11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

lilthor, on 28 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Sorry for that digression about Frisian girls.


Back to it then:

Abe it is your posts #10501 and #10507 that, for me, represent the extremes which tend to make my head spin a little.

On the one hand we have a culture that had an incredibly strong oral tradition of passing their history and mores down through the generations.  Reading this, it seems possible such stories just might survive intact over millenia.

On the other hand, we see politically-motivated "scholars" who aren't too shy to make stuff up to further some agenda.  Reading this, it seems possible the entire OLB is a bunch of nationalistic hooey.

I still want to dig to the bottom of de Burcht Leiden.

You bring up a couple of interesting things.

To start with the last: that burght in Leiden dates from no earlier than maybe the 10th century AD.

It's not anything prehistoric.

=

That post of mine you pointed at is about why Frisians were motivated to concoct an ancient ancestry.

It was quite common back then: we are the descendants of the sons of Noah, we fought alongside with the Trojans against the Greeks, and so on.

=

And the "oral" tradition you talk about: in times past people didn't read much or anything at all, they just listened to those who did. And from those who told them stories of what they had read, these listeners to their stories in their turn fabricated their own myths.

[lilthor]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

You bring up a couple of interesting things.

To start with the last: that burght in Leiden dates from no earlier than maybe the 10th century AD.

It's not anything prehistoric.

=

That post of mine you pointed at is about why Frisians were motivated to concoct an ancient ancestry.

It was quite common back then: we are the descendants of the sons of Noah, we fought alongside with the Trojans against the Greeks, and so on.

=

And the "oral" tradition you talk about: in times past people didn't read much or anything at all, they just listened to those who did. And from those who told them stories of what they had read, these listeners to their stories in their turn fabricated their own myths.

Yes, I know the mounds themselves date only to the 10th century.  My theory (and it's only just that, pulled from a dark place) is this:

Those mound builders likely would not have built on perfectly virgin ground.  Something would have been at those sites previously since they were probably at the center of settlements going back to deep antiquity.

What was there, at those exact places, before the mounds?  I want to believe that maybe even citadels were there; that would be cool.

Who knows, maybe the mounds have served to protect cultural remnants of prehistory from over 2000+ years of intervening weather and human progress.

Quote

If you prefer long, tall blonds, then yeah

*nevermind*

Edited by lilthor, 29 February 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Abramelin]

Those artificial hills can indeed be quite old:

In the Dutch province of Friesland, an artificial dwelling hill is called terp (plural terpen). Terp means "village" in Old Frisian and is cognate with English thorp, Danish torp, German Dorf, modern West Frisian doarp and Dutch dorp. The better word for these mounds would therefore be wierde or Wurt, but terp has become the predominant term.

Historical Frisian settlements were built on artificial terpen up to 15 m height to be safe from the floods in periods of rising sea levels. The first terp-building period dates from 500 BC, the second from 200 BC to 50 BC. In the mid 3rd century, the rise of sea level was so dramatic that the clay district was deserted, and settlers returned only around AD 400. A third terp-building period dates from AD 700 (Old Frisian times). This ended with the coming of the dike somewhere around 1200. During the 18th and 19th centuries, many terps were destroyed to use the fertile soil they contained to fertilize farm fields. Terpen were usually well fertilized by the decay of the rubbish and personal waste deposited by their inhabitants during centuries. The largest terp, seen on the picture to the right, is still preserved.

In the Dutch province of Groningen an artificial dwelling hill is referred to as wierde (plural wierden). Like in Friesland the first wierde-building occurred 500 BC or maybe earlier.

http://en.wikipedia....l_dwelling_hill

But the one in Leiden, on which that burcht stands, is not that old:

Leiden formed on an artificial hill (today called the Burcht van Leiden) at the confluence of the rivers Oude and Nieuwe Rijn (Old and New Rhine). In the oldest reference to this, from circa 860, the settlement was called Leithon. The landlord of Leiden, situated in a stronghold on the hill, was initially subject to the Bishop of Utrecht but around 1100 the burgraves became subject to the county of Holland. This county got its name in 1101 from a domain near the stronghold: Holtland or Holland.

