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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#11026    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:36 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 12 April 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

ka shimeer = water desicate

drying up of the water

it probably was an extraordinary or rare thing to happen in the way it did.

Land desicated from water, in fact, is the basis to all Primordial Mound myths. The mound of land appears from the water as it dries up.

--------------

According to folk etymology, the name "Kashmir" means "desiccated land" (from the Sanskrit: Ka = water and shimeera = desiccate). In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the mid-12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. According to Hindu mythology, the lake was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura, which has been identified with Kaspapyros of Hecataeus (apud Stephanus of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44).[1] Kashmir is also believed to be the country meant by Ptolemy's Kaspeiria.[2]

Cashmere is an archaic spelling of Kashmir, and in some countries it is still spelled this way.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Kashmir

I think you should have added this part also:

As a result of the hero's actions, the people named the valley as "Kashyap-Mar", meaning abode of Kashyap, and "Kashyap-Pura", meaning city of Kashyap, in Sanskrit. The name "Kashmir," in Sanskrit, implies land desiccated from water: "ka" (the water) and shimeera (to desiccate). The ancient Greeks began referring to the region as "Kasperia".

http://en.wikipedia....shmir#Etymology

Combine that with what you quoted:

Kashyapa-pura, which has been identified with Kaspapyros of Hecataeus (apud Stephanus of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44).[1] Kashmir is also believed to be the country meant by Ptolemy's Kaspeiria.

...and you might get the idea that the oldest and original name was something like "Kashappera".
"Kashmir" is then a later name that evolved from the original name, and it had a nice and fitting Sanskrit etymology with which to explain this later name.


#11027    Knul

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:38 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

I think you should have added this part also:

As a result of the hero's actions, the people named the valley as "Kashyap-Mar", meaning abode of Kashyap, and "Kashyap-Pura", meaning city of Kashyap, in Sanskrit. The name "Kashmir," in Sanskrit, implies land desiccated from water: "ka" (the water) and shimeera (to desiccate). The ancient Greeks began referring to the region as "Kasperia".

http://en.wikipedia....shmir#Etymology

Combine that with what you quoted:

Kashyapa-pura, which has been identified with Kaspapyros of Hecataeus (apud Stephanus of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44).[1] Kashmir is also believed to be the country meant by Ptolemy's Kaspeiria.

...and you might get the idea that the oldest and original name was something like "Kashappera".
"Kashmir" is then a later name that evolved from the original name, and it had a nice and fitting Sanskrit etymology with which to explain this later name.


Interesting. This comes close to an explanation of the name. The Sanskrit word ka could also be recognised in Kaspian sea.


#11028    Knul

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:49 AM

View PostKnul, on 11 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Otharus, you noticed that some parts of the OLB has shorter sentences or parts of sentences, so more compact than others. This would be interesting. In fact each book, letter, note, last will, etc. should have its own profile with differences in subject, style, wording, length of sentences, grammar, spelling etc.  as they are supposed to have been written by different persons (males, females, high rank, lower rank) and in different times. It has been mentioned, that the end of the book differs in this respect from the first books, but the matter has not been studied yet. Let's find out.


If you look at the letter of the geertman Ljudgert (MS 163 r. 10 - MS 168 r. 19) you find different words (PRESTAR in stead of PRESTERA) and spellings OLLERWECHS in stead of ALLERWEIKES, etc., showing elements of the Groningian* dialect. like a = oa.

*I have stated before that the GEERTMANNA were no GERMANS, but GRONINGIANS, the city GRENE-GA  (GA - gouw) founded by GEERT. The people derived their name from CARMANIA in the PUNJAB.



MS 163 r. 3 may refer to: HALBERTSMA,J. H., Twigen uwt ien âlde stamme. Utjown troch Dr. E. Halbertsma meioanteikeningen fen J. H. Halbertsma. J. de Lange, Dimter, 1840.

Edited by Knul, 12 April 2012 - 08:54 AM.


#11029    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:30 AM

View PostKnul, on 12 April 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Interesting. This comes close to an explanation of the name. The Sanskrit word ka could also be recognised in Kaspian sea.

There is more...

From the OLB:

HAIL TO ALL TRUE FRISIANS

(...)

Sixteen hundred years ago, Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “rare.” There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest.

(...)

His first name was Jes-us (pronounced: Yes-us), but the priests, who hated him, called him Fo, that is, false; the people called him Kris-en, that is, shepherd; and his Frisian friend called him Bûda, because he had in his head a treasure of wisdom, and in his heart a treasure of love
.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#br


As you will know, every supporter of the OLB stresses the fact that this Jes-us cannot be Jesus Christ because he lived more than 2000 years after Jes-us.

