11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Now, with IJ I found:

IJmuiden!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJmuiden

The IJmuiden name literally means “mouth of the IJ”, which is a hint to the importance the town has for the Amsterdam harbor. The name “IJmuiden” first appeared as IJ-muiden in lines written in 1848 by the professor and journalist (and, later, a liberal finance minister in the Van Lynden van Sandenburg Cabinet) Simon Vissering. The present IJmuiden form was eventually adopted in 1876, as the North Sea Canal was being completed in this section.

BUT IJselmuide is on the old map - so some form of an IJmuiden was there prior to the above IJmuiden.

Seems to be IJsselmeer was once the IJ - E river. "mouth of the IJ" - mouth of the E - with that IJ being a Y sound, pronounced E as in Yves St Laurant.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

It appears the Emude might be Emden - it's E-md in the word is what to look for - it says here that Emden retains this mude word in it. Like the Emuthon you found.

http://books.google....ymology&f=false

Maybe Flyland was a larger named area once, maybe the whole Wadden Sea...

Or maybe IJ as in IJsselmeer is really an E sound  - E (IJ) mouth/mude

No, I found an 'Amuthon' as the oldest name for Emden.

And Lemster/Lemmer was at the mouth of the former river Ee in Friesland. It doesn't exist anylonger.

-

Well yeah, if the river Fly ran through an area that was called Flyland, then that will have been much of the Dutch Wadden Sea area plus the islands plus the province of Friesland and the northern part of the province of Noordholland.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Now, with IJ I found:

IJmuiden!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJmuiden

The IJmuiden name literally means “mouth of the IJ”, which is a hint to the importance the town has for the Amsterdam harbor. The name “IJmuiden” first appeared as IJ-muiden in lines written in 1848 by the professor and journalist (and, later, a liberal finance minister in the Van Lynden van Sandenburg Cabinet) Simon Vissering. The present IJmuiden form was eventually adopted in 1876, as the North Sea Canal was being completed in this section.

BUT IJselmuide is on the old map - so some form of an IJmuiden was there prior to the above IJmuiden.

Seems to be IJsselmeer was once the IJ - E river. "mouth of the IJ" - mouth of the E - with that IJ being a Y sound, pronounced E as in Yves St Laurant.

Uhmm, no.... The IJsselmeer is named after the river IJssel which has its mouth in the lake, and which was called 'Isala' during Roman times.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Uhmm, no.... The IJsselmeer is named after the river IJssel which has its mouth in the lake, and which was called 'Isala' during Roman times.

Now you tell me of an Ee River in Friesland - sheesh. So the mouth of the Ee River was probably where it means as the Emude imo. I waste so much time on here.

http://www.ancientsi...District/812832


I can't find much on it - is it some other Ee name, like is it the same as the Ems, Eems or any other river or just the Ee river and do you have any info on it - I have to do bed now.

At Harlingen (where a river comes out) it looks like it says Lumkereke or something, what do you reckon? Harlingen looks very close to Flyland. Where is Lemster?

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Now you tell me of an Ee River in Friesland - sheesh. So the mouth of the Ee River was probably where it means as the Emude imo. I waste so much time on here.

http://www.ancientsi...District/812832


I can't find much on it - is it some other Ee name, like is it the same as the Ems, Eems or any other river or just the Ee river and do you have any info on it - I have to do bed now.

At Harlingen (where a river comes out) it looks like it says Lumkereke or something, what do you reckon? Harlingen looks very close to Flyland. Where is Lemster?

Puzz, I didn't tell you just now, I posted about it half a year ago. The river Ee near Lemmer is no more.

Maybe I can find a map I posted long ago with this little river on it.

-

Lemster = Lemmer.

++

EDIT:

Maybe you wasted time on here, but then you should have used the search tool for this thread, and looked up what you assumed had not been addressed before.

I am sorry to tell you, but I remember what I posted for this thread. Almost every word of it.

Obsessed? Nah.... lol.

Abramelin, on 09 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction for this "Lumka-makia".

In the OLB Eemude is spelled like "Ê-mude". We all think either "Ems" (the river) or "Emden" (the city).

But doesn't it mean "Mouth of the river Ee"? Like in "E-mouth"?

There was a river with that name, "Ee", and it connected the Middel Sea with the Zuiderzee/Flevo Lake (presentday IJsselmeer).

Wiki page about river Ee


mouth
O.E. muþ, from P.Gmc. *munthaz (cf. O.Fris. muth, O.N. munnr, M.Du. mont, Ger. Mund, Goth. munþs "mouth"), with characteristic loss of nasal consonant in O.E. (cf. tooth, goose, etc.), from PIE *mnto-s (cf. L. mentum "chin"). In the sense of "outfall of a river" it is attested from early 12c.; as the opening of anything with capacity (a bottle, cave, etc.) it is recorded from c.1200.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


==


EDIT:

Note: this is not to say Eemude = IJmuiden, its just to explain a bit more what I tried to show about the origin of that name "E-mude":


Many ancient rivers in the Netherlands were called "Ee", or "Aa" or even "ij" (pronounced like the -ey- in 'hey').