Leiden was sacked in 1047 by Emperor Henry III. Early 13th century, Ada, Countess of Holland took refuge here when she was fighting in a civil war against her uncle, William I, Count of Holland. He besieged the stronghold and captured Ada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden

As ar as I know they have dug in the hill but didn't find anything of the age of the terpen in Friesland and Groningen.

[Abramelin]

It may have been the attraction of trade, Christian conviction, or the simple quest, but according to Adam of Bremen, writing about 1070 AD, regular troops of Netherlanders set off from the Zwin and sailed first to Scotland before touching at Iceland, Greenland and ultimately America.

[xxxiii] These seafaring visits include, in their retelling, a fair amount of fantastic happenings (eg, giants, the discovery of gold, fortified cities and the like) which might be interpreted as later additions or a medieval copywriter’s embellishments. Since little archaeological record exists to substantiate these claims, they remain a tantalizing hint of direct expeditions to the New World before Columbus from the Low Countries.[xxxiv]

-

[xxxiii] For Adam of Bremen in modern translation please see Francis J. Tschan, (trans. & ed.), History of the archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen, (New York: Columbia University Press, 2002). Adam of Bremen calls these Netherlanders “Frisians” since at that time Robert of Frisia was Count of Flanders (1071-1093). For the only detailed discussion of Netherlanders sailing for America I am aware of in a modern tongue please see Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak op de Ontdekking van Amerika voor Columbus”, in Bijdragen voor Vaderlandsche Geschiednis en Oudheidkunde Verzameld en Uitgegeven door Is. An. Nijhoff, VII (1850), pp.23-33.

[xxxiv] See Martinus Hamconius, writing before 1620, who claims that Netherlanders reached the mines of Mexico and settled Chile in Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak", op.cit., pp.30-33.

http://flemishameric...a-part-one.html

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

I think we have by now squeezed out every posssible source to the last drop.

I don't agree.
Even for the online sources alone, that is not true.
But offline there's plenty of juicy sources left.

Just finished reading the well-written and interesting "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" ("the secret of the OLB"; not available online) by dr. M. de Jong Hzn (1927).

Bought two new books today:

- "Genootschapscultuur in Friesland ~ Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002; #82 of "De Vrije Fries")

- a second copy of "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by G. Th. Jensma (I made many notes in my first copy, but want to re-read with fresh look)

Will be busy studying offline, and aim at publishing something - when I'm ready - on paper.

But if something really interesting happens here, I'll be around.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 29 February 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I don't agree.
Even for the online sources alone, that is not true.
But offline there's plenty of juicy sources left.

Just finished reading the well-written and interesting "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" ("the secret of the OLB"; not available online) by dr. M. de Jong Hzn (1927).

Bought two new books today:

- "Genootschapscultuur in Friesland ~ Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002; #82 of "De Vrije Fries")

- a second copy of "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by G. Th. Jensma (I made many notes in my first copy, but want to re-read with fresh look)

Will be busy studying offline, and aim at publishing something - when I'm ready - on paper.

But if something really interesting happens here, I'll be around.

OK, I just thought people had finally run out of steam, lol.

I am looking forward to read what you learned.

[Abramelin]

Menno, you once posted on your website that the OLB "Middle Sea ("middel-se") was the former Zuiderzee (the present IJselmeer).



But now I read on your website that this Middle Sea is the North Sea ("Noordzee"):

"Ten oosten paalden we tot het uiteinde van de Oostzee, en ten westen aan de Middellandse [69] zee (Noordzee)"

http://rodinbook.nl/...lingmodern.html

What made you change your mind? I know I once posted an image from a German website about the OLB that showed an image of Doggerland (the once dry bed of the North Sea) with a lake near England, west of the Dogger Bank, and that lake was called "Mittelsee":



http://www.erdexpans...de/atlantis.htm

I know I have been repeating ad nauseum that the OLB Middle Sea was nothing but the estuary that split the province of Friesland in half up to the 13th century, the Frisian "Middelzee":



But although I may never have said it, I will it say now: the former Zuiderzee indeed lay smack in the middle of the medieval Frisian territory ("Magna Frisia", or "Magna Frisionum" or whatever it was called in Latin). The medieval Frisian territory - before the wars with the Franks and later the counts of Holland - ranged from Flanders to Denmark.

