11638 replies to this topic

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

I may be ignorant of CodL's letters and diary, but not about his intelligence.

That is one of the first things I understood, and not just by his library.

+++

"In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD."

Or it is just nothing but your misinterpretation of the sentence and that point? It is not a point/period, like I already said: it is a connecting underscore between DRAMA and WRALDAS. Even the scan you posted showed that it was a connecting underscore, not a period/point:





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The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema. His own books deal with shipmaking and gardening.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema. His own books deal with shipmaking and gardening.

Really? I remember you posting about philosophical books written in French and owned by CodL?

And also about CodL owning books about Old Frisian language, ie: dictionaries.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

How do you measure, that Ottema was less intelligent than Over de Linden ?

Good question.

From what I learned throughout these years, Ottema and Cornelis over de Linden were opposites.

Ottema had had the education Over de Linden had not.

But having had an education will not make you more intelligent, it will make you more knowledgable.

Over de Linden studied on his own, and he most certainly was not a fool.

To me CodL was a clever guy, a shrewd guy, able to lie and pretend he was nothing but some innocent victim of circumstances and family history, and Ottema was like wax in his hands because CodL knew he could pretend and intend as much as he wanted to because an Ottema would gobble it all up whole.



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[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well, Puzz's translation is more of a poetic interpretation.

But I agree we should refrain from doing that and stay as close as possible to the original text.

My translation:
"Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela."

Sandbach's:
"Tread softly, for here lies Adela.""

Sandbach's translation is also a poetic interpretation, and not close to the original text.

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For what it is worth, I translated this as:


“Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 09 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

For what it is worth, I translated this as:


“Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

Well, that surely was the intent of the message, and it sounds beautiful, clear, and accurate.

Agreed, this is what we should use.

Btw: I do have somewhat of a 'poetic inclination', but I prefer a translation that is a combination of accuracy and poetry, and your translation is just fine.

I like it.



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Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Well, that surely was the intent of the message, and it sounds beautiful, clear, and accurate.

Agreed, this is what we should use.

Btw: I do have somewhat of a 'poetic inclination', but I prefer a translation that is a combination of accuracy and poetry, and your translation is just fine.

I like it.

Thanks Abe. I realy appreciate your approval.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 09 February 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Thanks Abe. I realy appreciate your approval.

You're welcome, Alewyn.

I know, I once assumed that English was your first language, and that then you replied by telling me that you had to 'rack your brains' while trying to come up with some translation into English.

Well, from all the translations of that one sentence, by Puzz, Otharus, and me, I think yours is the most poetic AND respectful (and that must have been the intention of the line).

It has this smooth, intelligent and sensitive.. uhm.. flavor (?) that I like most in poems.

++

EDIT:

I will tell you something else...

In high school we studied Dutch poetry, and also poetry from our socalled 'colonies'.

So, one day we were discussing poetry from the Dutch Antilles, and our teacher handed out booklets.

Of course that teacher expected to get back all the booklets he had handed out, because he knew no one would be that interested to be willing to steal it.

Heh, well, afterwards he collected the booklets, and then he missed only one...

OK, after something resembling a police interrogation, I admiited, red face and all, that I had stolen the booklet.

But he didn't respond as I expected... he said, "never in my dreams I would have imagined one of my pupils to steal poetry".

And that was it.

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Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Really? I remember you posting about philosophical books written in French and owned by CodL?

And also about CodL owning books about Old Frisian language, ie: dictionaries.

You may find the complete list of books of Cornelis over de Linden on http://rodinbook.nl/...erdelinden.html. As you can see there I have checked all titles and completed them. Over de Linden started to learn modern French (because of Volney), but did not understand Oldfrisian, Oldislandic, or other languages. It has been reported that  his compagnon Staderman knew some biblical Hebrew and Greek, and that he learned some Oldfrisian.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Good question.

From what I learned throughout these years, Ottema and Cornelis over de Linden were opposites.

Ottema had had the education Over de Linden had not.

But having had an education will not make you more intelligent, it will make you more knowledgable.

Over de Linden studied on his own, and he most certainly was not a fool.

To me CodL was a clever guy, a shrewd guy, able to lie and pretend he was nothing but some innocent victim of circumstances and family history, and Ottema was like wax in his hands because CodL knew he could pretend and intend as much as he wanted to because an Ottema would gobble it all up whole.



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Cornelis over de Linden was the victim of Ernest Stadermann, who influenced him very much as is stated in DBNL. That would make Ernest Stadermann more intelligent than Cornelis over de Linden ?

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Cornelis over de Linden was the victim of Ernest Stadermann, who influenced him very much as is stated in DBNL. That would make Ernest Stadermann more intelligent than Cornelis over de Linden ?

It would make Stadermann an accomplish of Over de Linden.

Yeah, agreed, a CodL would use the expertise of a Stadermann, and use Stadermann's drive and fanatisiscm to his own advantage.

Stadermann was the fanatic, CodL was the clever, scheming guy. CodL used anything he could find and anyone he was able to please with his sorry story about his family history to help him defend his, heh, 'family chronicles'.

I know an Otharus doesn't like this angle one bit, but I am sorry to say that I know guys who did exactly that.

They only didn't become famous like CodL because of what they did.

Maybe CodL was as innocent as a new-born baby, but his letters can never be proof of that.

ANYONE can pretend to be innocent. All they need is a smooth talk, an excellent command of their language (meaning: no slips of the tongue), and an excellent memory.

