11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 April 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be nice if a really dark-blue area showed in the Punjab?

Btw, this is the link to the post you quoted:

http://www.eupedia.c...s-and-Galatians

.

Oops, I have so many pages open, sorry.

Yes, it would be, maybe they are not U106 but another connected R1b line that developed.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 April 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Oops, I have so many pages open, sorry.

Yes, it would be, maybe they are not U106 but another connected R1b line that developed.

THe OLB claims the "Geertmen" lived there for 1200 years, up until Alexander the Great invaded their territory in the Punjab.

If the story is true, genetic evidence should be clear.

[Abramelin]

Let's make it a separate post:

Menno, can you explain the difference between your scan of page 143 http://www.rodinbook...-web-xlarge.jpg and the photo of page 143 http://images.tresoa...hp?p=145&pm=212 ?

The "Tresoar" page showing photos of every page of the OLB is here:

http://www.oeralinda...boek/index.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 April 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 April 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Let's make it a separate post:

Menno, can you explain the difference between your scan of page 143 http://www.rodinbook...-web-xlarge.jpg and the photo of page 143 http://images.tresoa...hp?p=145&pm=212 ?

The "Tresoar" page showing photos of every page of the OLB is here:

http://www.oeralinda...boek/index.html

.

I can, if you look at the Tresoar page, you see, that the upper left side of the page misses a corner, which does not show on the black and white scans (taken from Jensma). You see part of the underlying page in that corner. I have been puzzling, which two letters are missing before ...MIN, but I have not found it, nor did Ottema.Maybe, you have an idea ?

Edited by Knul, 09 April 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

You ask, because where you put the dots "...MIN ЄÐLA HÆVON IN ÆFTER ÐIT BOK SKR"   a piece of the paper, top-left, has been torn off.

First the 'official' text, with Sandbach's translation:

Thet skrift fon konerêd.

Min êthla haevon in aefter thit bok skrêven. Thit wil ik boppa ella dva, vmbe thaet er in min stât nên burch ovir is, hwêrin tha bêrtnesa vp skrêven wrde lik to fâra.

THE WRITING OF KONERÊD.

My forefathers have written this book in succession. I will do this, the more because there exists no longer in my state any citadel on which events are inscribed as used to be the case.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bs



It already starts wrong: "êthla" doesn't mean 'forefathers', it means nobles (or 'edelen' in Dutch):


ethe-l-e 10, afries., Adj.: nhd. edel, adlig, vollbürtig, frei, vortrefflich; ne. noble,
freeborn; ÜG.: lat. næbilis L 22; Vw.: s. un-; Hw.: vgl. ae. Ïþele, as. ethili*, ahd.
edili (2); Q.: L 22; E.: germ. *aþala-, *aþalaz, *aþalja-, *aþaljaz, Adj., von
vornehmem Geschlecht, von Adel, angestammt; germ. *aþilu-, *aþiluz, Adj., von
vornehmem Geschlecht, von Adel, angestammt; vgl. idg. *Àtos, *atta, Sb., Vater,
Mutter (F.) (1), Pokorny 71, EWAhd 1, 48; W.: nfries. edel, eel, adj., edel, adlig;
L.: Hh 22b, Rh 720a

ethe-l-e, afries., M., N.: Vw.: s. ethe-l (1)

ethe-l-hê-d 11, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Adel (M.) (1), Schönheit; ne. nobility,
beauty; Hw.: vgl. mnd. edelhêit, mnl. edelheit, mhd. edelheit; Q.: AA 172; E.: s.

ethe-l-e, *hê-d; W.: nfries. adelheyt; L.: Hh 22a, Rh 720b, AA 172

The translation of the sentence would then start with "My nobles .... "

Doesn't sound right, so "MIN" is the end, the last 3 letters of another word, or so it seems, and not a word in itself.

.

I could read: AK MIN ETHLA - My parents too.   Ethla is a general term for nobles, forefathers, parents.