(Click to enlarge)
 nederl10eeuw2.jpg   68.58K   16 downloads

I have also said many times that the OLB "Kadik" was the nothing but the coastal town of Katwijk, a town that is called "Kattik"" or "Kaddik" by it's inhabitants, even up to now, and it may once have been "Lugdunum Batavorum" or simply "Lugdunum" because the "Batavorum" part of the name was added much later by those 'evil' Hollanders, lol.

Now look at this picture: it's a 17th century image of the Lugdunum harbour (click to enlarge):

 Lugdunum_Batavorum_1693.jpg   82.36K   17 downloads

You see those pillars at the entrance of the harbour?

If the Middle Sea was the Zuiderzee, and Kadik was Katwijk (or Cadiz), then those pillars could be Hercules' Pillars.

I know you will never agree, but any of the socalled 'suspects' of creating the OLB had more than enough imagination to use all these ancient images and texts to fabricate something that would confuse and irritate people for the next 150 years.

Whoever created the OLB, he (or they) really have managed to earn my appeciation for what they created.

It's equal to the Voynich Manuscript. But... at least scientists proved that the Voynich Manuscript dated from late medieval times.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 February 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 29 February 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I have also said many times that the OLB "Kadik" was the nothing but the coastal town of Katwijk, a town that is called "Kattik"" or "Kaddik" by it's inhabitants, even up to now, and it may once have been "Lugdunum Batavorum" or simply "Lugdunum" because the "Batavorum" part of the name was added much later by those 'evil' Hollanders, lol.

Now look at this picture: it's a 17th century image of the Lugdunum harbour (click to enlarge):

Lugdunum_Batavorum_1693.jpg

You see those pillars at the entrance of the harbour?

If the Middle Sea was the Zuiderzee, and Kadik was Katwijk (or Cadiz), then those pillars could be Hercules' Pillars.

I know you will never agree, but any of the socalled 'suspects' of creating the OLB had more than enough imagination to use all these ancient images and texts to fabricate something that would confuse and irritate people for the next 150 years.

Whoever created the OLB, he (or they) really have managed to earn my appeciation for what they created.

It's equal to the Voynich Manuscript. But... at least scientists proved that the Voynich Manuscript dated from late medieval times.




.

We discussed this before. I left the idea about the Middelzee = Zuiderzee, when I found, that in the OLB only the Middelzee = Mediterranean Sea is meant.  

By the way I have good news about the Waraburch and Aldega.  I identified Aldega as Hoorn, Jensma as Enkhuizen.

However. there has existed an other place called Horn close to Andijk. Probably this place has disappeared in the Zuiderzee, so they built a new place Hoorn on a safer place at some distance from the Zuiderzee like happened in the case of Old Naarden - Naarden. But again the new place Hoorn was threatened by the Zuiderzee, when the Hoornse Hop was formed as a result of a flood. The Aldergamude indeed is at Enkhuizen at the Oude Gouw gates.

Look on Google Maps for Andijk, Hornpad 7 and see the ringdik of the former Waraburch, which can be reached from Medeasblik along the sea dyke in 3 hours (15 km). The distance is 3 poles (3x5 km) from Medeasblik. The Waraburch is a quarter of an hour (ca. 1,2 km) from Horn.

Attached Files

•  Waraburcht verkleind.JPG   154.15K   8 downloads

Edited by Knul, 01 March 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[bom shankra]

wow, a 700 page thread, yeah but its un-memorable at best, i read up to page 30 at least (and then skim read), but please bring it to a conclusion - inoccent seekers are getting entangled in this quagmire  - its not that interesting really....