But read about Jesus in Kashmir, Srinagar:

(...)

The word yuz means leader. Thus, Yuz Asaph became a common reference to Jesus as “leader of the healed.”

(...)

Other records and place names that relate to Jesus point to his presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Acts of Thomas describe the journey of Jesus and Thomas in Pakistan (then Taxila) at the court of King Gundafor in the 26th year of his rule, which would be about 47 CE
.

http://www.tombofjes...kashmir&catid=1

I have always been fascinated by this story.

So, according to a very ancient tradition, a "Yuz Asaph" lived in Kashmir, and many are convinced it was no one else but Jesus Christ.

And I hope you read the name of that city (or area) I already posted about days ago: Taxila (Texel < Texla < Texland?).

Some very creative minds have been at work here...


.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#11030    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

View PostKnul, on 07 April 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

I know, it is hard to find. Maybe it helps to find KRIS-EN - ÐÆT IS HERDER, which should be the same language (or again Volney). The names of Fot, Boedha and Krishna occur in Volney and I found, that Halbertsma might have used the Dutch translation of the book, but it is not on his booklist. It's the same book that occurs on the booklist of Cornelis over de Linden, both in French and Dutch. s. Volney, Aantekeningen p. 248 ad p. 140 (60). All agree that Krisna, Fot and Jezus have completely the same characteristics. It is associated with the occult religion of Mithra.

< CHOP >


KRIS-EN - ÐÆT IS HERDER
Kris-en - dat is herder
Kris-en - that is shepherd.


Jesus (Christ) was also known as the 'Shepherd', right?

Somehow I don't think using either Urdu, Tamil, Sanskrit, Old-Frisian, Hindi or whatever language, will give us a real translation of KASAMYR or KRIS-EN.

And maybe KRIS-EN is nothing but.... KRISTEN, or "Christian" (in Dutch: Christen).

kri-st-en
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-K.pdf

+++++++

Of course, the obvious similarity with "Krishna" has made many believe KRIS-EN = Krishna.

The name Krishna doesn't mean "shepherd", but he sure is associated with 'shepherds' or 'herders' :

Krishna is also known by various other names, epithets and titles, which reflect his many associations and attributes. Among the most common names are Mohan "enchanter of women or cowherdesses", Govinda, "finder of cows", or Gopala, "protector of cows", which refer to Krishna's childhood in Vraja.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2012 - 11:10 AM.


#11031    Otharus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

'shepherds' or 'herders'
cool... I never saw that before, although it's totally obvious:

shepherd = sheep-herd (dutch: schaap-herder)


#11032    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostKnul, on 12 April 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Interesting. This comes close to an explanation of the name. The Sanskrit word ka could also be recognised in Kaspian sea.
The word Caspian is derived from the name of the Caspi (Persian: کاسپی‎), ancient people who lived to the south-west of the sea in Transcaucasia.[20] Strabo wrote that "to the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared".[21] Moreover, the Caspian Gates, which is the name of a region in Tehran province of Iran, is another possible piece of evidence that they migrated to the south of the sea. The Iranian city Qazvin shares the root of its name with that of the sea. In fact, the traditional Islamic name for the sea itself is, Bahr al-Qazwin (Sea of Qazvin).[22]


In classical antiquity among Greeks and Persians it was called the Hyrcanian Ocean.[23] In Persian antiquity, as well as in modern Iran, it is known as the mazandaran sea (Persian: مازندران‎). Among Indians it was called Kashyap Sagar. In Turkic speaking countries it is known as the Khazar Sea. Old Russian sources call it the Khvalyn (Khvalynian) Sea (Хвалынское море /Хвалисское море) after the Khvalis, inhabitants of Khwarezmia. Ancient Arabic sources refer to as Baḥr Gilan (Arabic: بحر جیلان‎ - the Caspian/Gilan Sea).

Turkic languages use a consistent nomenclature that is different from the Indo-European languages above. For instance, in Turkmen, the name is Hazar deňizi, in Azeri, it's Xəzər dənizi, and in modern Turkish, it's Hazar denizi. In all these cases, the second word simply means "sea", and the first word refers to the historical Khazars who had a large empire based to the North of the Caspian Sea between the 7th and 10th centuries.


http://en.wikipedia....iki/Caspian_Sea

----------------------------------------------

Kashmir from Skt. Kashypamara "land of Kashyap," said to be the name of a renowned sage. Related: Kashmiri.
http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

As a result of the hero's actions, the people named the valley as "Kashyap-Mar", meaning abode of Kashyap, and "Kashyap-Pura", meaning city of Kashyap, in Sanskrit

Edited by The Puzzler, 12 April 2012 - 01:02 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#11033    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

LOL, I was about to respond to a post by RobJack007 or something (looked very on-topic but a bit cryptic), to discover his post (and a few others on this board) was deleted.

