11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

That the Dutch spelling would be more authentic is purely nonsens.

Not everything that you do not understand is nonsense, Kul.

Next time you think that something is nonsense, read it another few times and think.

I said that the OLB-spelling (FORSK) "suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian."

Halbertsma would not have wanted to suggest that!!!

Edited by Otharus, 24 March 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Old English "forsc" is almost exactly the same as the Dutch "vorsch". This is of course no proof of Halbertsma writing/composing the OLB, but it could have given a guy like him the idea that FORSK would be quite close to the original and oldest spelling.

Halbertsma considered English as nothing more than another (and younger) form of Frisian.

To give an idea of Old English, or "Ænglisc" (and the -c- in Ænglisc is said to have been pronounced as a -sh- , although I have the idea it should be a -k- in this word):

http://ang.wikipedia..._Englisc_sprǣc

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Edited by Abramelin, 24 March 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Knul]

Otharus, on 24 March 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Not everything that you do not understand is nonsense, Kul.

Next time you think that something is nonsense, read it another few times and think.

I said that the OLB-spelling (FORSK) "suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian."

Halbertsma would not have wanted to suggest that!!!

Don't behave like a frog !


P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek
vors* [amfibie] {vorsch(e), versch 1201-1250} met metathesis, net als oudengels forsc, vgl. oudhoogduits frosk (hoogduits Frosch), oudnoors froskr, verwant met engels froth [schuim], betekenis dus ‘het slijmige dier’.

So, why wouldn't Halbertsma use the Oldenglish variant ?

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

The Old English "forsc" is almost exactly the same as the Dutch "vorsch". This is of course no proof of Halbertsma writing/composing the OLB, but it could have given a guy like him the idea that FORSK would be quite close to the original and oldest spelling.

The point is, that Halbertsma thought the Old-english spelling was "frosk".

From Kul's post:

Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Dr. J.H. HALBERTSMA to Dr. L.A. te Winkel.

"Nl. vorsch, old Eng. frosk, currently bastardised into frog"

[Otharus]

Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Don't behave like a frog !

P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek
vors* [amfibie] {vorsch(e), versch 1201-1250} met metathesis, net als oudengels forsc, vgl. oudhoogduits frosk (hoogduits Frosch), oudnoors froskr, verwant met engels froth [schuim], betekenis dus ‘het slijmige dier’.

So, why wouldn't Halbertsma use the Oldenglish variant ?

I'm sorry to see you loose control.

Halbertsma (1789 - 1869) did not have access to your 1997 dictionary.

He thought the correct Old-english spelling was "frosk",  according to your very own quote.

Edited by Otharus, 24 March 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 24 March 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

The point is, that Halbertsma thought the Old-english spelling was "frosk".

From Kul's post:

OK, then Halbertsma wasn't the one who came up with it.

I do not stick religiously to Halbertsma as a possible 'suspect', but I am convinced that if anyone had anything to do with writing the OLB, he was amongst the 'suspects'.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Don't behave like a frog !


P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek
vors* [amfibie] {vorsch(e), versch 1201-1250} met metathesis, net als oudengels forsc, vgl. oudhoogduits frosk (hoogduits Frosch), oudnoors froskr, verwant met engels froth [schuim], betekenis dus ‘het slijmige dier’.

So, why wouldn't Halbertsma use the Oldenglish variant ?

This is what you posted earlier, Menno:

Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Over de uitspraak van het Landfriesch,

door

Dr. J.H. HALBERTSMA.

Aan Dr. L.A. te Winkel.


Nl. vorsch, oud Eng. frosk, heden verbasterd in frog, Sf. frósk, Lf. froásk;
bron: L.A. te Winkel en J.A. van Dijk(red.), De Taalgids, Tijdschrift tot uitbreiding van de kennis derNederlandsche taal, Negende jaargang. pag. 23. C. van der Post Jr., Utrecht 1867.

So Halbertsma knew the word from Stadfries (Sf) and Landfries (Lf).

[Abramelin]

Just to make it a little but more clear: Menno, you contradict yourself, and Otharus is actually right about you contradicting yourself.

It's no shame admitting you are wrong once in while, right?

This is not - or should not be - a fight between gorillas thumping their chests, this should be about what is right and wrong about/in the OLB.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 March 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Herodotus already said the Etruscans came from Lydia:



And genetics has finally proven him right:

Origins of the Etruscans: Was Herodotus right?
http://www.nytimes.c....1.5127788.html

The enigma of Italy's ancient Etruscans is finally unravelled
http://www.guardian....taly.johnhooper

Discussion here:

http://www.usmessage...-etruscans.html

Herodotus was a bit wrong. They were from Lycia not Lydia. I figured this out myself but it's all over the internet once you check it out.

