11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 October 2010 - 04:19 PM, said:

Wagrum is tricky but there is a Wagrum in Austria.

And what is it doing there??

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 October 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

So you are suggesting that a word like 'bedjam' changed into 'bedrum'?? Eventually????

Yes.

BED: Originating from the Proto-Germanic "bedjam," meaning "sleeping place dug in the ground,"
http://qualitycheapf...e.blogspot.com/

The word shouldn't even be translated as bed room, the word bedjam really just means sleeping place. It's not bedjam rum.  The English word in the OLB really should just translate to bed or sleeping place.

Speaking of bed, that is where I'm headed right now....

[The Puzzler]

It reminded me of another word to do with bed...pyJAMas.  You can bet your booties this word would derive from Proto-Germanic jam in bedJAM.  Now, really, I'm off to put my pyjamas on...

ie: earthen cot.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 October 2010 - 04:35 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 October 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

Yes.

BED: Originating from the Proto-Germanic "bedjam," meaning "sleeping place dug in the ground,"
http://qualitycheapf...e.blogspot.com/

The word shouldn't even be translated as bed room, the word bedjam really just means sleeping place. It's not bedjam rum.  The English word in the OLB really should just translate to bed or sleeping place.

Speaking of bed, that is where I'm headed right now....

Yes Puzz, I think I know by now where the word 'bed' came from.

But I still think it's impossible 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedrum', and then also meaning nothing but bed.

Sweet dreams.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 October 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

It reminded me of another word to do with bed...pyJAMas.  You can bet your booties this word would derive from Proto-Germanic jam in bedJAM.  Now, really, I'm off to put my pyjamas on...

ie: earthen cot.

"The word "pajama" was incorporated into the English language from Persian. The word originally derives from the Persian word پايجامه Payjama meaning "leg garment."

Yeah, you better go sleep now.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 October 2010 - 04:36 PM, said:

"The word "pajama" was incorporated into the English language from Persian. The word originally derives from the Persian word پايجامه Payjama meaning "leg garment."

Yeah, you better go sleep now.

OK, incorporated into the English language doesn't mean it is where the word actually derived from.
Maybe I got it wrong or maybe Persian is derived from IE, which it is, like German.

Indo-European languages are spoken by almost three billion native speakers,[2] the largest number for any recognised language family. Of the top 20 contemporary languages in terms of native speakers according to SIL Ethnologue, twelve are Indo-European: Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, German, Marathi, French, Italian, Punjabi, and Urdu
http://en.wikipedia....opean_languages

The word "pyjama" is a variant of "pajama" (पजामा/پاجامہ) which was incorporated into the English language during British Raj from Hindustani (the progenitor language of modern-day Urdu and Hindi).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajamas

But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place.

Tomorrow.  

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 October 2010 - 05:04 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 09 October 2010 - 05:02 PM, said:

OK, incorporated into the English language doesn't mean it is where the word actually derived from.
Maybe I got it wrong or maybe Persian is derived from IE, which it is, like German.

Indo-European languages are spoken by almost three billion native speakers,[2] the largest number for any recognised language family. Of the top 20 contemporary languages in terms of native speakers according to SIL Ethnologue, twelve are Indo-European: Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, German, Marathi, French, Italian, Punjabi, and Urdu
http://en.wikipedia....opean_languages

The word "pyjama" is a variant of "pajama" (पजामा/پاجامہ) which was incorporated into the English language during British Raj from Hindustani (the progenitor language of modern-day Urdu and Hindi).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajamas

But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place.

Tomorrow.  

Apples and oranges are both round, but they taste different, they grow on very diferent trees, their color is different, they grow in different climates...

Payama/pajama/pyjama is an Indo/Iranian word having to do with pants, and has nothing to do with anything about sleeping. Yes, we westerners use it now when we go to bed (not me, btw, I hate these things).

You know what a 'yam' is? Well, if you don't, it's some kind of tropical root you can eat. Now suppose that yam makes us feel sleepy (full stomach makes one relexed because of the serotonin released after the intake of lots of starch). But you would therefore think that this word 'yam', this root, has linguistic connections with your bedjam...

The English 'sun' and 'son' sound very similar in my Dutch ears, and you won't believe how many times I have to edit my posts just because of that similarity.

But you won't hear me say that because of their similarity they must have the same etymological origin.

The one and only reason you start about this is because pyjama sounds similar to bedjam.

This is not serious, it's nothing but a play with words.

It's horse/bull manure.

"But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place."

If you can prove to me that 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedroom' on linguistic grounds, I'd like to read it.

Linguistics is a university study, it's not kid's play with Lego.

