11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Thanks very much Van Gorp !

So the 'real' date is indeed november 14, 1245, and not because someone 'blundered', lol.

[Abramelin]

But now I really want to see the original document for myself.

You have made it crystal-clear to me that a possible error about the date is just waiting around the corner.

And if you check the copy, you will notice it is fkg infested with typos and corrections.

Just imagine this: the guy who copied that 13th century document made a mistake, maybe several mistakes.

I know you believers in the OLB are convinced I am only out to try to prove the OLB is nothing but a bull 19th century fantasy, a Frisian nationalistic fabrication to prove them to be the origin of European, Mediterranean, and Middle Eastern civilization.

But then you are wrong.

I have been accused of having some sort of agenda, or being a 'skeptic just for the hell of it'.

No, no, no... but yep, I do not believe the OLB is what it is supposed to be, but I am willing to post about anything I find, even if it might contradict my previous statements.

And I have not seen anything similar from those who fiercely defend the OLB.

Otharus's latest posts are about religion.

Well, I think the OLB is a new-age Bible for many.

I tell ya: we have been **** beyond compare by those who believed in some ancient "Holy Book", and I am not very pleased to see that happen once again. We had the Jews, we had the Christians, we had the Muslims.

What next??

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Van Gorp, the word before - what you call - December is "anno domini" or actually an abbreviation: "anno dni".

But that is my problem, what month is it?? I can't read that month 'hieroglyph'.

And yes, the last sentience is indeed in Dutch, and it says that.... it is a copy of the original, jeesh.

http://www.cartago.n...kla0006_001.jpg

++++

EDIT:

ANNODOMINI_1245_2.jpg

anno dni m cc xlv. xvm ???

+++++++++++

EDIT:

God, I should have my eyes checked:

ANNODOMINI_1245_3.jpg

Yes, it is of course December, but I have no idea what comes right after "anno dni m cc xlv. xvm"

Well, anyway, it's December.

But it is a copy of the original, and like I showed you yesterday, another source claims the month is November.



.

It reads  Anno d[omi]ni m[ille] cc [duecento] xlv . xviii k[a]l[endae] decembris = 18 december 1245. It is the usual mediaeval Latin date and has nothing to do with the Roman date and recalculation.

Edited by Knul, 25 February 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 25 February 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

It reads  Anno d[omi]ni m[ille] cc [duecento] xlv . xviii k[a]l[endae] (18 december 1245).

Van Gorp already posted an excellent post about how we should interpret the Roman date in that - copied - manuscript.

He is right, I was wrong.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Well, I think the OLB is a new-age Bible for many.

What makes you think that?

The conclusion of my previous posts (criticism of religions) was going to be that the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions are based on the idolization of books (or texts) that are claimed (by 'priests' of all sorts) to be the 'word of god'.

OLB does not suggest to be anything like that.

It can be inspiring, yes, but someone who would use it like a holy book, has not understood it!

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I tell ya: we have been **** beyond compare by those who believed in some ancient "Holy Book", and I am not very pleased to see that happen once again. We had the Jews, we had the Christians, we had the Muslims.

In this I'm on your side.

I was born and raised to suspect anything religious.

Last year I read a translation of the Quran and concluded that part is poetry, while the other part is war-propaganda.

I like the medieval church in the village where I live and I basically like what they do there nowadays, but some of our current problems have their roots in old propagandistic texts that should be recognised as such.

(not sure if i express my thoughts accurately as i had some beerenburgs, lol)

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 February 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

What makes you think that?

The conclusion of my previous posts (criticism of religions) was going to be that the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions are based on the idolization of books (or texts) that are claimed (by 'priests' of all sorts) to be the 'word of god'.

OLB does not suggest to be anything like that.

It can be inspiring, yes, but someone who would use it like a holy book, has not understood it!

With 'new-age Bible' I meant to say nothing more than a newly divinely inspired book based on some grand history of some other "chosen people", and this time the Fryans/Frisians.

These "Fryans" are nothing but an alternative to that other 'chosen people', the Jews.

There are - to me - too many hints in the OLB to ignore that idea. I already posted about "Gosa" almost quoting from the Bible.

The one (or those) who fabricated the OLB were out to look better than those.... fkg "GOLA" (="Jews". Just read Van Gorp's post, and you knew what sentiment is behind it all. And to Van Gorp I say: No man, I am not suggesting anything bad. Get that?).  They just reversed accepted history.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

... some grand history of some other "chosen people", and this time the Fryans/Frisians.

Chosen by whom?

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 February 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

In this I'm on your side.

I was born and raised to suspect anything religious.

Last year I read a translation of the Quran and concluded that part is poetry, while the other part is war-propaganda.

I like the medieval church in the village where I live and I basically like what they do there nowadays, but some of our current problems have their roots in old propagandistic texts that should be recognised as such.

(not sure if i express my thoughts accurately as i had some beerenburgs, lol)

Listen, I have NO problems at all with Christians who try to live according to what Jesus told them to do. If these people live according to what they believe in, then I am perfectly happy with that, no problems at all with that.

But you know as well as I do there are not many Christians doing and living according to what Jesus asked them to do.