I did a bit of reshuffling of letters, and then I got it: IJmuiden = IJ-mude!!



History
In the Roman era, this Velsen district was already inhabited, and archeological finds at the impoldered lake of Wijkermeer[1] indicate there was a North Sea port of some regional importance built here[2]. Present day IJmuiden includes four harbors: the vissershaven (Ship's code IJM), a fishing dock (visafslag), the haringhaven, the IJmondhaven and the Seaport Marina IJmuiden, a harbour for pleasure craft. IJmuiden became the largest fishing port of the Netherlands after the island of Urk became closed in by the Afsluitdijk. The town suffered heavy damage and demolition during World War II, because of its maritime importance.

Mouth of the IJ
The IJmuiden name literally means “mouth of the IJ”, which is a hint to the importance the town has for the Amsterdam harbor. The name “IJmuiden” first appeared as IJ-muiden in lines written in 1848 by the professor and journalist (and, later, a liberal finance minister in the Van Lynden van Sandenburg Cabinet) Simon Vissering. The present IJmuiden form was eventually adopted in 1876, as the North Sea Canal was being completed in this section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJmuiden


.

Abramelin, on 09 October 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

The spelling of the city is "Emden", and yes, it sounds close to E-mude.

But look closely at the way it is written in the OLB: E - mude.. or... the "mouth of the river Ee".

There was a small river with the name Ee... and it's mouth lay near a city called Lemmer.

Well, that doesn't sound much like "Lumka-makia", right?

OK, so I checked for maybe an older name, and this is what they think Lemmer was called centuries ago: Lemmerbroek or Lammerbroek.


In het jaar 1165 geeft bisschop Godfried van Utrecht aan de Friezen van
Lammerbroek een stuk grond in het stroomgebied van de Tjonger. Die grond lag tussen de oude loop van de Linde en Kuinre. Het is zeer waarschijnlijk dat diezelfde Friezen - van Lammerhoek of Lemsterhoek - op verzoek van de abt van het St. Oduifusklooster in Staveren de loop van de Kromme Ee bij Tacozijl hebben verbeterd en als ter zake kundigen later het Lindegebied onder handen namen in opdracht van die abt, die in dienst was van de bisschop van Utrecht. Van dit bisdom was Kuinre als 't ware een kolonie.

De Kromme Ee was vroeger een belangrijke verbinding tussen de Middelzee en het meer Flevo.

http://www.friesarch...ion=com_content
http://www.spanvis.n...rzijl/index.htm

In English:

In the year 1165 Bishop Godfried (LOL) of Utrecht gave a piece of land to the Frisians of Lammerbroek in the basin (?) of the river Tjonger

And the "Kromme Ee" is "Crooked/Bent/Curved Ee" in English, and it was an important connection between the Middel Sea and the Flevo Lake (future IJsselmeer).

So the city at the mouth of the Ee ("E-mude") was called "Lammerbroek" or ""Lemmerbroek" long ago; nowadays it's called "Lemmer".

It was also near that other 'interesting' river: the Linde, and located in the socalled "Lindegebied" = Linden area = Lindenoorden, heh.

My guess? "Lumkamakia" was a nickname for a city.

And the "kamakia" part makes me think of something, despite the fact that the name is written in the OLB like this, "Lumka-makia".

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, I didn't ignore your posts about BAL/D on purpose, I was just too busy discussing with Puzz.

You posted a word, BALDADIG, and I had to think of WALDACH...

Abramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Long ago I posted abut the "Frisia seu De viris rebusque Frisiae" by Martinus Hamconius. I also posted screenshots frpm that book..

But here I found another real copy:

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

And another couple of screenshots (and look at the list of the Frisian 'pantheon') :

PHRESIA_INDICA-HAMCONIUS.jpg

FRISIAN_GODS-HAMCONIUS.jpg
Stauo/Stavo > Jupiter
Fosta > Mars
Snein > Sol
Harco > Hercules
Holler > Pluto
Freda > Venus
VValdach > Diana
Meda > Medea

.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apiaceae

http://books.google....waldach&f=false

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[Abramelin]

Puzz, this is about the river IJssel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJssel

You will maybe remember (I know I say that a lot, but god, this thread is monstruously large) that we talked about the Alans.

I had found a map that showed a name "Regio Alanorum Saxonum" or something in N/W Germany.

And later on you found a map that said, "Transisalanorum" which I think you (or maybe me, lol) said it should be written as Transis Alanorum.

