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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#11506    Knul

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

You can also just leave the OLB "Sêkaempar" as it is, and not try to equate it with Sicambri. The Sicambri didn't live at the coasts at all; the "Sê" in Sêkaempar means "sea".

-

Btw, there is no Dutch word "Kemper". We write is as "camper", forgetting it means something totally unrelated in English, lol.

You may also regard it as a wonderful idea of the author of the OLB to equate the names of the adjacent tribes to names of ordinary people:  Angeli - hengelaars (fishermen), Sicambri - zeekampers (seawarriors) - Sturii - stuurlieden (booatsmen). It shows the literary quality of the OLB.


#11507    Abramelin

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostKnul, on 08 May 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

You may also regard it as a wonderful idea of the author of the OLB to equate the names of the adjacent tribes to names of ordinary people:  Angeli - hengelaars (fishermen), Sicambri - zeekampers (seawarriors) - Sturii - stuurlieden (booatsmen). It shows the literary quality of the OLB.

It shows cheap, or 'folk', etymology to me.


#11508    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:26 PM

About the OLB Aldland/Atland again... the next is from some fringe site, but it mentions something that is quite interesting:


Jurgen Spanuth's "Atlantis of the North" [5] mentions that the Eddas
call the northlands 'Atalland' (Thule 23.74) and that 'Atland, Adalland,
Oatland occur frequently in old records as names for districts in
various countries around the North Sea'
. He mentions an island just east
of Heligoland which was not fully submerged until the 14th century (AD)
and which was mentioned by monks in the 7th century as being dedicated
to the god Posite - Poseidon of Atlantis? This would tie in with the
judgment of the Frisian experts in the 1871 paper 're' Atland being off
the Danish coast.


http://saturniancosm.../21oera.htm.txt


#11509    Otharus

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 May 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

... that the Eddas call the northlands 'Atalland' (Thule 23.74) and that 'Atland, Adalland, Oatland occur frequently in old records as names for districts in various countries around the North Sea'.
Very interesting.

Something else ~

[131/28] THA LÉKA ÀND BRÉKA THÉR THA BROK.MANNA MITHBROCHT HÀVE


Could this word be related to the tribe-name "Bructeri"?

~ ~ ~


Bructeri

Germanic tribe; uncertain etymology of the name; they were divided into the ‘small’ and the ‘large’ B. (Str. 7,1,3f.; Ptol. 2,11,6f.; 9) and settled between IJssel, Lippe and the upper reaches of the Ems, or rather between the upper reaches of the Ems and the Weser. Defeated by Drusus in 12 BC, they took part in the fight against Varus, and, with their seer Veleda, were involved in the Batavian revolt. After AD 98, they were decimated by the Chamavi and Angrivarii and driven…

http://referencework...ructeri-e220530


#11510    Abramelin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:19 AM

View PostOtharus, on 09 May 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Very interesting.

Something else ~

[131/28] THA LÉKA ÀND BRÉKA THÉR THA BROK.MANNA MITHBROCHT HÀVE


Could this word be related to the tribe-name "Bructeri"?

~ ~ ~


Bructeri
Germanic tribe; uncertain etymology of the name; they were divided into the ‘small’ and the ‘large’ B. (Str. 7,1,3f.; Ptol. 2,11,6f.; 9) and settled between IJssel, Lippe and the upper reaches of the Ems, or rather between the upper reaches of the Ems and the Weser. Defeated by Drusus in 12 BC, they took part in the fight against Varus, and, with their seer Veleda, were involved in the Batavian revolt. After AD 98, they were decimated by the Chamavi and Angrivarii and driven…
http://referencework...ructeri-e220530


It certainly looks they could be the same people, although the OLB doesn't say much about these BROKMANNA:


The best known of the Bructeri was their wise woman Veleda, the spiritual leader of the Batavi rising; her subsequent fate is not known, but it is generally believed that she was captured by the Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bructeri


Veleda was a völva (priestess and prophet) of the Germanic tribe of the Bructeri who achieved some prominence during the Batavian rebellion of AD 69–70, headed by the Romanized Batavian chieftain Gaius Julius Civilis, when she correctly predicted the initial successes of the rebels against Roman legions.