Heh, ask any person who sells cars, or whatever.

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Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

You're welcome, Alewyn.

I hope you will not laugh out too loud and that you will pardon my getting a bit philosophical, but this is how I see this epitaph: “Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

If the OLB is real, we owe our glimpse into this forgotten history and people to this lady. The Oera Linda Book is her legacy. These words then speak directly to us; more than 2500 years later!

One can almost interpret them to mean:

“Do not deny her life but take time to reflect on what Adela ovira Linda gave to the world.”

Just imagine anyone of us leaving a legacy that will still be of significance 2500 years hence, say,  in the year 4500 AD!

Edited by Alewyn, 09 February 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 09 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I hope you will not laugh out too loud and that you will pardon my getting a bit philosophical, but this is how I see this epitaph: “Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

If the OLB is real, we owe our glimpse into this forgotten history and people to this lady. The Oera Linda Book is her legacy. These words then speaks directly to us; more than 2500 years later!

One can almost interpret them to mean:

“Do not deny her life but take time to reflect on what Adela ovira Linda gave to the world.”

Just imagine anyone of us leaving a legacy that will still be of significance 2500 years hence, say,  in the year 4500 AD!

Yes Alewyn, I DO know this line is about having respect for someone famous in Frisian history.

I will not laugh out loud, I do know how you feel.

Let me tell you something else: maybe someday it will be a proven fact that the OLB is a hoax, or a fabrication, or whetever I should call it.

Still, I would like it if someone said: "OK, the OLB is nothing but a fantasy, but I want the text of the OLB to be part of Frisian heritage, and maybe even as the text of the Frisian national anthem."

No problems here, I know about Frisian history, and I think they have every right to adopt a grand fantasy like the OLB for their national anthem.

No sht, I would LOVE it.

I do hope I made it clear: I learned a lot about ancient Frisian history when researching for this thread, and much more than I learned in highschool.

I would be perfectly happy if some Frisian guy said it would be a great idea to adopt a line from the OLB as part of their national anthem.

_____

EDIT:

Otharus once suggested that the Frisians and their true history were being suppressed.

Well, I cannot say I agree with his point of view, but I think I did my best to promote their accomplishments throughout history.

And I have nothing to gain by that. I am not a Frisian.

I learned about their history, and I posted about it.

And the more I learned about their TRUE history, the more they gained my respect.

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Edited by Abramelin, 09 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Yes Alewyn, I DO know this line is about having respect for someone famous in Frisian history.

I will not laugh out loud, I do know how you feel.

Let me tell you something else: maybe someday it will be a proven fact that the OLB is a hoax, or a fabrication, or whetever I should call it.

Still, I would like it if someone said: "OK, the OLB is nothing but a fantasy, but I want the text of the OLB to be part of Frisian heritage, and maybe even as the text of the Frisian national anthem."

No problems here, I know about Frisian history, and I think they have every right to adopt a grand fantasy like the OLB for their national anthem.

No sht, I would LOVE it.

I do hope I made it clear: I learned a lot about ancient Frisian history when researching for this thread, and much more than I learned in highschool.

I would be perfectly happy if some Frisian guy said it would be a great idea to adopt a line from the OLB as part of their national anthem.

_____

EDIT:

Otharus once suggested that the Frisians and their true history were being suppressed.

Well, I cannot say I agree with his point of view, but I think I did my best to promote their accomplishments throughout history.

And I have nothing to gain by that. I am not a Frisian.

I learned about their history, and I posted about it.

And the more I learned about their TRUE history, the more they gained my respect.

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Maat 'k hem raad.

Maybe this is handled before, but for me it is clear that the personal Names used, are also common flemisch words.

For instance:

"Thit is thju skędnesse fon Jon aend Minerva."

Translated in Sandbach

"This is the history of Jon and of Min-erva."

Can be easily read in West-Flemish:

'This is the history of Your and Mine Heritage' (non materiële erfenis, eigenlijk er-van-is, afkomst, cultuur)

Oera Linda can been read by the Flemisch people if they speak out loud the phonetic words at the right of Sandbachs text.

BTW I see many prints of the original script.  Very interesting, where can this be found?

[Otharus]

Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema.

There is no proof for any contact between Over de Lindenm and Stadermann, other than in the year they were neighbors (1845).

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 10 February 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Maat 'k hem raad.

Maybe this is handled before, but for me it is clear that the personal Names used, are also common flemisch words.

For instance:

"Thit is thju skêdnesse fon Jon aend Minerva."

Translated in Sandbach

"This is the history of Jon and of Min-erva."

Can be easily read in West-Flemish:

'This is the history of Your and Mine Heritage' (non materiële erfenis, eigenlijk er-van-is, afkomst, cultuur)

Oera Linda can been read by the Flemisch people if they speak out loud the phonetic words at the right of Sandbachs text.

BTW I see many prints of the original script.  Very interesting, where can this be found?

Photos of the original text can be found here: http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/

And Overwijn (the one who, after Ottema and Wirth, published a book about the OLB plus translation) showed us an example of the Menapian language (a prayer), and those guys lived in what is now Flanders. This Menapian language looked a lot like the language used in the OLB. And that could be - like I have posted before - that these Menapians were just another tribe of Frisians.

Around this page I talked about the Menapians:
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6030

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 February 2012 - 10:46 AM.