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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#1306    Alewyn

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:53 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 October 2010 - 08:47 PM, said:

You have been proven wrong about the tilting of the earth's axis 2200 BC.

You even admitted you were wrong.

Don't start talking down on people because you feel frustrated.

Admit you  were wrong, and tell us you will publish a new edition of your book with lots of corrections.

*Snip*
You are absolutely the last guy to talk about guts.
I have shown on a few occasions that I am willing to admit that I am wrong - if only to get the debate moving in order to come to a conclusion. I have even on occasion apologised to somebody here.
Have you ever admitted that you were wrong or did you ever apologise for your extremely poor behaviour? No, you hide behind the fact that you are permanently bombed out of your mind. Why don't you start showing some guts and sober up so you can face life head on?
And no, I do not feel frustrated. I just do not see any benefits in debating with people who are so cemented into an opinion that they have lost all sense of logic, analytical and lateral thinking and deductive reasoning. This was exactly the same mentality that got people burned at the stakes for not admiting that the earth was flat nor the centre of the universe.
As for the "many" mistakes: you have only been able to pick up some "questionable" speculation on my side in chapter 1 of my book. What about the rest?
BTW. I recall that you told everybody here that your brother bought you my book. What made you change your story?
Just for the record: On a few occasions you expressed the view that you would have liked to read my book. You pleaded so much poverty, however, that I took pity on you and sent you a copy. For that I realy don't expect your undying devotion or loyalty. In fact, you don't owe me anything.


#1307    TheSearcher

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:49 AM

Out of curiosity, Alewyn, have you completely put aside the idea of the 2200 event, you describe, being a Bond event, instead of the result of an hypothetical impact and subsequent crust sliding over the mantle?

There is more proof and evidence of Bond events and their cyclical nature, than there is of the crust sliding over mantle at the same period of time. Also, the dates seem to correspond a lot better.

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#1308    Otharus

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:54 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 13 October 2010 - 06:53 AM, said:

I just do not see any benefits in debating with people who are so cemented into an opinion that they have lost all sense of logic, analytical and lateral thinking and deductive reasoning. This was exactly the same mentality that got people burned at the stakes for not admiting that the earth was flat nor the centre of the universe.
:tu:

FYI: I spent all yesterday in the archive that houses the OLB and a lot of publications and documents about it (Tresoar in Leeuwarden). Made some interesting copies. Im at chapter 5 of "Survivors" and loving it.

One thing Id like to share already;
Jensma about his thesis on OLB in Volkrant interview 23-12-2004 by Jan Blokker:

"Hier is inderdaad geen juridisch bewijs geleverd, maar -hopelijk op een voor de lezer en de toekomstige onderzoeker bevredigende manier- een hypothese getoetst."

-> He admitted that his thesis did not prove anything, that its only a tested hypothesis.


#1309    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:40 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 13 October 2010 - 06:53 AM, said:

You are absolutely the last guy to talk about guts.
I have shown on a few occasions that I am willing to admit that I am wrong - if only to get the debate moving in order to come to a conclusion. I have even on occasion apologised to somebody here.
Have you ever admitted that you were wrong or did you ever apologise for your extremely poor behaviour? No, you hide behind the fact that you are permanently bombed out of your mind. Why don't you start showing some guts and sober up so you can face life head on?
And no, I do not feel frustrated. I just do not see any benefits in debating with people who are so cemented into an opinion that they have lost all sense of logic, analytical and lateral thinking and deductive reasoning. This was exactly the same mentality that got people burned at the stakes for not admiting that the earth was flat nor the centre of the universe.
As for the "many" mistakes: you have only been able to pick up some "questionable" speculation on my side in chapter 1 of my book. What about the rest?
BTW. I recall that you told everybody here that your brother bought you my book. What made you change your story?
Just for the record: On a few occasions you expressed the view that you would have liked to read my book. You pleaded so much poverty, however, that I took pity on you and sent you a copy. For that I realy don't expect your undying devotion or loyalty. In fact, you don't owe me anything.

In what way did I change my story? I just thanked you for sending the book, like Puzzler and I think Otharus did (and another Dutch person many pages ago who posted just once in this thread). I am reading the book, btw.

And I am not fiercely stubbornly holding on to my opinion, I just do not see proof for a more positive opinion.

I have said in the Doggerland thread that I really wished the OLB was nothing but a true account/old manuscript of ancient history. Why would I wish that? But I am just not convinced it is, and I haven't read anything here to change my mind. If a similar document shows up, using the same 'running script', but from let's say Poland, and it would be proven it was as old at it is supposed to be, I would welcome it. I remember I even said in this thread "I will send Alewyn a bottle of Sonnema Beereburg" if that would ever happen.