Knowing how to clean a spot on your dress doesn't make you a chemist, knowing how to build a wall with bricks doesn't make you a geologist, knowing how to type a post here doesn't make you a computer expert, and so on.

The last pages made me aware why someone like Jaylemurph hates to participate. You appear to really underestimate what linguistics is all about.

"When it sounds similar, it must have the same origin".

When I start wearing a dress and a handbag doesn't make me a woman, right?





,

Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2010 - 06:12 PM.

[Abramelin]

You know what the modern Frisian word for 'bedroom' is?

Dekstael.

And you do know what the modern words for bedroom are in any Scandinavian language.

NOTHING like bedrum.

Well, why should that be eh? Maybe because they never ever used that word??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2010 - 07:52 PM.

[Otharus]

FYI: I mailed Jensma yesterday asking if he had a reason to believe that Ottema changed his mind about OLB being true before he died.

Having read the first chapter of "Survivors" (I love it Alewyn, but Sandbach´s english translation begs to be improved), I think I know one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to OLB in Holland, and what could be a political reason to ignore, ridicule and suppress it.

(Partly subconscious?) FEAR for FLOODS, as a substantial part of the Netherlands lies below sealevel.

 06map rising sealevel.jpg   126.36K   6 downloads

Edit: people don´t want to be reminded of what is hidden deep down their cultural (and genetic?) memory. Imagine what would happen to the value of real estate if people became more consciously aware of the danger.

Edited by Otharus, 09 October 2010 - 08:28 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 09 October 2010 - 08:22 PM, said:

FYI: I mailed Jensma yesterday asking if he had a reason to believe that Ottema changed his mind about OLB being true before he died.

Having read the first chapter of "Survivors" (I love it Alewyn, but Sandbach´s english translation begs to be improved), I think I know one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to OLB in Holland, and what could be a political reason to ignore, ridicule and suppress it.

(Partly subconscious?) FEAR for FLOODS, as a substantial part of the Netherlands lies below sealevel.

06map rising sealevel.jpg

Otharus, you should have told him there is a 'fierce' discussion about the OLB going on on this site.

If he is anything worth his salt, he should feel challenged.

And fyi, he is not a linguist, he is a historian. I think I proved that here (he made a linguistic mistake even I noticed).

==

I don't think the regular floodings of Dutch territory has anything to do with them believing the OLB or not.

Don't you think the Dutch and/or Frisians would love to believe they were the creators of some grand European culture that influenced the more known ancient cultures, like the Greek, Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Indian cultures?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2010 - 08:36 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 09 October 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

Don't you think the Dutch and/or Frisians would love to believe they were the creators of some grand European culture that influenced the more known ancient cultures, like the Greek, Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Indian cultures?

But they might also want to break free again...

It took our authorities hundreds of years to enslave us.

I find a theory of conspiracy by the authorities to suppress OLB (to protect law and order) more credible than a theory about a few 19th century geniusses having created it and dozens of people having lied about it (sometimes under oath).

I´m not talking about people at the base of the pyramid (the masses), but the few most powerful ones at the top, who profit most of the work of all others under them.

(edit: did you read my edit too? -> threat to our economic system)

Edited by Otharus, 10 October 2010 - 05:47 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 October 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

Apples and oranges are both round, but they taste different, they grow on very diferent trees, their color is different, they grow in different climates...

Payama/pajama/pyjama is an Indo/Iranian word having to do with pants, and has nothing to do with anything about sleeping. Yes, we westerners use it now when we go to bed (not me, btw, I hate these things).

You know what a 'yam' is? Well, if you don't, it's some kind of tropical root you can eat. Now suppose that yam makes us feel sleepy (full stomach makes one relexed because of the serotonin released after the intake of lots of starch). But you would therefore think that this word 'yam', this root, has linguistic connections with your bedjam...

The English 'sun' and 'son' sound very similar in my Dutch ears, and you won't believe how many times I have to edit my posts just because of that similarity.

But you won't hear me say that because of their similarity they must have the same etymological origin.

The one and only reason you start about this is because pyjama sounds similar to bedjam.

This is not serious, it's nothing but a play with words.

It's horse/bull manure.

"But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place."

If you can prove to me that 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedroom' on linguistic grounds, I'd like to read it.

Linguistics is a university study, it's not kid's play with Lego.

Knowing how to clean a spot on your dress doesn't make you a chemist, knowing how to build a wall with bricks doesn't make you a geologist, knowing how to type a post here doesn't make you a computer expert, and so on.

The last pages made me aware why someone like Jaylemurph hates to participate. You appear to really underestimate what linguistics is all about.

"When it sounds similar, it must have the same origin".

When I start wearing a dress and a handbag doesn't make me a woman, right?





