11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 14 May 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

see down.

Downs are hilly areas, the Darling Downs is a known one here - hill;hillfort. This was a Celtic town. The dun is the tun, because towns were on hilly hillforts.

Dutch tuin as garden imo is because the Dutch were not Celtic warriors with hillforts, rather people who created towns with gardens, enclosures around houses. Their towns were 'gardens', not hills/downs.

The Celtic "dun" has been equated with the Dutch "duin" or sandhill.

But "tuin" or "tun" (garden, enclosure) has no etymological relationship with this Celtic "dun" (hillford), although my quote in a former post would suggest otherwise.


And the English "town" started like this:

O.E. tun "enclosure, garden, field, yard; farm, manor; homestead, dwelling house, mansion;" later "group of houses, village.

[Otharus]

Outsmarting dr. Jensma and oldschool-etymology

English "BAD" <== Fryan "BALD" ==> Dutch "BAL(D)"

1) [124/04] Ljudgért's diary, ca. 300 BCE
THÀT BISÁWD.VS ÀND LIKT VS BALTO
[O+S p.169]
Dat verbaasde ons, en leek ons raar [slecht] toe
This astounded us, and seemed most extraordinary [bad to us]

2) [145/20]
VMBÉNE FOLGSTERE TO KJASANE THÉR TVÍVELIK WÉRE
THÉR HETH HJU BALD IN SJAN
[O+S p.197]
om een opvolgster te kiezen die twijfelachtig was
daar heeft zij kwaad ingezien
to choose a [successor that was] doubtful one
she thought would be very bad

3) [146/17]
ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD ...
WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED
[O+S p.199]
Na de groote vloed ...
waren vele Jutten en Letten met de ebbe uit de Balda of kwade zee gevoerd
After the great flood ...
there came many Jutlanders [Juttar] and Letlanders [Létne] [were driven] out of the Baltic, or bad sea

4) [162/14]
THISSA LOGHA SKIL ALLE BALDA FORSTA VRTÉRA
ÀND ALLE SKIN.FRÁNA ÀND SMÚGRIGA PRESTERA
[O+S p.119]
Deze vlam zal alle slechte vorsten verteeren
en alle schijnvrome en smerige priesters
that flame will destroy all bad princes
and [all] hypocritical [and] dirty priests

5) [203/26]
HJU ... TÁG SELVA A LINGEN THENE BALDA.SÉ
[O+S p.203]
zij ... toog zelve langs de Baltische zee
she ... went herself along the Baltic Sea

6) [208/05]
ALINGEN THÉRE KÁD FON THA BALDA.SÉ
[O+S p.251]
langs de kusten van de Baltische zee
along the coasts of the Baltic Sea

Footnotes Jensma (translated)

At fragment 1):
"from Hettema (1832) dictionary: 'Bael'; Ottema erroneously translated it as 'raar' (strange)"

At fragment 3):
"Baldic Sea - unclear etymology; Oldfrisian 'bald' = soon, and not 'bad'. This might be derived from the English 'bad' (?)."

Various Oldfrisian dictionaries

Wiarda (1786):
Bael ~ böse, ungerecht (bad, evil, unjust)

Hettema (1832):
Bael, bal, baal ~ kwaad, boos (bad, evil)

Richthofen (1840) only has 'bald(e)' in the meaning bold, daring, strong-spirited, swift; not in the meaning bad or evil

Hettema (1874) has left out bael, bal that he had in his 1832 edition, but he listed baelmond~ malus tutor (bad guardian or teacher). He also listed balde ~ terstond (immediately).

Halbertsma (1874):
Bal, baal ~ malus (bad, evil);
also several combinations, like bal-dedich (wanton, rebelious)

==>> conclusion: nowhere BALD with D in the meaning bad, evil

In WNT (Dictionary of Dutch Language) from 1895:

BAL ~ bnw.; thans in de algemeene taal geheel verouderd, maar gewestelijk nog bekend, ook in den vorm balt en in de afleiding balsch; het beteekent dan boos, driftig, of onrustig, of ook schuw (van vogels gezegd): aldus in het Friesch en in Noordhollandsche dialecten (zie halbertsma, Lexic. Fris. 166, bouman 5, boekenoogen 30 ). In het Westvlaamsch wordt gezegd ”mijne ooren slaan bal van al dat getier”, en de bo (de bo 76 [1873]) verklaart het met fr. assourdi. Het grondwoord ook hiervan is misschien de bekende stam balwo-: ags. bealu, slecht, enz.
Thans nog in de Samenst. afl. Baloorig, balsturig (zie die woorden).
Samenst. Baldaad (zie ald.).