Actually, it should be Trans Isalanorum, the Latin name for the present-day province of Overijssel (Over = trans, IJssel = Isala)

No one else but Joast Halbertsma said that someone had made a wrong interpretation of that Latin name, "Transisalanorum" (or Transisalania as it is also called), and so he said that the one in error thought it meant 'on the other side of Alan land', or "Transis Alania". Which would make Friesland Alan land, and hence the mentioning of the former name of the Frisian land "Land of the Alans" in the poem by Willem Van Haren, an epic poem about Friso Halbertsma had studied and analysed in detail.



++++


EDIT:

Abramelin, on 01 May 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

It appears to me that Willem van Haren had not just made up his "land of the Alans".. there actually WAS a Land of the Alans in what is now north-west Germany, bordered in the north by...the old Rüstringen county, hahaha !!

85.12. The author of this map thinks that the Ambrones (a people who went into Italy with the Danes, and were slain and overthrown by emperor Marius, as Plutarchus records) dwelt in this area and their name still lives among the people they call Amelanders. He has the same opinion about the Alani Saxones who he truly believes to have dwelled sometime near lake Alana in this province, on both sides of the river Alana, even as high up as the castle of Oria now called Lengener, as who would say Alani and Averlenger, that is, the Alanes on the further side.

http://www.orteliusm...ort_text85.html

(and what is that about "Amelanders"??? )
===

Ortelius, A. - OLDENBURG COMIT.


http://www.swaen.com...-of.php?id=3973

And see on the next map: Alanorum Saxonum Regio:

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Abramelin]

The edit will hopefully show you we can find anything in this thread, you just have to know how, And it's easy....well, kind of.

Still busy finding that damned map with that river Ee...

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 14 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Great, so now you expect the members of UM to be able to read Latin?

Try a bit better, ok?

Hey Abe, you must be joking! lol

If I see how here has been googled for pages, and people couldn't look up for the translation of 5 Latin keywords theirselves?
I do not underestimate the able searcher.  In fact, about Germania too many coloured 'translations' passed during last centuries (I have no ambiton to extend that list :-).

I try to stick to the basic, that post reconciles what you and Puzz were bickering about.

Well, I'll try my best for this one.

Anyone able to explain why Germans are always considered to be 'blond' (or red)?
Because of the latin word 'rutilae' in Tacitus small work of just some pages about Germania.

And 'rutilae' was the colour of the hair of 'German' warriors, because they 'painted' it red.
So small suggestion, forget all that Blond/Scandinavian typecasting that has been lasting way too long.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 15 May 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Hey Abe, you must be joking! lol

If I see how here has been googled for pages, and people couldn't look up for the translation of 5 Latin keywords theirselves?
I do not underestimate the able searcher.  In fact, about Germania too many coloured 'translations' passed during last centuries (I have no ambiton to extend that list :-).

I try to stick to the basic, that post reconciles what you and Puzz were bickering about.

Well, I'll try my best for this one.

Anyone able to explain why Germans are always considered to be 'blond' (or red)?
Because of the latin word 'rutilae' in Tacitus small work of just some pages about Germania.

And 'rutilae' was the colour of the hair of 'German' warriors, because they 'painted' it red.
So small suggestion, forget all that Blond/Scandinavian typecasting that has been lasting way too long.

People do google a lot, but they wil have to know what to google.

And the scan of that Latin text you posted didn't make clear what to google.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

The edit will hopefully show you we can find anything in this thread, you just have to know how, And it's easy....well, kind of.

Still busy finding that damned map with that river Ee...

I see you also thought of IJ for E, like I did last night.

OK, I thought Lemmer might be Lemster but wanted to check it was the same. So, it came out at Lemmer.

I must have missed the River Ee part, sometimes I scan posts too fast.

https://maps.google....ved=0CDQQ_AUoAg

That shows Kromme Ee on the map, and looks to flow toward Lemmer. I can see Ee (IJlst too) - looks like it might follow the same path at that point.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ee_(IJlst)

[The Puzzler]

Got it now, that's where I think Lumka Makia is then.

The mother rounded up all the men from Astflyland and Denmark - it clearly says Wodin lived at Astflyland, so imo, Wodin must have been in Denmark with his guard (troops) at the time but lived in Astflyland. That's the best I can make of it.

Wodin being 'born' in Denmark in myth, may be because that's the first place he was known as being, by the people who created his myth.

[The Puzzler]

Van Gorp, on 15 May 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Hey Abe, you must be joking! lol

If I see how here has been googled for pages, and people couldn't look up for the translation of 5 Latin keywords theirselves?
I do not underestimate the able searcher.  In fact, about Germania too many coloured 'translations' passed during last centuries (I have no ambiton to extend that list :-).

I try to stick to the basic, that post reconciles what you and Puzz were bickering about.