With "many mistakes" I do not mean your interpretation of the OLB, but mistakes made during the transliteration from the running script to Latin script. And then the errors made in Sandbach's (and other English translators) translation from Ottema's Dutch translation.

About admitting being wrong: I have done many times, but I post in quite a few forums here and I assume in forums you never visit.

Funny thing: I admitted being wrong about the "Balda Sea"...

About my personal state of mind: don't think I am constantly hammered as Otharus seems to suggest, and yes, I have on occasion excused myself for my behaviour.


#1310    Otharus

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:32 PM

View PostOtharus, on 12 October 2010 - 06:08 AM, said:

That is not true, I just said it begs for improvement.
So do the translations by Ottema and Jensma in my opinion (the others I don´t know).
An example to clarify
(OLB page 6; FORMA SKEEDNISE or "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" p. 312; Chapter II, pt.10/11):
Attached File  ringashjaripweron.JPG   23.43K   15 downloads
http://picasaweb.goo...feat=directlink

"... RING AS HJA RIP WEERON KREEION HJA FRUUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA. AND NW..."


Note that there is a point (.) between "DRAMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

The translations:

Ottema 1876 (dutch):
"Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda.
Haat trad tot haar binnen."


Sandbach 1876 (english):
"As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them."


Wirth 1933 (german):
(He just left out "RING ... DRAMA"!!!)
"Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein..."

Overwijn 1941 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vreugde en genoegen in de dromen van Wralda.
Geneugte kwam tot haar."


Jensma 1992 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen ze vreugde en plezier in de dromen van Wralda.
Een spits trad in hun binnen, ..."


Snyman 1998 (afrikaans):
"En toe hulle volgroeid was, het hulle vreugde en genoegdoening geput uit die visioene van Wralda.
Haat het (egter) hulle harte binnegedring."


Jensma 2006 (dutch):
"Zo rap als ze rijp waren, kregen ze vreugde en genoten in Wralda's extase.
Gelukzaligheid trad tot hen binnen, ..."


de Heer 2008 (dutch):
"Zodra zij rijp waren kregen zij vreugde en genoegen en dromen.
Wralda's licht trad bij hen binnen, ..."


Note that de Heer (2008) is the first to correctly put the point between "dromen" and "Wralda´s".

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

DISCUSSION
Ottema must have thought of the latin word "ODIUM" (meaning hatred) when he translated OD.
Od/Odr is a nordic root word meaning spirit, but in mythology is also the name of Freya´s lover or husband.
If I remember well, "ad" or "ath" is a root word meaning: branch of a (family) tree.

Logically, "od" might also have meant penis, semen or DNA, because after "od" penetrated the three young women, they became pregnant... It was probably an ambiguous, poetic word.

In my opinion it makes a huge difference if a creation myth says that our oldest ancestors were born out of hatred, or out of something more natural and hopefully even loving.

I´m not trained to be a translator, but if you´d ask me, I would improvise this:

"Soon as they were ripe, they begot dreams of ´fruits and nuts´ (fertility, procreation).
Wralda's rod penetrated them, ..."


Edited by Otharus, 13 October 2010 - 12:55 PM.


#1311    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:08 PM

"... RING AS HJA RIP WEERON KREEION HJA FRUUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA. AND NW..."

You say it's a dot between DRAMA and WR.ALDA.S , but in the image you posted I see an underscore/line, connecting DRAMA and WR.ALDA.

But whatever it is, a dot or an underscore, it shows how easy it is to make errors during the transliteration.


==

EDIT:

*-od-ie. afries., Sb.: Vw.: s. kle-n

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-O.pdf

So there is a word, 'od-ie' in old frisian (afries = alt fries), but I don't understand the explanation of the word in this German pdf.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2010 - 01:10 PM.


#1312    Essan

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:38 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 11 October 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

I think I should clarify a few points here:

To Cormac:
1. The 2193 BC / 2200 BC event did happen - whatever the cause. The evidence is just too overwhelming to ignore -  from archaeology,  the ancient scribes to modern science.

I am unaware of any significant event around that time frame that affected the globe, though some minor impact is by no means out of the questions.

