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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#10846    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postlilthor, on 28 March 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

Me too.  I was terrified to be grabbed and plunked down on their huge pounding knees while they muttered incantations:

“rea rea ranka”
“hestin hut da blanka”
“tom pron fria”
“sia litta pia”
“tom pron fretta”
“Whoop ala [lilthor]”

*shudder*

LOL! I wasn't exactly sitting on their knees... and they were most certainly not singing nursery rhimes at the time, hahaha !!!

http://www.mamalisa....ea-rhea-runkin/


#10847    lilthor

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostOtharus, on 28 March 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Cute.

From "hestin" (horse), I guess that it is Icelandic.

Is it translatable?

Particularly interested in "tom pron fria".

Yes, (thanks to this thread) "tom pron fria" caught my eye as well.

My best guess as to the meaning is it's a nursery rhyme about a young man who goes off on a horse to make a proposal and gets thrown off.

This version I found is closest to what I remember, but probably suffers from being a couple of generations removed from its original form.

I was hoping someone here could translate!


#10848    lilthor

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

LOL! I wasn't exactly sitting on their knees... and they were most certainly not singing nursery rhimes at the time, hahaha !!!

http://www.mamalisa....ea-rhea-runkin/

Ahhh...that WOULD be different from my encounter!


#10849    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 07:54 AM

View Postlilthor, on 28 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

My best guess as to the meaning is it's a nursery rhyme about a young man who goes off on a horse to make a proposal and gets thrown off.
...
I was hoping someone here could translate!
The only thing that I see (with the help of your hint) is that “sia litta pia” probably means "to see little Pia".


#10850    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:27 AM

View PostKnul, on 28 March 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

As for my age, I do not yet belong to the ALDAFON  DЄGUM - Ouden van Dagen (MS 102, r. 23)
I did not say you are old (age is relative anyway; I'm a quart-century younger than you, and there are people who are a quart-century older than you).

What I said is that "someone of your age should leave a better example" (as should people of my age).

Quote

ALDA FON DЄGUM - Ouden van Dagen (MS 102, r. 23),
which in your opinion is Oldfrisian,
but in my opinion modern Dutch.

If you don't agree please show me an Oldfrisian text for this.
In my opinion, the expression could be Oldfrisian.
It is obvious that the accepted sources we have, will not give a complete record of all old words and expressions.

In your opinion it is modern Dutch only.
You cannot imagine that it is older, because there is no proof for that.

You ask me to prove that it is old, but can you prove that it is not?

No, you cannot.

Therefore, the argument that OLB has to be fake, because the language would be too modern, is not very strong.

The expression is actually known from Old-Greek "Παλαιός Ημερών", usually translated as "ancient of days", referring to God in the Aramaic tradition (reminds me of WR-ALDA: "over-old one"), but it just means "old of days" (Dutch: "oude van dagen", Oldfrisian "ALDA FON DÉGUM").

We may have gotten it from the Greeks, or vice versa.

Who knows?

Not you, not me.

Edited by Otharus, 29 March 2012 - 08:59 AM.


#10851    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:53 AM

View PostKnul, on 28 March 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

I told you that it is known to be Oldfrisian and gave Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum as a source.
Yet you claim, that it is not in the dictionaries.
Here is a next source: Koebler [...]
Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum is from 1874, and Köbler's Altfriesisches Wörterbuch is from 2003.

My point was (and is) that the word "TÉJA" was not to be found in any Oldfrisian dictionary, when OLB was supposed to have been concocted (that is, before 1867).

Surely, we can find words that are related (I am finding more already), but that is a different story.

My main question is this:

1) Is OLB merely based on knowledge and phantasies that were available in the mid-19th century,

or:

2) Does OLB contain information that can help our current knowledge about language (and history) evolve?

My answer:
1) No, it went way too much against the 19th C. paradigm
2) YES!

Edited by Otharus, 29 March 2012 - 09:32 AM.


#10852    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:19 AM

View PostOtharus, on 27 March 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Posted Image
These varieties can be added on the right side:

τείνω (teino) - greek (origin of tendon and tension!)
to tow - english
tegne - danish, norwegian
ziehen - german
tijgen - (oldfashioned) dutch (past tense: toog, getogen)
tiigje, tije, tsjen - frisian

Oldflemmish, -frisian, -dutch, -german:
tiën, thien, tijen, tia(n), tion, tien, tyen, tihen, tigen, ziohan, zihen

The number of varieties and meanings of this word indicate a very old age.