And I was born and raised by a very Catholic father (from the province of Brabant); he couldn't sleep well if he hadn't visited church on Sundays, but also by a mother who really HATED anything Catholic, lol.

I have been interested in Sufism for decades now. These people are supposed to have a 'secret' knowledge of Islam. No they don't, they USE Islam and the Islam lingo to convey their message of an alternative truth, psychology and reality.

And they are still being killed because of it by those 'pious' Islamic fundamentalists because of their own  interpretation of what Mohammad - "pbuh" - taught.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Van Gorp already posted an excellent post about how we should interpret the Roman date in that - copied - manuscript.

He is right, I was wrong.

No, he was wrong. The date is not Roman, but mediaeval Latin.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

With 'new-age Bible' I meant to say nothing more than a newly divinely inspired book based on some grand history of some other "chosen people", and this time the Fryans/Frisians.

These "Fryans" are nothing but an alternative to that other 'chosen people', the Jews.

There are - to me - too many hints in the OLB to ignore that idea. I already posted about "Gosa" almost quoting from the Bible.

The one (or those) who fabricated the OLB were out to look better than those.... fkg "GOLA" (="Jews". Just read Van Gorp's post, and you knew what sentiment is behind it all. And to Van Gorp I say: No man, I am not suggesting anything bad. Get that?).  They just reversed accepted history.

There are many references to the Christian Bible in the OLB, but that does not make it a sacred text.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Thanks very much Van Gorp !

So the 'real' date is indeed november 14, 1245, and not because someone 'blundered', lol.

No, the real date is December, 18th, 1245.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 25 February 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

No, the real date is December, 18th, 1245.

Then you didn't understand him.

I did.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 24 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Otharus, Knul, Van Gorp, anyone: what can you make of that date? I recognize the year, MCCXLV = 1245
I recognize XVIII = 18.

But what comes last looks like 'Chinese' to me.

One translation says it's December 18:

Acta sunt hec Groninge anno domini MCCXLV, XVIII kalendas decembris.
These are the reports of the public acts of Groningen in the year 1245, 18 December

Another says it's November 14th:

http://books.google....l=nl&sa=X&ei=Y-

I think the last one is wrong concerning the day number, but maybe it is right about the month, November.

Why is that interesting?

Hilde, Hielke, Hielko, Hilko, Hille, Hylko, Hielkje, Hil, Hilda, Hilla, Hilly, Hiltje, Hylke, Ilda (Du.), Elda (Ital.).

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis 'strijd'. De naam betekent; de strijder, de strijdlustige

Op 17 november is er een feestdag ter ere van Hilda, in de 8ste eeuw abdis van een klooster bij Whitby in Engeland.

(...)

Derived from the German 'hild', meaning 'battle'. The name means 'warrior', 'the militant'.

On November 17th there is a festival in the honor of Hilda, during the 6th century in a convent near Whitby, England.


=====

Hidde, Hiddo, Hidske, Hidda, Hiddeke.

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis; strijd.

Voornamelijk in Friesland en Groningen voorkomende naam.

(...)

Mainly a common name in Friesland and Groningen

http://www.gerardlen...aam/namenh.html


I already quoted from another site that explains "Hidde" (and not Sandbach's "Hiddo", which is not in the OLB) as a girl's name meaning "brave heroin".


So what I am saying is this: a woman called "Hidde Aldgerda/Aldgerdis" , accompanied by her two sons Occo and Gergardus, sold her property, including 1400 books, to a nearby convent with the name Yesse/Jesse.

A day after her socalled "name-day".

I had never heard of a "name-day" before I met Hungarians and Serbians/Kroats. It is the day of the saint you have been named after. That day is to them as important as the day they were born and they have a party (I know, I was there).

Can you imagine this: a woman, a widow called "Hidde Aldgerda/Algerdis" decided, a day after the celibration of her name-day, to sell her property to some nearby convent. And she went accompanied by her two sons of which one was called "Occo".

You might think that - after reading the OLB - no Frisian was inclined to 'honor' Christian name-days, but I think they just had to. Those times were not like modern times when you can say , "Fk Christmas, I am not interested".

You would have to follow the 'Christian rules', or else be branded as a heretic and face the consequences.

And most often you would simply be killed by hanging, or be stoned to death, or drowned in some swamp.

People knew your first name, and they expected you to celibrate your name-day because some fkg 'saint' happened to have the same name as you had.

If you didn't, your ass was for the pious ones, heh.




.

The date is December 18th, which is not the name date of Hidde, etc., but of Winibald, Gatien, Basiliaan: Vinebaud, Winbald, Wineboud; Gertjan, Gratiaan, Gratien; Bas, Basiel, Basilien
s. http://nl.wikipedia....agen_-_december

Edited by Knul, 25 February 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 25 February 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

There are many references to the Christian Bible in the OLB, but that does not make it a sacred text.

I do know about those references, and I have posted about them many times.

What's been written about "Gosa" in the OLB, or what she's supposed to have said, is like quotes from the Bible.

____

You don't really get any word from what I post, eh?

I will bet there are Germans, Dutch, Scots, Brits, South Africans, Americans, and even Chinese who know what I am hinting at.

But you do not have the faintest clue.