Paying Tribute to the Persians

The Etruscans were aware of their ancient link to their Asian homeland and maintained many of the traditions of Lycia, such as their own celebrated league of twelve federated cities. The Lycians were recorded by Homer as coming to the aid of Troy, their generals Sarpedon and Glaucus fighting against the invading fleet of Menelaus and Agamemnon. Yet clearly the Lycians also felt some innate kinship with the Greeks, for that most Hellenistic of all the deities, Apollo and his virgin sister Artemis, were born on Lycian soil (at the sanctuary of Letoon) while one the gods most celebrated temple-oracles was also sited in Lycia (at Didyma – a brood sister to Delhi and Delos).
http://www.travelint...f-ancient-lycia

I won't bog the thread down with the Etruscans though.

[Abramelin]

Lycia was/became - once - part of the Lydian kingdom.

You can see that by the map I posted.

But it is not about Herodotus being right or wrong, it is about Herodotus being an available source in the 19th century.

And he was.

[Abramelin]

From Sandbach's translation of the OLB:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

(...)

"Britain was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their Burgtmaagd had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a B on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue. Moreover, our sailors and merchants had many factories among the distant Krekalanders and in Lydia. In Lydia (Lybia) the people are black."

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au


The real Anatolian (in present-day Turkey) Lydians we all know from ancient Greek sources called their capital "Sfard", and that is almost the same as "swart" or "zwart" in (Old) Dutch, and it means "black".

The Lydian kingdom also bordered the Black Sea or "Zwarte Zee" in Dutch.

I have cracked my mind about why in God's name the OLB tried to portray its "Lydians" as black Africans.

I remember I have quoted from Hebrew sources about the confusion between "Lydia" and "Libya".

The OLB is the ONLY source that calls North Africans "Lydians".



Something is not right here, and I am convinced this confusion was intended by those who created the OLB.

To me all these anachronisms and plays with etymology in the OLB were intended to lead us to what the creators wanted us to understand: ....


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Otharus]

As we have noticed several times, Ottema made quite a few mistakes transcribing and translating the OLB.

In the following example, he left out a fragment, probably by mistake.
It could have been on purpose, as it is a good example of a fragment that the ruling elite of his time would not have liked, for obvious reasons.

Page 22, laws for kings and wars #8.

Original:


Transcription Ottema (1876):


Translation Ottema (1876):
Geen koning mag langer dan drie jaren koning blijven,
opdat hij niet bestendig moge worden.

Translation Sandbach (1876):
No king may be in office more than three years,
in order that the office may not be permanent.

Translation Raubenheimer (2011):
No king may remain king for longer than three years
lest he becomes entrenched.

New transcription:
ANNEN KÉNING NE MÉI NAVT NI LÔNGER AS THRÉ JÉR KÉNING BILÍWA.
TILTHJU HI NAVT BIKLÍWA NE MÉI VSA FRYDOM TO SKADANE.

Translation Jensma (2006):
Een koning mag niet langer dan drie jaar koning blijven,
omdat hij niet beklijven mag tot schade van onze vrijheid.

Translation of underlined part:
damaging our freedom

[The Puzzler]

I know there's been quite a few Juul Wheels posted but here's another one - this is from a Basque cemetery, showing some older symbols of their culture, I couldn't help but notice the 6 spoked wheel, also in the correct direction.


http://en.wikipedia....asque_mythology

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 March 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 26 March 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....asque_mythology

I'm fascinated by something I read on that Basque wiki-page:

Mythological creatures and characters
[...]
Erge is an evil spirit that takes men's lives.
[...]

In Dutch and (old-) Frisian, "erg" or "arg" (OLB: "ÀRG") means bad or evil.

"Erge" can literally be translated as "evil one".

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 26 March 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'm fascinated by something I read on that Basque wiki-page:

Mythological creatures and characters
[...]
Erge is an evil spirit that takes men's lives.
[...]

In Dutch and (old-) Frisian, "erg" or "arg" (OLB: "ÀRG") means bad or evil.

"Erge" can literally be translated as "evil one".

Yes, that is unusual.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arg
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/erg

I want to investigate this word more tomorrow.

It actually reminds of a bogie man, which almost could be b-erge man that became bogie/boogie man.

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 March 2012 - 02:56 PM.