Edited by Otharus, 29 March 2012 - 09:34 AM.


#10853    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:47 AM

You might want to read this too (and I know you already added the word to the picture above):

http://www.etymologi...woord/voltooien (to complete, to finish)

"tooien" is then used in the meaning of 'to make'.

Scroll down on that page:
Old Norse:  tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja

TEJA could simply be a borrowing from Old Norse. Damn Vikings again.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 March 2012 - 09:55 AM.


#10854    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

You might want to read this too (and I know you already added the word to the picture above):

http://www.etymologi...woord/voltooien (to complete, to finish)

"tooien" is then used in the meaning of 'to make'.

Scroll down on that page:
Old Norse:  tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja

TEJA could simply be a borrowing from Old Norse.
Thanks, that is interesting, but I think you read to fast:

"De combinatie met on. tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja “helpen” en verder met de woordfamilie van teug (-tooien < *tauchianan) is te verwerpen."

("The combination with Oldnorse  tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja "to help" and further with the word-family of teug (-tooien < *tauchianan) should be rejected.")

Edited by Otharus, 29 March 2012 - 10:02 AM.


#10855    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:03 AM

View PostOtharus, on 29 March 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Thanks, that is interesting, but I think you read to fast:

"De combinatie met on. tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja “helpen” en verder met de woordfamilie van teug (-tooien < *tauchianan) is te verwerpen."

("The combination with Oldnorse  tø̂ja, tŷja, fulltŷja "to help" and further with the word-family of teug (-tooien < *tauchianan) should be rejected.")

That's only when you try to explain "voltooien" (to complete, to finish).

I'll check the online Old Norse dictionary.

+++++++++

EDIT:

helfen (= to help),
bei-n-a, bir-g-ja, dug-a, ef-n-a (1), flyt-ja, fræ-a, g-rei-OE-a, hãg-ja, hjal-p-a,
lÆk-n-a, rei-f-a (2), sinn-a (1), tjõ (2), tjæ-a, t‘-ja (3), tã-ja (1), vei-t-a (1), viOE-
hjalp-a

http://www.koeblerge...buch/nhd-an.pdf

Some letters do not show up properly.

This is better:

Attached File  TEJA.jpg   15.26K   6 downloads
.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 March 2012 - 10:13 AM.


#10856    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:25 AM

View PostOtharus, on 26 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

But ofcourse!!!

Dutch: "touw" = rope

Oldfrisian (Hettema dictionary, 1832):

"Tawa, taauje, bereiden, maken, touwen." (= prepare, make)
OLB versions of "tawa", "touwen" (to make, create, prepare), only used in the context of making laws, rules, morals (ÉWA, SETMA):

[021/24]
HÍR FOLGATH THA ÉWA THÉR THÉR.UT TAVLIKT SEND

[025/07]
SAHWERSA THÉR ÉWA VRWROCHT WRDE. JEFA NÉJA SETMA TAVLIKT

[031/07]
THA ÉWA THÉR THÉRNÉI TAVLIKT SEND

[033/02]
IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN HWÉRVR NÉN ÉWA TAVLIKT SEND

[098/31]
THÉR NE SEND NÉN GODE SETMA JEFTHA HJA MOTON THÉR NÉI TAVLIKT WÉSA

[99/08]
THA ÉWA THÉR HJU TAVLIKT HETH


#10857    Otharus

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostOtharus, on 29 March 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

OLB versions of "tawa", "touwen" (to make, create, prepare), only used in the context of making laws, rules, morals (ÉWA, SETMA)
LOL!!!!!

This is how Doctor Jensma (2006) explained "TAVLIKT" (p.113):

"van toeflikken, samenflikken = samenflansen, samenlappen; grappig bedoeld"
("from to-flick, flick-together = fudge, botch, patch, jumble; meant to be funny")

Posted Image

Very funny indeed, Professor.

Edited by Otharus, 29 March 2012 - 10:48 AM.


#10858    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:40 AM

Attached File  TAVLIK.jpg   69.03K   4 downloads

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-T.pdf

taulik / tawalik / thawlik: maked, set.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 March 2012 - 10:54 AM.


#10859    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostOtharus, on 29 March 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

LOL!!!!!