In the same, under BALDAAD:

ook wel BALDDAAD gespeld (verg. BALDADIG) —, znw. vr., mv. baldaden. Eene samenst. met Bal (IV), en thans alleen nog bewaard in de afleiding baldadig; geen van die beide woorden zijn tot nog toe in het Mnl. aangewezen, maar wel het afgeleide baeldadicheit (zie eene plaats uit Wal. bij verdam 1, 512). Baldaad heeft misschien van den Oudgermaanschen tijd af bij ons bestaan: ohd. palotât, osaks. baludâd, ags. bealud᫦d (schade 38 a); noch in het Mndd. noch in het Mhd. schijnt het zeer gebruikelijk te zijn geweest. Doch het is ook niet onmogelijk dat het bij ons in de 16de en de 17de eeuw opnieuw uit baldadig is afgeleid. Thans verouderd.
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...mmodern=baldaad

Now, a quick look at what Wiktionary says about the etymology of the English "BAD":

Middle English bad, badde (“wicked, evil, depraved”), probably a shortening of Old English bæddel (“hermaphrodite”) (cf. English much, wench, from Old English myċel, wenċel), from bǣdan (“to defile”), from Proto-Germanic *bad- (cf. Old High German pad (“hermaphrodite”)), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰoidʰ- (cf. Welsh baedd (“wild boar”), Latin foedus (“foul, filthy”), foedō (“to defile, pollute”)).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bad

What an incredible nonsense!

And now, Wikipedia about the Etymology of the Baltic Sea:

While Tacitus called it Mare Suebicum[2] after the Germanic people of the Suebi, the first to name it also as the Baltic Sea (Mare Balticum) was eleventh century German chronicler Adam of Bremen. The origin of the latter name is speculative. It might be connected to the Germanic word belt, a name used for two of the Danish straits, the Belts, while others claim it to be derived from Latin balteus (belt).[3] However it should be noted that the name of the Belts might be connected to Danish bælte, which also means belt.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Baltic_Sea

In other words, they don't have a clue.

~ ~ ~

I lack time to finish this now, but this is a wonderful clue.

In short:

Old-frisian/ Old-dutch "Bael" or "Bal" from the dictionaries is a bastardisation from BALD, which is also the origin of the English "bad", and indeed provides a plausible etymology for the Baltic Sea.

~ ~ ~ to be continued!

[Abramelin]

There is one word/name in the whole of the OLB that really mystifies me.

It's "Lumka-makia".

I have suggested it was the Frisian town Lemster, Knul suggested it was place (a rock, actually) on the island of Heligoland, and we all went on for ages and not being able to pinpoint a suitable etymology.

Lumka-makia was the birth place of the OLB Wodin.

From the OLB:

Wodin thene aldeste hêmde to Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us.
Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents.

Sandbach/Ottema assumed it was the city of Emden, at the mouth ("mude") of the river Ems.


Older names for Emden are Amuthon, Embda, Emda, and Embden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emden


"Amuthon"? I googled that name, and this is what I found: http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Amuthon

It's a Dutch city called "Muiden": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muiden

As you all can see on the map on that Wiki page, this Muiden wasn't anything near East Flyland so we must forget about that one.

But it's interesting that the oldest known name for Emden is "Amuthon".

From Wiki:

Emden ontstond rond 800 als een handelsnederzetting (Amuthon) op een wierde aan de Eems en werd in de 12e eeuw de hoofdstad van het Oost-Friese graafschap Eemsgo.

http://nl.wikipedia....en_(Nedersaksen)

In English:

Emden came into existence around 800 AD as a trade settlement (Amuthon) on an artificial mound near the river Ems in the 12th century and was the capital of the East Frisian county Eemsgo.

So.. it wasn't even there when the OLB was first put onto paper (around 600 BC).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 May 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

The Celtic "dun" has been equated with the Dutch "duin" or sandhill.