The name may be a generic title for a prophetess (cf. Old Norse vala). The ancient Germanic peoples discerned a divinity of prophecy in women and regarded prophetesses as true and living goddesses. In the latter half of the 1st century AD Veleda was regarded as a deity by most of the tribes in central Germany and enjoyed wide influence.[1] She lived in a tower near the Lippe River, a tributary of the Rhine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda


===

"BROK"" in the OLB:

Alsa is Athênia wrdon êlik en brokland anda hête landa, fol blodsûgar, pogga aend feniniga snâka, hwêrin nên maenniske fon herde sêdum sin fot navt wâga ne mêi.

Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country full of leeches, toads, and poisonous snakes, in which no man of decent habits can set his foot.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

Tha maenniska thêr to bek kêmon, gvngon alle binna tha hringdika thêra burgum hêma, thrvchdam et thêr buta al slyp aend broklând wêre.

The people who came back all lived within the lines of the citadel, as outside there was nothing but mud and marsh.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Bi mina jüged was-t ôre lând, thaet bûta tha hringdik lêid, al pol aend brok.

In my youth there was a portion of land lying outside the rampart all mud and marsh.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bs
==

brook (n.)
"small stream," O.E. broc "flowing stream, torrest," of obscure origin, probably from P.Gmc. *broka- which yielded words in German (Bruch) and Dutch (broek) that have a sense of "marsh." In Sussex and Kent, it means "water-meadow," and in plural, "low, marshy ground."

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0


#11511    Abramelin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:27 AM

Btw, you will have noticed the OLB word for 'leeches': "blodsûgar" (literally : blood sucker, or bloedzuiger in Dutch)

Alsa is Athênia wrdon êlik en brokland anda hête landa, fol blodsûgar, pogga aend feniniga snâka, hwêrin nên maenniske fon herde sêdum sin fot navt wâga ne mêi.

Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country full of leeches, toads, and poisonous snakes, in which no man of decent habits can set his foot.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

We have discussed the OLB word "VAMPYRA" a while ago. Sandbach translated it into 'leech', while it - see context - only could have meant 'vampire', and 'vampire' in the "Bram Stoker" version ( ** )


Reminder:

.FROM MINNO’S WRITINGS.

Nêan andere Hellênia, hi helpt my hügja that er en slach fon maenniska ovir hirtha omme dwâlth, thêr evin lik hi in kaerka aend hola hêma, thêr an tjuster frota, tach navt as hi, vmb vs fon mûsa aend ôra plaega to helpane, men renka to forsinna, tha ôra maenniska hjara witskip to râwane, til thju hja tham to bêtre müge fâta vmber slavona fon to mâkjande aend hjara blod ut to sûgane, even as vampyra dva.

No, answered Hellenia; he reminds me that there is a kind of people that dwell  on earth who, like him, have their homes in dungeons and holes, who rout around in the twilight, not, like him, to deliver us from mice and other plagues, but to invent tricks to steal away the knowledge of other people, in order to take advantage of them, to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like vampires do.

==

( ** )
Polidori's work (1816/1819) had an immense impact on contemporary sensibilities and ran through numerous editions and translations. An adaptation appeared in 1820 with Cyprien Bérard’s novel, Lord Ruthwen ou les Vampires, falsely attributed to Charles Nodier, who himself then wrote his own version, Le Vampire, a play which had enormous success and sparked a "vampire craze" across Europe. This includes operatic adaptations by Heinrich Marschner (see Der Vampyr) and Peter Josef von Lindpaintner (see Der Vampyr), both published in the same year and called "The Vampire". Nikolai Gogol, Alexandre Dumas, and Alexis Tolstoy all produced vampire tales, and themes in Polidori's tale would continue to influence Bram Stoker's Dracula and eventually the whole vampire genre. Dumas makes explicit reference to Lord Ruthwen in The Count of Monte Cristo, going so far as to state that his character "The Comtesse G..." had been personally acquainted with Lord Ruthwen.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Vampyre  

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 May 2012 - 10:15 AM.


#11512    Abramelin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:03 AM

In a former post (scroll up) I suggested that the OLB BROKMANNA were people living in marshes (EN: brook / DU: broek).