This is how Doctor Jensma (2006) explained "TAVLIKT" (p.113):

"van toeflikken, samenflikken = samenflansen, samenlappen; grappig bedoeld"
("from to-flick, flick-together = fudge, botch, patch, jumble; meant to be funny")

Very funny indeed, Goffe.


And what do you think of this for TAVLIKT:

Dutch: TOELICHTEN : explain, illustrate, elucidate, exemplify

TAVLIKT >> TOE(ge)LICHT.


+++++++++

EDIT:

As you will have read, there is a TAVLIK in the Old Frisian dictionary: taulik / tawalik / thawlik, and it means 'maked, set'.

BUT... without a -T- at the end!!!

That is what someone with a Dutch (=Hollandish) background would do...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 March 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#10860    Knul

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

Concept translation. see: http://rodinbook.nl/olbjongsma.html

CHAPTER VII.
Halbertsma's Lexicon Frisicum.
Early in Halbertsma the plan seems to have occurred to a dictionary of Fries to put together. Convinced of the importance of the Frisian language, as creation of a free and independent people, that his soul had expressed; convinced also of its importance to the science of language, especially for comparison and etymology, he had in 1829 already far implements this plan, given that he could write that, a Latijnsch dictionary hetFriesch which is in the alleged faults of the English, French and Dutch etymologisten will endeavor to provide, in the inlassching a hundred words waiting to (z) ine maatstafje completed to be called.'' 1)
Are,'' ardent desire and hope was that he was five years in this dictionary along with the 3rd part of the Tribute to Gysbert Japiks would end, but he does this wish 'with a heart full of care and melancholy "After all,, hundreds of human design, on the scale of five and twenty years were taken, approached scarcely one to his accomplishment.'' 2). He had a premonition that this might be the lot could be
[87]
these two works? The 3rd part of the tribute was never issued, although in 1830 he wrote to Jacob Grimm, he was busy making ready for the press, and what the Lexicon is concerned, the thousand columns, which were printed when death wegriep him from his work, include only the vocabulary from A to Feer.
Meanwhile he had in this work not lacking incentive. His friend Bosworth in 't particularly repeatedly urges him to not be,'' magnum opus to give and not to wait until it is perfect, because it will never appear. In a letter. March 17, 1838, he even writes that Friesland, the Friesian Encyclopedia of Europe yes Halbertsma demands. He has more than Friesland Johnson for England, Germany and Adelung for Kiliaen for Holland. However, the time being there is nothing of the expense and twenty-two years later, in 1860, also insists Prof. M. de Vries is again strongly, that his dictionary Halbertsma soon 't will give light. 1)
What it is due, that he has delayed so long in publishing? Eekhoff yeast, that,, maatstafje becoming a'',,'' had become standard, "so great that he was long doubted, whether he does that job was up.'' Had Halbertsma own preface to the published section written, he would perhaps have told us the reason. We rely on what his son Dr. Tjalling Halbertsma based on conversations with his father and his own considerations written by him in the preface says, it appears that at least for the first part Eekhoffs guess is correct. Halbertsma wanted all words and all modes of speech, where and when used by Frisians, in his Lexicon together. So not only the words of the Land-Fries, but also those which belong to
[88]
your the North Frisian and East Frisian dialects. Moreover, he wanted all the words, as far as possible, the etymology determine and compare them with corresponding in related languages. Was this in itself already a very large task, for the Land-Friesian tijdroovende came to this the difficulty that he many words from the mouth of the people had opteekenen. Especially when he had left Friesland and was living in Deventer, making him only a few weeks per year in this work could give his material grew very slowly. The help of his brothers and Tjalling Eeltje and some friends, who took office notes made for him, was the object of his stay outside Friesland only partially neutralize. For the Old, North and East Friesian was not this difficulty. Of this, the material already collected, so that he no longer in his Lexicon to handle. The only dictionary, however, that van 't Land-Fries, and this was on Gysbert Japiks Epkema's Lexicon, which, however, only a very small part of the vast field was edited. Yet Dr. doubt. Tjalling Halbertsma have no, or his father had his work complete, as he began early to make it ready for the press. Miscellaneous other scientific work and a busy correspondence were the reason that this already but was delayed. When he finally began, it was the chance to accomplish even quite large, he had offered him to accept help. Type in Office for Halbertsma, that he all the help, even those of his own son, stubbornly refused.