Damn, he had me fooled.


#11034    Otharus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:42 PM

No slave of another, nor of his ...?
(an unripe train of thoughts, but I can't wait to share some of it... more to come!)

Whether you believe that the OLB was concocted in the 19th century, or that is is authentic, the following is one of the key fragments, yet the existing translations are questionable:

[011/15]
THÉRA ALLÉNA MÉI IK AS FRY KÀNNA
THÉR NÉN SLÁF IS FON ÉN ÔTHER
NI FON SINE TOCHTA


[Ottema 1876, p.19]
hem alleen mag ik als vrij erkennen
die geen slaaf is van een ander
noch van zijne driften

[Jensma 2006, p.93]
die alleen kan ik als Fries [!] kennen
die geen slaaf is van een ander
noch van zijn hartstochten

[Sandbach 1876, p.19]
him only can I recognise as free
who is neither a slave to another
nor to himself [his ...?]


[Raubenheimer 2011, p.330]
him only can I recognise as free
who is neither a slave to another
nor to his own passions


[Wirth 1933, p.17]
nur den allein mag ich als freien anerkennen,
der kein Sklave ist eines anderen,
noch seiner eigenen Leidenschaften (=> passions)

##################################

This is what the pre-OLB Oldfrisian dictionaries say:

Wiarda (1786) under "thinzia" (to think):
Tocht = der Gedanke.
'Ende openberia da tochten der Herten' = und offenbare die Gedanken der Herzen
-> Thought (english)


Posted Image

=> According to Wiarda "tocht" is "thought", and "hartstocht" (passion) is actually "hearts-thought"!

Hettema (1832)

Tocht = gedachte => thought

Posted Image

Richthofen (1840)

tocht = zucht, tuchte => passion, discipline (dutch: tocht, tucht, zucht)
tochta = gedanke => thought (dutch: gedachte)

Posted Image

Edited by Otharus, 12 April 2012 - 04:16 PM.


#11035    Knul

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostOtharus, on 12 April 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

No slave of another, nor of his ...?
(an unripe train of thoughts, but I can't wait to share some of it... more to come!)

Whether you believe that the OLB was concocted in the 19th century, or that is is authentic, the following is one of the key fragments, yet the existing translations are questionable:

[011/15]
THÉRA ALLÉNA MÉI IK AS FRY KÀNNA
THÉR NÉN SLÁF IS FON ÉN ÔTHER
NI FON SINE TOCHTA


[Ottema 1876, p.19]
hem alleen mag ik als vrij erkennen
die geen slaaf is van een ander
noch van zijne driften

[Jensma 2006, p.93]
die alleen kan ik als Fries [!] kennen
die geen slaaf is van een ander
noch van zijn hartstochten

[Sandbach 1876, p.19]
him only can I recognise as free
who is neither a slave to another
nor to himself [his ...?]


[Raubenheimer 2011, p.330]
him only can I recognise as free
who is neither a slave to another
nor to his own passions


[Wirth 1933, p.17]
nur den allein mag ich als freien anerkennen,
der kein Sklave ist eines anderen,
noch seiner eigenen Leidenschaften (=> passions)

##################################

This is what the pre-OLB Oldfrisian dictionaries say:

Wiarda (1786) under "thinzia" (to think):
Tocht = der Gedanke.
'Ende openberia da tochten der Herten' = und offenbare die Gedanken der Herzen
-> Thought (english)


Posted Image

=> According to Wiarda "tocht" is "thought", and "hartstocht" (passion) is actually "hearts-thought"!

Hettema (1832)

Tocht = gedachte => thought

Posted Image

Richthofen (1840)

tocht = zucht, tuchte => passion, discipline (dutch: tocht, tucht, zucht)
tochta = gedanke => thought (dutch: gedachte)

Posted Image

I can add Koebler: thoch-t-a 8, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Gedächtnis, Gedanke; ne. memory, thought (N.); Hw.: s. for-a-thoch-t; vgl. an. þætti; Q.: H, S, W, E, AA 151; E.: s. thank-a; L.: Hh 111b, Rh 1089a, AA 150 .

So gedachte (tought) would be the best translation..


#11036    Knul

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is more...

From the OLB:

HAIL TO ALL TRUE FRISIANS

(...)

Sixteen hundred years ago, Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “rare.” There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest.

(...)

His first name was Jes-us (pronounced: Yes-us), but the priests, who hated him, called him Fo, that is, false; the people called him Kris-en, that is, shepherd; and his Frisian friend called him Bûda, because he had in his head a treasure of wisdom, and in his heart a treasure of love
.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#br


As you will know, every supporter of the OLB stresses the fact that this Jes-us cannot be Jesus Christ because he lived more than 2000 years after Jes-us.