Here's another twist that might explain their name (or better, the one of the 'Bructeri') :


Veleda is cognate with the Old Irish title velet or fili, “bard, poet,” the Welsh gweled, “seer,” and the Gaulish uidlua, “sorceress.” Uidlua appears in the longest known Gaulish inscription, a brictom (magical spell) written on a lead sheet found at Larzac. This entire constellation of words comes from an Old Celtic root *wid meaning “to know, see,” which in turn comes from Indo-European *weid-. [Lambert; Dennis King, Celtic Well, 11/30/98; 12/1/98] The same root gives a variety of other Indo-European words having to do with wisdom and seership, including the Russian words vyed’ma, “witch,” and vyedat’, “to see, to know,” as well as the ancient Sanskrit Vedas.

But we have to go back to Uidliua, which appears in a really interesting context. A rare Gaulish inscription on a lead plaque found in an ancient tomb at Larzac, France, refers to a sisterhood of enchantresses who are called Uidliua. The Gaulish text is still imperfectly understood, but linguist Yves Lambert summarizes it as an appeal to the goddess Adsagsona against a group of women who got a witch, Severa Tertionicna, to influence judges in a trial that the supplicant was involved in, asking the goddess to turn back the spell they cast. [Lambert, 172] The first line is interesting: “Send the charm of these women against the names below: this [is] a witch charm bewitching witches,” or in an alternate translation, “of a bewitching witch.” In Gaulish, it reads brictom uidluias uidlu[as] tigontias so.

Lambert derives uidliua, witch, from Old Celtic *uidlmâ [with macron on the a], and ulltimately from the Indo-European root *wid-, “to see, to know.” Within the Celtic realm, Lambert compares this “seeress” name to that of the legendary Irish prophetess Fedelm [167] and he’s not the only one to make this connection. In the spell, the name Uidliua appears in the phrase bnannom bricto, “women’s spell.” This word for “spell” or “charm” appears in another Gaulish inscription as brixtia anderon, “magic of the underworld.” Both forms of this word appear to be related to the name of a goddess of oaths, Bricia or Brixia, known from other inscriptions at Luxeuil. [Lambert, 154, derives these spell-names from the Proto-Indo-European root *bhregh, "to declare solemnly.”]

http://www.sourcemem...net/veleda/?p=8

The Bructeri (and maybe the Brokmanna): a tribe of sorcerers, or a tribe ruled by sorceresses?

The rest of the text is interesting too.

++++++++++++


EDIT:

A bit more about the etymology of the name "Veleda" :

If you enter "Uald" in the search tool for this thread, you will find what I posted about a very similar name with a totally different meaning as is suggested by the etymology I just quoted:


Many hundred years later, says
our Frisian story-teller, one would
find in most Frisian houses and on
the ships representations of the
same virtues justice as a woman,
with sword and balances; unity or
love
, a woman with three babes,
one nestling in. her bosom; hope,
with one hand on her anchor and
with the other holding a bird.
These were carved on walls and
cupboards, or worked in metal.


(The predecessors of Frya, Lyda, and Finda?)

The reader of the writing was
Freso, and he the wanderers chose
to be their king, or visible Uald.
But their troubles were by no
means at an end, and they had
many adventures before passing
through the Pillars of Hercules,
which the Frisians call "dit Nau."
Then they entered the Atlantic,
which they call "the Spanish sea."


=

It is difficult to know what to
make of this strange tale. I am
inclined to think it is made up of
two or three stories of very vary-
ing dates. The oldest part prob-
ably relates to the arrival of the
Frisians from over the sea, led by
their god, who in later times was,
by euphemistic process, turned
sometimes into Uald, the Old or
Elder one
, sometimes into Freso
:

(Uald the Old One => Wr-Alda the Over Old One?)

http://oeralinda.blo...le-of-sylt.html

Uald is of Germanic origin. The name Uald means 'a brave ruler'. Forms of Uald include the names Ualda, Ualdaa, Ualdae, Ualdah, Ualdai, and Ualdia.

http://www.babynames...om/meaning/Uald


( Btw: "the Old One" is NOT a translation of "Uald" )

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 May 2012 - 11:19 AM.