Although he causes above what would become his life's work, not complete, it is also the area appeared to be regarded as the main fruit of his Frisian Studies.
As to the etymology he has given a large place, it is not unserviceable to determine by whom and how he practiced this science will see. To a good etymoloog to be, it is not enough linguistic scholar being; 'scholarship is only the instrument, there is also requisite to genius with this instrument werken.Indien somewhere in the etymology comes to pass analogies to detect distant relations with a view to grasp, and the extreme ends, between which ordinary minds no regular correlation, together with the knots. Now this is the work of genius. " 1)
On the other hand, he criticizes those etymologists who "tremendous transitions of meaning'' assumption, which can not be explained, under the pretext of himself so clear, that no account of need data kept withthe,'' while the real reason is that, the agreement only consented and dark for (their) mind floats and (they) in the maze no sharp signed path (see) to the point of entry to that of the output to come. " Self contrast he has always tried to find that path. ,, As much as possible,'' he says,,, I by no few step beaten. I most stepped forward foot by foot, until I shall base the award of the said word had reached. I've known me all language branches in estimates made, and that meanings of the word uitgekipt, as so many links a chain of meanings formed, leading to the theme to the requested word .... The significance is the form of the word at allernaauwste connected, and while I'm the links of a chain of meanings tied together, at the same time I pointed out earlier forms from which the present has sprung .... In a word, my goal has always been focused there, that my word statements in both respects
[90]
not only experimentally (empirically), but also would be scientific. ' 1)
Although it is undeniable that Halbertsma himself on the slippery ground of etymology, Festen nicht zur method erhoben hat, "2) he was still his predecessors and most of his contemporaries to our country so far ahead that it does not apply the accusation of Jonckbloet:, who has stuck to our word distraction that band (of historical comparison) disturbed, so one might exempts ten Kate.'' 3)
As already noted above, he wanted to give a Lexicon, in which no word was missing, the words'' not indecent. The position that he occupies in relation to these words, follows immediately from linguistics and what we are top of his personality which names. In a letter to Jacob Grimm 4) the. July 3, 1858, he expresses his disapproval about out there that Prof.. de Vries, who at the head of the operation of the Dutch Lexicon is,'' no other words will allow, then in the respectable world calibrated. 5) If we get over the language of the salons, and just unnatural. It will certainly be as beautiful as the crinoline, but a mirror of people's life will not be. " 6) Halbertsma this is so much a loss, that he "two very capable young man (has) persuaded a dictionary of the Dutch voces obscoenae to do." 7)
[91]
Halbertsma belonged in his time, undoubtedly one of the best connoisseurs of the Frisian in all its shades and as such he was the right man to Frisian dictionary to write. That he nevertheless in many respects fallen short in this work is in large part due to the lack of certain characteristics that a lexicographer ought to adorn. His lack of accuracy, to system, his contempt for all kinds of detail work to have the value of his work great prejudice and usability of it is greatly reduced. To what concerns this has led, may appear in more detail below.
1. One of the most prominent is that Halbertsma translation and explanation of words has exclusive use of Latin. This was mainly because he and his Lexicon is primarily a scientific purpose intended. 1) For example, foreign scholars would still the Dutch language have caused a major inconvenience and have formed a barrier to use and appreciate his work. With little difficulty he had also the great mass of the Frisians, who did not understand Latin, can be satisfied by the meaning behind each word in the Netherlands to give, as appears from the MSS. A and B were originally intended.
With Eekhoff is regrettable that, by failing to do so, showed 'not heeding the great development of the desire for language study, which is, especially on his way, in Friesland itself among the unlearned has revealed, and what he ought to satisfy, not the head bumping. " 2)