Edited by Knul, 09 April 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Knul]

We haven't much discussed style in this thread, but did you notice, that the chapter on the JUTTAR has a special style effect on N- (verbs contracted with NE) different from the rest of the OLB. It looks like those JUTTAR were stambling. Another nice example is the letter of RIKA, which could be compared with a letter of the wife of Halbertsma to Halbertsma.The letter looks like letters of illiterate persons who write an exaggerated official letter to the municipal authorities. Similarly I found a different style in chapters on the Seven Seelands, using MYK = made, which is the dialect of Walcheren as Ottema stated too. All this shows the literary quality of the OLB, which has not yet been investigated.According to me there are more different styles in the OLB, resulting in different wordings and different spellings. Please let me know, if you come across such pecularities.

Edited by Knul, 09 April 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I can, if you look at the Tresoar page, you see, that the upper left side of the page misses a corner, which does not show on the black and white scans (taken from Jensma). You see part of the underlying page in that corner. I have been puzzling, which two letters are missing before ...MIN, but I have not found it, nor did Ottema.Maybe, you have an idea ?

OK, so you got them from Jensma. Did he make his own scans of the manuscript?

Still, it is kind of weird that Tresoar made photos of the pages the way they did. Well, sloppy is the word here.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 April 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I could read: AK MIN ETHLA - My parents too.   Ethla is a general term for nobles, forefathers, parents.

You are right: there isn't much of a choice to add letters in front of MIN because the max is 2 plus a space or 3 letters connected to MIN, without a space): AK plus a space would fit quite right, and wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence at all.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 09 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

We haven't much discussed style in this thread, but did you notice, that the chapter on the JUTTAR has a special style effect on N- (verbs contracted with NE) different from the rest of the OLB. It looks like those JUTTAR were stambling. Another nice example is the letter of RIKA, which could be compared with a letter of the wife of Halbertsma to Halbertsma.The letter looks like letters of illiterate persons who write an exaggerated official letter to the municipal authorities. Similarly I found a different style in chapters on the Seven Seelands, using MYK = made, which is the dialect of Walcheren as Ottema stated too. All this shows the literary quality of the OLB, which has not yet been investigated.According to me there are more different styles in the OLB, resulting in different wordings and different spellings. Please let me know, if you come across such pecularities.

Which chapter about the Juttar do you mean?

This one:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.
THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

Or this one:

Nv wil ik vr Friso skriva.
NOW I WILL WRITE ABOUT FRISO.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bt ?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 April 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 April 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

You are right: there isn't much of a choice to add letters in front of MIN because the max is 2 plus a space or 3 letters connected to MIN, without a space): AK plus a space would fit quite right, and wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence at all.

Is this ak min in the OLB at all?

I saw BIMIN in the OLB text, I havent had a chance to see exactly what it means though yet.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 09 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

... South- and West-Mediterranean languages and traditions.

ofcourse I ment East, as in Middle-East.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 09 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

All this shows the literary quality of the OLB, which has not yet been investigated.
According to me there are more different styles in the OLB, resulting in different wordings and different spellings.
Please let me know, if you come across such pecularities.

I agree.
Very good point.
One of the things I noticed, is a difference in the average length of sentences (and parts of sentences), between some of the different texts.

[Otharus]

Knul, on 09 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Please let me know, if you come across such pecularities.

Sometimes the tildes ( ~ ~ ~ ) are used to fill out space (example p.7,8), somtimes to create reading brakes (example p.83,84).

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 10 April 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Is this ak min in the OLB at all?

I saw BIMIN in the OLB text, I havent had a chance to see exactly what it means though yet.

As I said, every page of the OLB starts at the upper lefthand corner, so there is room for 3 letters or 2 letters and a space. So it could not be BIMIN, I think.

"AK MIN" means nothing else but "Also my". It doesn't have to show up elsewhere in the OLB, but it seems to be a normal combination of words.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 10 April 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I agree.
Very good point.
One of the things I noticed, is a difference in the average length of sentences (and parts of sentences), between some of the different texts.

THe OLB is supposed to be a family chronicle, so yes: different people added text during different ages using their own words and in their own style.