,

So pyjamas comes from Persian. It was a bit of a word game. It was a short add on post with no backup, just a thought. That the word jam is in it did seem to maybe point to a relation to bedjam. Í don't claim to make any great linguistic connection there really. I did think it could be but maybe it's not then.

However that bedjam, for sleeping place on the ground is an IE language and so is Persian makes me wonder of the original source of the Persian word, it sort of reminds of me of Himmellia.

Anyway, I'll get off pyjamas for now and agree I played on words.



But I won't give up on bedjam quite so easy.

I have thought some more on it so here is what I think as of today.

Bedjam was sleeping place in the ground, an earthen cot. So at some point we stopped lying on the earth for our bed and lay on an object up off the ground, so the sleeping place was not actually in the ground.


In Proto-Germanic they were saying bedjam, so after they stop sleeping on the ground it may have become just bed (sleeping place) - but not on the ground.

So bed would mean a sleeping place by then.

It seems bedjam became bed from everything I can read on it, not bedroom as such.

So, then the word rum as I showed the etymology of room must have been added, so I am agreeing with you there that the word does seem to be made up of the 2 parts but it doesn't have to mean it was created like that recently imo.

bedjam - sleeping place in the ground
bed - sleeping place
rum - space

bedrum- sleeping place space.

Used by Germanic and Nordic speakers before being infiltrated by Romans and any Latin words from them.

*jam = wedged in. That would refer to being wedged into the earthen ground cot, it was a place to wedge in for the night. Once we stopped wedging into the space in the ground that part would have been dropped from the word bedjam imo.
**jamb jamb
early 14c., from O.Fr. jambe "pier, side post of a door," originally "a leg, shank," from L.L. gamba "leg, (horse's) hock" (see gambol).
http://www.etymonlin....php?search=jam
There you can even see how jamb can mean leg. Maybe I can add to pyjamas after all. Later.

PS; Sorry, all I had was Lego, but I have lots of it, 3 kids and all...

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 October 2010 - 06:17 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 10 October 2010 - 05:44 AM, said:

But they might also want to break free again...

It took our authorities hundreds of years to enslave us.

I find a theory of conspiracy by the authorities to suppress OLB (to protect law and order) more credible than a theory about a few 19th century geniusses having created it and dozens of people having lied about it (sometimes under oath).

I'm pretty much thinking this same thing.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 10 October 2010 - 05:57 AM, said:

bedjam - sleeping place in the ground
bed - sleeping place
rum - space

bedrum- sleeping place space.

[The Puzzler]

Here's the problem Abe with supplying the sort of info you want. There seems to be very little, because no one knew much about Europe before the Romans invaded it and they made such an impact with their language it is hard to know how cultures before them in Europe spoke. No one recorded it or wrote it down, the people were not in Asia Minor mixing with everyone and leaving heaps of evidences to find later in great libraries of records.

We don't really know or have record of the way these Bronze Age Nordic European people spoke.

I think it's hard to understand the impact Rome made on the world really, by that I mean Europe really. Not only with language but religion. For thousands of years Rome ruled, it still does to a degree and to challenge the Latin language or to give 'savages' the right to a language before them is just not going to happen imo. In our psyche it is the Ramans and Latin that dominates in Europe but Europe had a good 20,000 years of inventive pre-history creating art like no one else of the time, creating stone structures that even today defy knowledge on what they were used for, so many secrets, hidden away, purposely crushed underfoot by the Roman armies as they marched through, taking everyone, I've read the stories of Boudiccia and Vercingatorix, Celtic and European people who tried as hard as they could to keep the Romans out to no avail.



Otharus put forward the idea this info was being suppressed by Dutch authorities to keep control of the area. This is not far-fetched and imo quite probable. the Dutch are the intruders really and very dominant. I know you are Dutch Abe and I am really not making a derogative jibe at you but I want to bring up stereotypes and believe me I am not offended by stereotyped Australians, cause we are pretty much like that deep down, I know men like Crocodile Dundee but we dont go around riding kangaroos and speaking some weird Americanised version of English like Bart Simpson has us speaking, I hate that episode of the Simpsons though, we are made out be some cockney people from the Wild West.

It's an interpretation of how other cultures see you and with all respect to you Abe, we see the Dutch as arrogant and dominant people. Most Dutch guys we knew are now prison officers or police men, it's like your people has an agenda of dominating others without even realising it probably. Huns remember lol.


That is why, I suppose my views are directed at agreeing with Otharus on the issue of why this would be covered up by the Dutch government as being drivel from nobodies with no history who just fantasise they were part of a significant world history...

Edited for atrocious spelling mistakes.

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 October 2010 - 07:36 AM.