Dr. Tjalling Halbertsma regrets the reason for the use of Latin not only because this language inevitably made many descriptions, but especially (consider in this context Bopp) 1) to the many errors against the,, Latinitas'' which his father , by studying more with the "barbaric'' than classical Latin came in contact made!
2. A second objection and a that a lexicographer is unforgivable, is the lack of system in more ways than one, which Halbertsma's work demonstrates.
A. In the first place, this out in the placement of the words. The basis for the division he seems to have taken the etymologischen consistency. The root word is given in capital letters and underneath in small letters follow the distractions and the compositions. In column 184, we find for example
Barne, eg. n et a., ardere, urere and below: Barner, Barnich, off-Barne, for-Barne, yn-Barne, Barne-oan, on-Barne, Barne-ut, barn wood, baernd-koarn, barnde- man-baern stien, barnde-wyn, Branje (eg n. et. a ardere, urere), burn (incendium), burn (instrumentum ignis), burn (gladius), fire, Branje (Alimentum foci), burn -byt, burn, letter, fire Dolch, gjirg burn, burn, hake, brant-hleerda, Izer burn, burn mark, burn merkje, nettel burners, fire-ries, burn, nij, brond-rad -gold, morth-fire, night fire, branich, braning, burner (incendiarius), burner (Major et cacabus rudior).
This rather long list does not contain all the words, which Barne related. Column 484 is BRANARK given, including in small letters: fire-fos, burning rod, burner guard, production planning. It is an example of many.
b. Sometimes a diversion only below ground word, sometimes separately and then again in capital letters. Thus, we find AFBARNE in column 31 and afbarne in column 185 under Barne; AFBINE in column 32 and Afbine in column 307; AFBREKKE in column 32, afbrekke in column 503; AFBOYE in column 32, afbuoye in column 542; AFBRINGE in column 33, oafbringe in column 517; AFDELE in column 33, oaddele in column 644; AFDIJE in column 33, afdije in column 650, etc.
In contrast, AFBIDDE or in column 32, are not covered by prayed (241 column data, AFBODJE or in column 32, are not covered by BODJE (column 422); AFBOUWE or in column 32, are not covered by BOUWJE (column 475); AFBORNE or in column 32, not Boarne (column 410). also be AFBRUGJE, AFDOLLE, AFDRAGE, AFDRAYE only mentioned once.
c. Lack of system exhibits Halbertsma, if he also has the same expression for the same word and not the same translation and explanation.
Cf. example AFBARNE (column 31), ex. n et a., comburere, comburi Totus Quantus; the valet aedificiis, mill Dinis, caet. with afbarne (column 185), eg. n. comburi Totus quantum. It is afbarnd hus.
AFBINE (column 32), ex. a fune adstricto demere, F. you. ofbine. The rams afbine, arietes fune adstricto cast strange, with afbine (column 307), eg. a dissolvere. Di redens afbine, dissolvere grallas glaciales a pedibus; on-bine, contraindications, adstringere. Di rams afbine, arietum testes filo canabino piceo vehementer adstringere arescant et ut tandem decidant.
Cf. In this respect, the two other words, referred to under b.
d. That his spelling is not a measure of fasting established, the above examples suffice.
e. Related words from other languages ​​are now
[94]
look at the root word given, then a distraction, sometimes both, and not always with the same completeness.
Example in column I s.v. A. Ee, F. v. aqua, Guatizalema we find them not, but in column 2 sv alond, n. F. v. insula, where Goth. ahwa, Sax. v. aha, LSL. a, F. v. a, ee, Ags. Others, Fr. he stated.
Twice we find them, although not as extensively: in column 10 sv AE, EA, adv, semper, unquam, Ags. ava, semper, contracted a, protinus; Ang. ay, and semper in column 819 s.v. EA unquam, Ags. aa, a, ae supra p. 10, Ang. ay, semper, Gr. aei, AEol. ai, Sax. v. IEO, io, Ie v. ie, Ags. geo, unquam.
Cf. Also AFALDJE (column 31), and aldje (column 82); AFBARNE (column 31), and Barne (column 184); AFBREKKE (column 32), and BREKA (column 501); AFBIDDE (column 32), and prayed (column 241), AFBINE (column 32) and turbine (column 302). AFDRIUWE (column 33), and Driva (column 748).
f. The construction of individual articles does not testify to a fixed plan. The related words example are sometimes at the beginning, sometimes in the middle, at the end sometimes given. The article on AF (column 27 and vlgg.) Is continued in column 53 at AFWRINGE.
3. Besides unsystematic Halbertsma's work, we also noting that he is in naming of related words from other languages ​​is not so fully as he might have been. Although he, like his son in the preface notes, except Nederlandsche mainly Anglo-Saxon and English words for comparison had wanted to argue, so as a result of the close relationship of these languages ​​with the Friesian to prove, show the following examples, all from the first two columns taken , however, that he easily could cite more material.