, on 06 February 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

I would, nevertheless, question your assumption that your surname can be linked to “od”. To me this sounds highly unlikely.

It sounds unlikely to you because the wrong translation got stuck in your mind.

Edited by Otharus, 06 February 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRŔD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

"Goeie ouwe Od trad tot'r binnen".

I think a couple of guys (in heaven or hell) or laughing their asses off, lol'.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

But many of the 'famous characters' in these "phantastic historiographies" show up in the OLB.

It's interesting the "Ocko Scharlensis" may very well have been nothing but a creation by the writer A.C. van Stavoren (1597), and then shows up right at the beginning of the OLB: "Okke, my son".

And according to a 19th century source there appears to have been a famous Frisian 'druid' called "Occo".

.

Just show me, where I can find Fositeland, Stavo and the Red CLiff in the OLB.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't understand what you mean.


It's still not clear how old the paper is.

But even if it would be 19th C. paper, the content can still be older.

The paper dates ca. 1850. The contents date ca. 1854. The original text has been written between 1830 and 1854. No doubt.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

I agree with Otharus. This item has been discussed over and over again and the conclusion was simple: od < hod = rod.Ottema must have felt ashamed about it and looked for an onaother explanation (Lat. odium) like he did not admit, that Jessos = Jezus Christus.

Edited by Knul, 07 February 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[The Puzzler]

trade=trád since trád also equated to 'to drive - to hunt'= take a course/path

EnglishWikipedia has articles on:
Trade
[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade


wraldas od trád to ra binna

I do not see TO RA, I see TORA (one word - there's not much of a gap, it could be to ra but also it could be tora.

Faroese Pronunciation [ˈtoːra]
Noun tora f.

1.thunder
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tora

How about this literal interpretation?

WRALDAS OD TRÁD TORA BINNA

'wraldas sharp point/rod drove a path of thunder inside'

[Knul]

For those interested in the typography of the OLB I added a chapter on this subject to my website: http://rodinbook.nl/olbtypografie.html.

[The Puzzler]

After that part you have:

Od trâd to-ra binna: aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen. (Page6 OLBTresoar)

It's odd how the word for daughter is togathera - why does that mean daughter?

Here's daughter again:  wiva aend toghatera (Page5 OLBTresoar)
Here's another one: 11. Willath jvw svna fon hjara toghaterum,

Is this an ancient term for daughter?

The closest word I can think of is together. - togadera-togathera-toghatera

to-gad-er-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adv.: nhd. zusammen; ne. together; Vw.: s.
-bra-ng-a, -drÆ-v-a, -kÐ-th-a, ku-m-a, -sÆ-a, -sit-t-a, -skrÆ-v-a, -we-s-a; Hw.: s. gad-er;
vgl. ae. tÅgÏdre; E.: s. to (1), gad-er; W.: nfries. togearre, Adv., zusammen; L.: Hh
33b

Seems like it is a word that just means 'a match' for the svna (sons). - a partner/a together?



EtymologyThe word daughter comes from the Old English dohtor, from Proto-Germanic *dochter, related to Dutch dochter and German Tochter, from Proto-Indo-European *dhugheter, shared by Sanskrit duhitar and Greek θυγάτηρ (thugatēr),[2] Mycenaean Greek tu-ka-te, written in Linear B syllabic script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter

If I twist my tongue and make that PIE dh into a t sound (Gk has th) you get - tu-gheter - which is the same type word as what the OLB has...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think they break down like this:

tu-ka-te (Linear B )
thu-ga-ter (Gk)
to-ga-thera(OLB)
to-ga-dera (Frisian)
to-ge-ther (English)

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 February 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 07 February 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Just show me, where I can find Fositeland, Stavo and the Red CLiff in the OLB.

I have said many times they combined Greek, Latin and Frisian myths and legends, spiced up with Viking history. Do you seriously think one can make up a story using every character, every 'god', every location and every adventure that show up in all of thses sources? It would have become a tome you could't have held in your hands.

Yesterday I showed you a Foste on Ameland, I showed you an Occo (a bard, druid, whatever), and so on. I showed you a Tutia the Vestal Virgin (OLB Burghtmaid or VestE Virgin) and so on.

You have to be creative to create a falsification: you do not copy to the letter from the sources you use. If you do then in that case you better end your 'falsification' with a list of 'references', lol.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 07 February 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

After that part you have:

Od trâd to-ra binna: aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen. (Page6 OLBTresoar)

It's odd how the word for daughter is togathera - why does that mean daughter?