#11513    Otharus

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:19 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 May 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Veleda was a völva (priestess and prophet) of the Germanic tribe of the Bructeri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda
Veleda in Ottema's introduction (1876):
... de prototype van de Romeinsche Vestadienst en de Vestaalsche maagden.
Men denke hierbij aan Velleda (Welda) en Aurinia bij Tacitus Germ. 8 Hist. IV. 61. 65. V. 22. 24. Annal. I. 51 en Gauna de opvolgster van Velleda bij Dio Cassius fragm. 49.
Van de burgt van Velleda spreekt Tacitus als eene edita turris; Verg. hier bl. 146.

In Sandbach's translation:
... the prototype of the Roman Vestal Virgins.
We are reminded here of Velleda (Welda) and Aurinia in Tacitus ("Germania," 8. Hist., iv. 61, 65; v. 22, 24. "Annals," L 54), and of Gauna, the successor of Velleda, in Dio Cassius (Fragments, 49). Tacitus speaks of the town of Velleda as "edita turris," page 146.

Quote

brook (n.)
"small stream," O.E. broc "flowing stream, torrest," of obscure origin, probably from P.Gmc. *broka- which yielded words in German (Bruch) and Dutch (broek) that have a sense of "marsh." In Sussex and Kent, it means "water-meadow," and in plural, "low, marshy ground."

Westfrisian villages with "broek": Lutjebroek, Grootebroek, Hensbroek, Broek op Langedijk.

Edited by Otharus, 10 May 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#11514    Otharus

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 May 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Sandbach translated it into 'leech', while it - see context - only could have meant 'vampire' in the "Bram Stoker" version.

... to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like vampires do.
I do not agree that it only makes sense in the 'stoker'-vampire meaning.

"... suck their blood like leeches" makes perfect sense.


#11515    Otharus

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 May 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

...their king, or visible Uald.
...
Uald is of Germanic origin.
The OLB version of this word is WELD.
A few examples:

VNDER.ET WELD THES MAGÍ

THAT.ER WELDIG SKOLDE WERTHA VR.ET ÉLLE LÁND

THRVCH THÀT WELD SYNRA WÉPNE

WELDIGE LYDA

OVIR ELLA WILDE HJU WELDA

ÀT WELD THAT FON JO UT.GONG

ÉVIN FRY BILYVA FON VNFRYA WELD

... etcetera.

So Weleda could have ment something like "powerful"?

Cornelis Over de Linden knew more about this word.
See:

View PostOtharus, on 12 April 2011 - 03:44 AM, said:

"The Hollandic word 'wereld' [world] is a bastardisation of the old Frisian word Wr-alda, pronounced as 'oer-alda' [oor-alda], which meant 'overoude' [over-old-one]. The word 'wereld' is bastardised, just like the German word 'welt', Oldfrisian 'wald', pronounced as 'welt', that means power [magt] and also influence [gezag]."

... the link between 'wr-alda' and 'wald' or 'weld'.



#11516    Van Gorp

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostOtharus, on 09 May 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Very interesting.

Something else ~

[131/28] THA LÉKA ÀND BRÉKA THÉR THA BROK.MANNA MITHBROCHT HÀVE


Could this word be related to the tribe-name "Bructeri"?

~ ~ ~


Bructeri
Germanic tribe; uncertain etymology of the name; they were divided into the ‘small’ and the ‘large’ B. (Str. 7,1,3f.; Ptol. 2,11,6f.; 9) and settled between IJssel, Lippe and the upper reaches of the Ems, or rather between the upper reaches of the Ems and the Weser. Defeated by Drusus in 12 BC, they took part in the fight against Varus, and, with their seer Veleda, were involved in the Batavian revolt. After AD 98, they were decimated by the Chamavi and Angrivarii and driven…
http://referencework...ructeri-e220530

Posted Image


#11517    Abramelin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:08 PM

Heh, Van Gorp, good one: I googled that word in your scan, "Brockmerlanders" (it is in Germany), but then I found this:

"Willküren der Brockmänner : eines freyen friesischen Volkes" (The stubborness/self-will -??- of the Brockmen; a free Frisian people) / 1820

http://www.worldcat..../oclc/010904369

And here it is online:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

And it WAS available on Amazon (modern version for those - like me - who hate to read Gothic script):

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B006FMSDX8


More:

From:

A Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language - Joseph Bosworth

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


Attached File  Brokmanna.jpg   177.72K   8 downloads

Edited by Abramelin, 10 May 2012 - 06:27 PM.