But "tuin" or "tun" (garden, enclosure) has no etymological relationship with this Celtic "dun" (hillford), although my quote in a former post would suggest otherwise.

Yes, it has. Tuin is not really garden, it's town - "dun"-hillfort - it's just Dutch towns were 'gardens' not hill forts.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 14 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Yes, it has. Tuin is not really garden, it's town - "dun"-hillfort - it's just Dutch towns were 'gardens' not hill forts.

That's bs, lol.

[Van Gorp]

[Abramelin]

Great, so now you expect the members of UM to be able to read Latin?

Try a bit better, ok?

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

That's bs, lol.

and so is this:

Quote

But "tuin" or "tun" (garden, enclosure) has no etymological relationship with this Celtic "dun" (hillford),

It does have an etymological relationship.

[The Puzzler]

The Eem, maybe it's the Emude.
Situated in this red area.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eem

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 May 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Also, with the etymology, I say it's "to make warm/hot" - whatever that refers to in the place name, that is what I think it means - maybe an ironworks, a furnace area, something they did there at lumka-makia (make warm).


-------------------------------------

Thinking of Baldr. His name could mean "white,light". Grimm says it might be from bold/brave but then this:

But the interpretation of Baldr as "the brave god" may be secondary. Baltic (cf. Lithuanian baltas, Latvian balts) has a word meaning "the white, the good", and Grimm speculates that the name may originate as a Baltic loan into Proto-Germanic. In continental Saxon and Anglo-Saxon tradition, the son of Woden is called not Bealdor but Baldag (Sax.) and Bældæg, Beldeg (AS.), which shows association with "day", possibly with Day personified as a deity which, Grimm points out, would agree with the meaning "shining one, white one, a god" derived from the meaning of Baltic baltas, further adducing Slavic Belobog and German Berhta

This is bald.
English

From Middle English balled (“bald”), from ball (“white spot, blaze”) ( + -ed), from Old English *bala
(“white patch, blaze”), from Proto-Germanic *balô (“flame”), from Proto-Indo-European *bhela- (“light, bright”). Cognate with Danish bældet (“bald”), Gothic ��������- (bala-, “shining, grey (of body)”), Old English bǣl (“fire, flame; funeral pyre”).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bald

(I have no idea why this is italics) A bald spot is so called because it it is a shiny white spot on your head. O.E Bael as fire is reminiscent of the rituals connected with Bel/Baal actually. With Baldr's wife as Nanna, it really makes me wonder how far these names and words have travelled around.

Then ball: Etymology 1
From Middle English bal, ball, balle, from Old English *beall, *bealla (“round object, ball”) or Old Norse bǫllr (“a ball”) (whence the Icelandic böllur (“scrotum; penis; a ball”)), both from Proto-Germanic *balluz, *ballô (“ball”), from Proto-Indo-European *bholn- (“bubble”), from Proto-Indo-European *bhel- (“to blow, inflate, swell”). Cognate with Old Saxon ball, Dutch bal, Old High German bal, ballo (German Ball (“ball”); Ballen (“bale”)). Related forms in Romance are borrowings from Germanic. See also balloon, bale.


Note PIE in first one - BHELA = light, bright
PIE in second one - BHEL = blow, inflate, swell - which is where they say Bull comes from.  

Somehow a ball indicated bright light -

Something like 'ball lightening'




M. l'abbé de Tressan, in Mythology compared with history: or, the fables of the ancients elucidated from historical records:

... during a storm which endangered the ship Argo, fires were seen to play round the heads of the Tyndarides, and the instant after the storm ceased. From that time, those fires which frequently appear on the surface of the ocean were called the fire of Castor and Pollux. When two were seen at the same time, it announced the return of calm, when only one, it was the presage of a dreadful storm. This species of fire is frequently seen by sailors, and is a species of ignis fatuus. (page 417)

http://en.wikipedia..../Ball_lightning

It is conjectured their circular shape symbolises ball lightning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus - you had Hettema said bael as bad.

Hettema (1832):
Bael, bal, baal ~ kwaad, boos (bad, evil)

By 1874 he had removed bael.

OE bael was flame, fire, funeral pyre - probably never good so could be construed as 'bad' imo.