Here's daughter again:  wiva aend toghatera (Page5 OLBTresoar)
Here's another one: 11. Willath jvw svna fon hjara toghaterum,

Is this an ancient term for daughter?

The closest word I can think of is together. - togadera-togathera-toghatera

to-gad-er-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adv.: nhd. zusammen; ne. together; Vw.: s.
-bra-ng-a, -drÆ-v-a, -kÐ-th-a, ku-m-a, -sÆ-a, -sit-t-a, -skrÆ-v-a, -we-s-a; Hw.: s. gad-er;
vgl. ae. tÅgÏdre; E.: s. to (1), gad-er; W.: nfries. togearre, Adv., zusammen; L.: Hh
33b

Seems like it is a word that just means 'a match' for the svna (sons). - a partner/a together?



EtymologyThe word daughter comes from the Old English dohtor, from Proto-Germanic *dochter, related to Dutch dochter and German Tochter, from Proto-Indo-European *dhugheter, shared by Sanskrit duhitar and Greek θυγάτηρ (thugatēr),[2] Mycenaean Greek tu-ka-te, written in Linear B syllabic script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter

If I twist my tongue and make that PIE dh into a t sound (Gk has th) you get - tu-gheter - which is the same type word as what the OLB has...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think they break down like this:

tu-ka-te (Linear B )
thu-ga-ter (Gk)
to-ga-thera(OLB)
to-ga-dera (Frisian)
to-ge-ther (English)

A -t- at the beginning or in the middle or a word often changes into a -d- and visa versa; you won't have to twist your tongue.

We say "tocht", you say "draft", we say "duizend", you say "thousand", we say "deur", the Germans say "Tür", and so on.

Same with -g- (the gutteral consonant like in the Scottish Loch Ness) to - h- and visa versa (think of how Anglo-Saxons pronounce "Mexico" and how a Mexican pronounces it).

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2012 - 07:29 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 07 February 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

trade=trád since trád also equated to 'to drive - to hunt'= take a course/path

EnglishWikipedia has articles on:
Trade
[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade


wraldas od trád to ra binna

I do not see TO RA, I see TORA (one word - there's not much of a gap, it could be to ra but also it could be tora.

Faroese Pronunciation [ˈtoːra]
Noun tora f.

1.thunder
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tora

How about this literal interpretation?

WRALDAS OD TRÁD TORA BINNA

'wraldas sharp point/rod drove a path of thunder inside'

"Trad" is simply past tense of "treden" (to tread).

"ra" in "to ra" is a dative.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

"Trad" is simply past tense of "treden" (to tread).

"ra" in "to ra" is a dative.

1. I know, what do you think I said here: Trade
[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary

2. You don't know that.

3. I don't see your literal translation of that sentence anywhere.

[Alewyn]

Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

But in this case you are very stubborn and you underestimate me.

It's more that I am disappointed that you don't take my advice seriously, than that I feel offended.

I am truly amazed that you make our difference of opinion a personal issue. This has nothing to do with being stubborn, underestimating you or not taking your views seriously. If I did not consider your views important, I would have ignored you like I do with some others here. We are debating a point – nothing more. I am certain that, on reflection, you will agree that your response is somewhat over the top.

You may accuse me of labouring the point, but I still believe that my interpretation is quite credible. Just have another look at the full text:

Frisian transcription on “Project Gutenberg”:

“Thâ hja blât kêmon spisde Wr.alda hjam mith sina âdama; til thju tha månneska an him skolde bvnden wêsa. Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna: ånd nw bârdon ek twilif svna ånd twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle månneska kêmen.”

Ottema’s Dutch translation on Project Gutenberg”

“Toen deze te voorschijn kwamen, spijsde Wralda haar met zijnen adem, opdat de menschen aan hem zouden gebonden wezen. Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda. Haat trad tot haar binnen. En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren, elke juultijd een paar. Daarvan zijn alle menschen gekomen.”

My translation:

“When the last (Frya)came, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her in order that men should be bound to him. When she was full grown she took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wralda.
Hatred entered them. They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters; every Yule-time two. From this came all mankind.”

As you can see, from all of the above, none of these translations say “Wralda’s od”. It is taken as to be two different sentences, and quite frankly, two distinctly different concepts. That is why I separated them into two different paragraphs after having considered your view.

You will also notice that Wralda breathed his spirit upon Frya only but, hatred entered all three of them and not only Frya as the Dutch translation seems to suggest to me. As I explained before “hatred came into their lives” or, to put it in yet another way, “hatred became part of their being”.  The word “trad” is closer to “tread” than to “enter”.