#11518    Van Gorp

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 May 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Heh, Van Gorp, good one: I googled that word in your scan, "Brockmerlanders" (it is in Germany), but then I found this:

"Willküren der Brockmänner : eines freyen friesischen Volkes" (The stubborness/self-will -??- of the Brockmen; a free Frisian people) / 1820

http://www.worldcat..../oclc/010904369

And here it is online:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

And it WAS available on Amazon (modern version for those - like me - who hate to read Gothic script):

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B006FMSDX8

.

Yo Abe, cool stuff ... (to connect one and another).  All seems to run through each other ...


#11519    Otharus

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:15 PM

Kanttekeningen bij het OERA LINDA BOEK, by G.J. van der Meij (1978)
(sorry to those who don't read Dutch and French):

Nu, de Grave weet dit reeds in 1806 (1 I, p. 178) zij 't in verband met de geschiedenis der Brackmannen, welk volk uit de omgeving van Antwerpen, zich in de voortijd zou hebben bevonden aan de oevers van de Gangas (1 1, p. 1 70) en daar gekomen was vanuit Europa!’

Les Brackmannes sont forcés de convexer quilt sent eux-mémes étrangers au fords du Gange. Brackman keut donc d ire domme du Bracklant. La Brabant a porti autrefois Ie nom de Propontis el c'esl de la qua la mar grecque de Marmora a recu son nom de Propontide domme I'HeI Inspant de Hel Ie symbool de Hol land soaur de Phryxus (/a friseert.

Les Brackmannes étoient des long cautie d'études dans IeS gans qui s'excercoient dans les écoles et sent obligés de faire un colleges de leur université a Bénares (p. 173).

Niet alleen dat de Grave de Europese cultuur eerst naar India laat gaan en vandaar weer terug ziet keren naar Europa, welke denkbeelden 't OLB heeft overgenomen of zelfstandig heeft bedacht, de episode over de Brackmannen doet ons op onze qui-vive zijn wanneer 't OLB eveneens over de Brokmanna spreekt (p. 178).

In onze toelichting (haast. I I I) wezen wij de vertaling van Ottema als Brokmannen af. Wij zagen hierin 't woord’brukmen-gebruiken'' dat heel wel in de tekst van 't verhaal past. Maar misschien is de auteur ook wel geinspireerd geweest door de naam Brakmannen - de gareerden uit een vroeg tijdperk die naar Europa waren teruggekeerd (met hun leken en gebreken), plus het feit dat Strabo hen als een in India levende volksstam vermeldt.

De fantasieen gaan voort. De Engelsen zouden volgens de Grave in Benares nog een oud handschrift hebben ontdekt, waarin het Europese vaderland der Brakmannen (p. 176/1 78) zou zijn beschreven, terwijl hij er nogmaals op zinspeelt dat evenals nu onze zending en missie - voorheen toch ook wel Europese cultuurdragers naar Aziè kunnen zijn gegaan.

(from Knul's website)


#11520    Abramelin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:20 PM

As you can see here, those Brokmanna lived near East Frisia, at the coast:

Attached File  Brokmanna.jpg   177.72K   3 downloads

++++

EDIT:

Thinking about it a bit more those "Brakmannen" sound an awful lot like "Brahmanen" ("Brachmanna"??) or "Brahmans" in English (that is what your quote from Knul's site  suggests)..

Alas, there really were Frisian Brokmen, or the OLB "Brok.manna".

De Grave did what the creators of the OLB did too: if a word/name sounds anything similar to something we have here, we can fabricate a suiting etymology and a great history by that alone.

It's a game of Scrabble, or better, kid's play with words.

This has nothing to do with linguistics at all.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 May 2012 - 07:43 PM.