Well, I'll try my best for this one.

Anyone able to explain why Germans are always considered to be 'blond' (or red)?
Because of the latin word 'rutilae' in Tacitus small work of just some pages about Germania.

And 'rutilae' was the colour of the hair of 'German' warriors, because they 'painted' it red.
So small suggestion, forget all that Blond/Scandinavian typecasting that has been lasting way too long.

O.E. tun "enclosure, garden, field, yard; farm, manor; homestead, dwelling house, mansion;" later "group of houses, village, farm," from P.Gmc. *tunaz, *tunan (cf. O.S., O.N., O.Fris. tun "fence, hedge," M.Du. tuun "fence," Du. tuin "garden," O.H.G. zun, Ger. Zaun "fence, hedge"), an early borrowing from Celtic *dunom (cf. O.Ir. dun, Welsh din "fortress, fortified place, camp,"
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=town

dun to tun to tuin - all mean town - but started as gardens - is what I make of it all. Garden is not etymologically connected to dun though. Yard is connected to garden.
yard (1) "ground around a house," O.E. geard "enclosure, garden, court, house, yard," from P.Gmc. *garda (cf. O.N. garðr "enclosure, garden, yard;" O.Fris. garda, Du. gaard, O.H.G. garto, Ger. Garten "garden;" Goth. gards "house," garda "stall"), from PIE *gharto-, from root *gher- "to grasp, enclose" (cf. O.E. gyrdan "to gird," Skt. ghra- "house," Alb. garth "hedge," L. hortus "garden," Phrygian -gordum "town," Gk. khortos "pasture," O.Ir. gort "field," Bret. garz "enclosure, garden," and second element in L. cohors "enclosure, yard, company of soldiers, multitude").

Lith. gardas "pen, enclosure," O.C.S. gradu "town, city," and Rus. gorod, -grad "town, city" belong to this group, but linguists dispute whether they are independent developments or borrowings from Germanic. Yard sale is attested by 1976. Middle English yerd "yard-land" (mid-15c.) was a measure of about 30 acres. http://www.etymonlin...arch=Town house Gordum - town - gord = enclosure, garden - garto-garter - girth
But I see your dun reference to red.

Etymology 1
From Middle English dun, dunne, from Old English dunn (“dun, dingy brown, bark-colored, brownish black”), from Proto-Germanic *dusnaz (“brown, yellow”), from Proto-Indo-European *dhūw- (“to smoke, raise dust”). Cognate with Old Saxon dun (“brown, dark”), Old High German tusin (“ash-gray, dull brown, pale yellow, dark”).
Alternative etymology derives the Old English word from Late Brythonic (cf. Old Welsh dwnn 'dark (red)'), from Proto-Celtic *dusno (cf. Old Irish donn), from Proto-Indo-European *dwos (cf. Old Saxon dosan 'chestnut brown'). More at dusk.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dun

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Got it now, that's where I think Lumka Makia is then.

The mother rounded up all the men from Astflyland and Denmark - it clearly says Wodin lived at Astflyland, so imo, Wodin must have been in Denmark with his guard (troops) at the time but lived in Astflyland. That's the best I can make of it.

Wodin being 'born' in Denmark in myth, may be because that's the first place he was known as being, by the people who created his myth.

But the OLB clearly says that they picked up Wodin in Denmark. Why would they pick him up in Denmark when he LIVED in East Flyland with his parents, or even in Lemmer?

This is not like modern times when you take a car/train or plane and drive/fly from your house to your work.

Well, anyway, suppose Lumka-makia is indeed Lemmer.

You have tried to explain it as something like 'to make warm/hot'. If Lemmer was near hot spirings it would sound likely tha that is the right explanation, but as far as I know there are no hot springs near Lemmer.


I am stuck with the knife/sword thing:

Lemmer:

*Worker who helps with the slaughter of a whale
*part of a knife
*part of a sword
*bare blade
*village in Friesland
*wick of lamp/candle

http://www.woorden.org/woord/lemmer

Makia: sword

[Van Gorp]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Now you tell me of an Ee River in Friesland - sheesh. So the mouth of the Ee River was probably where it means as the Emude imo. I waste so much time on here.

http://www.ancientsi...District/812832


I can't find much on it - is it some other Ee name, like is it the same as the Ems, Eems or any other river or just the Ee river and do you have any info on it - I have to do bed now.

At Harlingen (where a river comes out) it looks like it says Lumkereke or something, what do you reckon? Harlingen looks very close to Flyland. Where is Lemster?

Hi Puzzler,

Another possibility is the mouth of the river Aa (Albis) in Northern France (Amuthon is believed by some related to this environment).
See Delahaye, Ijpelaan, Jacques Fermaut for their insights ...
Hardinghen is also a placename in the environment.

FYI only.