This hatred was not part of Wralda’s doing. Later on in the book, Apollonia quoted from the doctrine that was found in the tower:

“But although everything is in Wralda, the wickedness of men is not from him. Wickedness comes from laziness, carelessness, and stupidity;”

In the original manuscript there does not appear to be a full stop after “Wralda’s”, in which case your interpretation could be right. The previous sentence, however, would then end with “visions”. This does not make sense. Whose visions?

Sometimes one has to take a holistic view of the book to try to determine the correct meaning such as in this case. Judging from the whole of the OLB, these old Fryans were not as liberal or “broad minded” as we are today. Nowhere else in the book are they as explicit as you suggest in this part. This was a history book which, no doubt, was intended to be read and taught to children as well. I find it unlikely that they would have described the penetration of these earth mothers’ bodies as you claim.

So, let us then just agree to disagree.

Edit.
I find it even more unbelievable that the old Fryans would have ascribed a carnal act to their most revered Creator.

Edited by Alewyn, 07 February 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Otharus]

Alewyn, on 07 February 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I am certain that, on reflection, you will agree that your response is somewhat over the top.

I agree. My response was o.t.t..

Quote

Just have another look at the full text:

Frisian transcription on “Project Gutenberg”:
...

This transcription is the one by Ottema, which is not without mistakes. He had to make it in a hurry. I only work with the original and have discovered many transcription errors, that sometimes lead to translation errors. This is one of them.

Here is, once more, the fragment in the original manuscript:

Quote

As you can see, from all of the above, none of these translations say “Wralda’s od”.

That is because they are based on Ottema's erroneous transliteration.

Quote

You will also notice that Wralda breathed his spirit upon Frya only

No, that's your erroneous translation (based on a misinterpretation by Sandbach); HJA KÉMON and HJAM are plural.

[006/26]
THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.
Ottema (1876):
Toen deze te voorschijn kwamen, spijsde Wralda haar met zijnen adem
Sandbach (1876):
When the last came into existence, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her
Jensma (2006):
Toen zij bloot kwamen, spijsde Wralda hen met zijn adem

Quote

The word “trad” is closer to “tread” than to “enter”.

Yes, so something "tread" into them.

I didn't know that was proper English.

Why could this not be something positive like "spirit", "life-force" (from Old-Norse), or something based on the Old-Saxon "od", which seems to have meant "luck", or "ancestral inheritance". Both the Old-Norse and the Old-Saxon versions have nothing to do with "hate", that's only in Latin.

Quote

In the original manuscript there does not appear to be a full stop after “Wralda’s”, in which case your interpretation could be right.

Indeed, my interpretations are based on the original manuscript only.

Quote

The previous sentence, however, would then end with “visions”. This does not make sense. Whose visions?

No, it ends with "DRÁMA", which means "dreams".
They got "FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA" = they got "fruits and nuts" (methaphor) or "joy and pleasure" (Dutch: vreugde en genot/ geneugten) "in the/ their dreams".

Compare:
[202/32]
NÉI THONGAR WÉRON FRIA.S SJVGUN WÁK.FÁMKES HJA ANDA DRÁME FORESKINNEN. SJVGUN NACHTA ÀFTER EKKÔRUM.
Ottema:
Na dien donder waren Fryas zeven waakmaagden haar in den droom verschenen, zeven nachten achtereen
Sandbach:
After the thunder Frya's seven watch-maidens appeared to her in a dream seven nights in succession.

Edited by Otharus, 07 February 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 07 February 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

I have said many times they combined Greek, Latin and Frisian myths and legends, spiced up with Viking history. Do you seriously think one can make up a story using every character, every 'god', every location and every adventure that show up in all of thses sources? It would have become a tome you could't have held in your hands.

Yesterday I showed you a Foste on Ameland, I showed you an Occo (a bard, druid, whatever), and so on. I showed you a Tutia the Vestal Virgin (OLB Burghtmaid or VestE Virgin) and so on.

You have to be creative to create a falsification: you do not copy to the letter from the sources you use. If you do then in that case you better end your 'falsification' with a list of 'references', lol.



.

The matter is, that there is no trace of the old Frisian mythology in the OLB whatsoever. The name Ocko does not belong to mythology. If Ocko Scharlensis is meant, than he was not a mythological person, but an historian. Tutia was not a vestal virgin, but a burchfam at Cadiz. It would not be wise of the author to use a Roman phenomenon in pre-Roman times.

I announced that I added a new chapter on the typography of the OLB to my website (in Dutch). The typography so far has not been studied. It might be interesting for you.

Edited by Knul, 07 February 2012 - 11:11 AM.