But read about Jesus in Kashmir, Srinagar:

(...)

The word yuz means leader. Thus, Yuz Asaph became a common reference to Jesus as “leader of the healed.”

(...)

Other records and place names that relate to Jesus point to his presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Acts of Thomas describe the journey of Jesus and Thomas in Pakistan (then Taxila) at the court of King Gundafor in the 26th year of his rule, which would be about 47 CE
.

http://www.tombofjes...kashmir&catid=1

I have always been fascinated by this story.

So, according to a very ancient tradition, a "Yuz Asaph" lived in Kashmir, and many are convinced it was no one else but Jesus Christ.

And I hope you read the name of that city (or area) I already posted about days ago: Taxila (Texel < Texla < Texland?).

Some very creative minds have been at work here...


.

Hindos believe in reincarnation of their religious teachers (priests). So the author may have extraplolated to an earlier Christ with the same characteristics.


#11037    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostKnul, on 12 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Hindos believe in reincarnation of their religious teachers (priests). So the author may have extraplolated to an earlier Christ with the same characteristics.

I know they do, and the one witing the OLB must have known about it too.

No way hosay, this Jes-Us is no one else but the Jesus Christ we all know of.

There are too many coincidences...

You will remember the 'sermon' by Gosa? It's like reading the Bible.


#11038    Otharus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

A dilettante's attempt to make sense.

In modern Dutch, the word "tocht" can have different meanings:

- journey, trek, trip
- draught, draft, breeze
- lust to mate (copulate), mostly used for cows (Westfrisian dictionary)

As we saw, in Oldfrisian it could also mean:

- thought (noun; in the Westfrisian dialect the past tense of the verb 'to think' is "docht")
- passion (lust in general, still commonly used in "hartstocht")
- discipline ("tucht" in modern Dutch)

In the OLB, the word-root TOCHT appears 34 times, and varieties: THOCHT 2x, THOGT 1x => total 37 times.

In 8 of these 37 fragments, the meaning is obviously: journey, trek, trip

[004/32] MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM [...] WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA

[028/16] SIN THÉR VPPA TOCHT VMKUME SA MOTON HJARA NÉSTUN. HJARA DÉL ERVA

[053/12] UT THESSE TOCHTE IS THJU SKÉDNESE FON WODIN BERN

[073/32] HJU MACHTE FRYA UTTOCHTE

[085/23] THA GRÁTE FLÁTE WÉRE VPPEN FÉRE TOCHT ÚT

[121/31] THI TOCHT HLIP SVNDER FARDÉL TO.N.ENDE

[122/25] HI NE THVRADE SIN TOCHT NAVT VRFATA

[123/23] I SKILE JET.EN LITHGE TOCHT TO SINRA WILLE DVAN

In seven cases, it is used in the combination LIF-TOCHTA, meaning: victuals, provisions, food for during travelling. In these seven as well as the above eight, "tocht" would be derived from a word that we discussed recently; "tijgen" (past: toog, perfect: getogen).

The asparagus in me insists on listing these seven, before I continue.

[029/02] SAHWERSA EN MÉNTE EN FLÀTE TO RÉTH. MOTON THA RÉDAR NJVDA FÁRA BESTE LIF.TOCHTUN

[057/09] HIR SELLADON HJA ALLERHANNE LIF.TOCHTA

[080/06] BROCHTON HJA HJARA AJNE WÉPNE ÀND LIFTOCHTA WÉI

[080/13] THATET FORMA SKIP MITH LIFTOCHTA FONA KÁD FÁREN WAS

[125/03] FORTH GVNGON WI SALT-ÁTHA LIFTOCHTA ÀND WÉPNE FÁRA

[125/26] THÉR HINNE BROCHTON WI SINA SALT.ÁTHA ÁND LIFTOCHTA VVR

... to be continued (22 more to go).

Edited by Otharus, 12 April 2012 - 09:37 PM.


#11039    Otharus

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:33 PM

View PostKnul, on 12 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Hindos believe in reincarnation of their religious teachers (priests). So the author may have extraplolated to an earlier Christ with the same characteristics.
I have heard or read once or twice, that the main reason why many Nordics accepted Christianity eventually, is that they believed that Christ was just another reincarnation of Odin.

Most of the fairytales are simply recycled over and over again anyway (like birth on 25 december, virgin birth, etc. => see "Zeitgeist" movie).

Edited by Otharus, 12 April 2012 - 10:13 PM.


#11040    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:35 PM

What about "deugd" (which is a word that sounds very much like "tocht"), or 'virtue' in English?

Just adding.