Edited by shanka boom, 02 March 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Abramelin]

shanka boom, on 02 March 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

wow, a 700 page thread, yeah but its un memroble at best, i read up to page 30 at least, but please bring it to a conclusion - inoccent seekers are getting entangled in this quagmirew  - its not that interesting really....

Well, if it's not that interesting then you better go read other threads, right?

There are more than enough threads about Atlantis and aliens intervening in ancient cultures and pyramids.

Maybe more to your liking?

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 01 March 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

We discussed this before. I left the idea about the Middelzee = Zuiderzee, when I found, that in the OLB only the Middelzee = Mediterranean Sea is meant.  

By the way I have good news about the Waraburch and Aldega.  I identified Aldega as Hoorn, Jensma as Enkhuizen.

However. there has existed an other place called Horn close to Andijk. Probably this place has disappeared in the Zuiderzee, so they built a new place Hoorn on a safer place at some distance from the Zuiderzee like happened in the case of Old Naarden - Naarden. But again the new place Hoorn was threatened by the Zuiderzee, when the Hoornse Hop was formed as a result of a flood. The Aldergamude indeed is at Enkhuizen at the Oude Gouw gates.

Look on Google Maps for Andijk, Hornpad 7 and see the ringdik of the former Waraburch, which can be reached from Medeasblik along the sea dyke in 3 hours (15 km). The distance is 3 poles (3x5 km) from Medeasblik. The Waraburch is a quarter of an hour (ca. 1,2 km) from Horn.

If the Middel Sea is nothing but the Med throughout the OLB , then there is something wrong in the description of the extense of Frya's empire (Aster Sea in the direction of the morning, Middle Sea in the direction of the evening). The only people who can say the Med is in the direction of the evening are those living in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel. Some say the word "Europe" comes from a Semitic word meaning "west" (erev), others say it was a Greek word meaning "west" while Asia was a Greek word for east. But maybe they are all wrong, and Europe is an ancient word meaning North??

==

About that ringdike:

 Andijk_ringdijk.jpg   53.92K   3 downloads

How old is that ringdike in Andijk? Did it exist in the 19th century and before?

And did you notice that "Aldega" is spelled in 2 different ways? It's "Aldega" and "AldeRga".

[Alewyn]

Abe, I am trying to put some figures in here from photobucket but I I have forgotten how. Can you help?

[img]http://http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/EuropeSunriseSunset-Model.jpg[/img]

Edited by Alewyn, 02 March 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 02 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Abe, I am trying to put some figures in here from photobucket but I I have forgotten how. Can you help?

Wow, I was busy with a reply, and all of yours is gone.

Yes, copy the url to your image. Then create a post. Click on the button just above the text box (your reply) that says "Insert image" (its left of the litle envelope). Then enter the link to your image. But be sure before you clicked on that button, that you had your cursor on the position where you wanted to place your image.

Another, more safe way is this: copy and paste the url of the image into the text box. Then type directly in front of the url:

[img]

and directly to the right

[/img]

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 March 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 02 March 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Wow, I was busy with a reply, and all of yours is gone.

Yes, copy the url to your image. Then create a post. Click on the button just above the text box (your reply) that says "Insert image" (its left of the litle envelope). Then enter the link to your image. But be sure before you clicked on that button, that you had your cursor on the position where you wanted to place your image.

Another, more safe way is this: copy and paste the url of the image into the text box. Then type directly in front of the url:

[img]

and directly to the right

[/img]

.

Thanks Abe, I think I found the problem. Now I'll try again

Edited by Alewyn, 02 March 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Otharus]

Alewyn, on 02 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Abe, I am trying to put some figures in here from photobucket but I I have forgotten how. Can you help?

{img} http://http://i846.photobuc...unset-Model.jpg {/img}

The link had "http://" twice.
Just remove one of them.

Edited by Otharus, 02 March 2012 - 01:48 PM.