Maybe it's like tuin as garden, it's not etymologically garden but means garden, rather than town - like bael is not bad etymologically, but it 'means' it.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 14 May 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

The Eem, maybe it's the Emude.
Situated in this red area.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eem

Like I said, that's not East Flyland.

[Abramelin]

From a former post of mine:

Emden came into existence around 800 AD as a trade settlement (Amuthon) on an artificial mound near the river Ems in the 12th century and was the capital of the East Frisian county Eemsgo.

So Emden came into existence long after the OLB Wodin lived. So where he hell should we look for Lumka-makia? All logic points to some place near the mouth of the river Ee (hence, "Ê-mude") in East Flyland.

From the OLB:

Anda Alder-gâmude thêr reste en alde sêkaening. Sterik was sin nôme aend tha hrop vr sina dêda was grât. Thisse alde rob hêde thrê nêva; Wodin thene aldeste hêmde to Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us. Ênes was er hêrman wêst. Tünis aend Inka wêron sêkaemper aend just nw bi hjara faederja anda Aldergâ-mude t-vs. As tha jonga kaempar nw bi ekkôrum kêmon, kêron hja Wodin to hjara hêrman jefta kaening ut, aend tha sêkaempar kêron Tünis to-ra sêkaening aend Inka to hjara skelte bî thêr nacht. Tha stjurar gvngon thâ nêi tha Dênnemarka fâra, thêr nâmon hja Wodin mith sin wigandlika landwêr in.

At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Tünis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Tünis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin [Sandbach: "and his valiant host"] with his brave home guard.

The OLB gives us two places: "near the Eemude" and Denmark...

But what was Odin/Wodin/Wodan's birthplace, according to tradition?

HEATHEN-GRAVEYARD ON DANISH ISLAND. FYN, WODEN´S PROBABLE BIRTHPLACE

Island of Fyn, probable birthplace
of ancient germanic king, Wóden,
who became honored and made into
the god Wóden (Odin)

http://www.proto-ger...island-fyn.html


So in 6th century Sweden, he would have been called *WóþinaR. He was a real man, probably a great warrior-king, later deified. Born c. 100 AD on the modern Danish island of Fyn. His birthplace still bears his name, the modern city of Odense, Óðinsvé in Icelandic and in proto-Northwest Germanic, *Wóðinaswáih or Wodens-hallow. (the EastGmc Goths, Vandals had left 300 years prior, hence there is NEVER any mention of any character, hero, king, god called anything similar to *Wóðinaz, *Wódanaz, Óðinn, Oden, Woden, Wuotan. Also the word Æsir is from PGmc ansiwiz, the singular is ansuz. Norse and Ingvaeonic (Anglo-Saxon, Frisian, etc) lost nasals, n & m before s or z. In Gothic, OHG the word ans meant a god, specifically, not the Biblical God.

http://www.theaprici...ad.php?p=882988
http://www.proto-ger...real-story.html

Is the Danish island of Fyn in East Flyland? I don't think it is.

Is there a river on or near Fyn called "Ee"? I couldn't find it.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Like I said, that's not East Flyland.

OK, are you placing East Flyland as being in the Wadden Islands?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlieland


The Vlie or Vliestroom is the seaway between the Dutch islands of Vlieland, to its southwest, and Terschelling, to its northeast. The Vlie was the estuary of the river IJssel in medieval times. In 1666 the English Admiral Robert Holmes burnt a Dutch merchant fleet of 130 ships (Holmes's Bonfire), that had taken refuge in the Vlie, mistakenly supposing the English could never find their way through the treacherous shoals, so typical for the coastal waters there. Today it's still possible to reach the port of Harlingen by way of the Vlie.
It is often supposed that the old Roman name for the lake that later would become the Zuiderzee: Lacus Flevo, is etymologically related to the name "Vlie" and that perhaps Vlie was once the name of the entire lake and the big river that flowed out of it. In the 13th century large floods widened the estuary and destroyed much of the peat land behind, creating a continuous area of sand and mudflats connecting the sea to the enlarged inland lake and obscuring the flow of the river. When the Afsluitdijk was created, the old streambed from the river to the sea was obstructed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlie

A river once flowed out to Vlieland (Flyland).

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Like I said, that's not East Flyland.

You were going on about the Emden, but that's not this same river Eem, as far as I can see.