Any change in axial tilt would have had massive ramifications for global climate patterns.  Unless, miraculously, the Earth shifted back to its original tilt within a few decades then such shifts, whether to warmer, colder, drier or wetter, would stand out strongly in palynological records (amongst others).  There ought also be a clear change apparent in dendrochronological records  (ie tree rings subsequent to the Event being distinctly smaller or larger to those prior, according to how the climate shifted).  And there ought also be clear correlation in ice and lake cores, but indicative of climate shifts and fallout from the impact.  I would suggest these are all far more credible sources than myth or even archaeology.

If I were to guess a time frame for any such major Holocene event then the obvious period would be ~5.2ky  There were a number of noted climatic shifts around the world at this time (which in turn may have prompted the setting up of the world's first recognised civilisations).  It's currently thought that a tipping point was reached around then due to changes in N Hemisphere insolation brought about by slow, subtle, changes in orbit (Milanovitch Cycles) and this in turn led amongst other things to a change in ENSO frequency.  Though there is plenty of scope for discussion on this.

Edited by Essan, 13 October 2010 - 01:42 PM.

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#1313    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:03 PM

View PostEssan, on 13 October 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

(...)

Unless, miraculously, the Earth shifted back to its original tilt within a few decades then such shifts, whether to warmer, colder, drier or wetter, would stand out strongly in palynological records (amongst others).

(...)

This the picture of the event on the cover of Alewyn's book:

Posted Image

(From: http://www.impactsurvivors.com/ )

According to Alewyn the earth's axis had a different tilt before 2193 BC, and after the 'event' the tilt became what it still is now.


#1314    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:27 PM

Yesterday I was re-reading a chpater of an old book of mine, "De Stenen spreken, Het Geheimschrift van de Megalieten Ontcijferd" by R.M de Jonge, and G.F. IJzereef (Jonge, R.M. de, and IJzereef, G.F., De Stenen Spreken, Kosmos Z&K, Utrecht/Antwerpen, 1996 (ISBN 90-215-2846-0) (Dutch) ).

It's a complicated book (not if you are a sailor) and controversial to say the least.

The writers ( a chemist/self-made archeologist, and a professor in archeology) try to prove that many pictographs on West European megalithic structures are nothing but maps to sail/explore the oceans, and that during the mesolithic.

I was interested because, according to them, Doggerland/Dogger Island (as part of a map showing, according to them, the British Islands and the North Sea) is being depicted (during several stadia of its submergence/destruction) on one of those megalithic structures

Later on De Jonge, together with an American writer published his theory in another (english) book, "How the Sungod reached America" ( http://www.howthesungod.com/ ).


But a bit of googling made me find another of their theories,

http://www.barry.war...com/Tresse.html
( and here, http://www.barry.war...com/2345BC.html )

THE COMET CATASTROPHE OF c.2345 BC
(The Tresse Grave, Brittany, France)
© Copyright: 18 February 2009
Dr. R.M. de Jonge


Alas, the date is 150 years off.

====

Oh boy, this De Jonge is unstoppable:

Bronze Age Catastrophes

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2010 - 02:51 PM.


#1315    Alewyn

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:18 PM

View PostEssan, on 13 October 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

I am unaware of any significant event around that time frame that affected the globe, though some minor impact is by no means out of the questions.

Please see post #1296 on page 87 (also http://www.sis-group.org.uk/) as well as the 4.2ka B.P Bond Event.

As for an "apparent" shift in the poles, I based my speculation on two ancient writings namely "The Book of Enoch" which claimed that "the earth was thrown of its pillar" and "the earth became inclined" (or something along those lines) and the Oera Linda Book which stated that "before the bad times came, the sun rose higher". My approach is that, if these ancient scribes were correct, how do we explain this?
As pointed out by Cormac via Steven Dutch, the earths celestial axial tilt could not be changed by an asteroid impact without totally destroying all life on earth.
The next train of thought is then to look at resonance in earths crust caused by a lessor cosmic impact which could have caused the crust to "slip" on the Mantle.


#1316    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:56 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 13 October 2010 - 04:18 PM, said:

The next train of thought is then to look at resonance in earths crust caused by a lessor cosmic impact which could have caused the crust to "slip" on the Mantle.

Are you suggesting resonance caused by a multitude of impacts, occurring during constant intervals of time? Like the Shoemaker-Levy comet that broke up into a train of fragments and impacted one after the other on Jupiter?

Something like the Tollmann Hypothesis?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2010 - 04:58 PM.


#1317    Abramelin

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:06 PM

EDIT

Too personal.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 October 2010 - 10:41 PM.


#1318    Otharus

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:49 AM

View PostOtharus, on 13 October 2010 - 12:32 PM, said:

"... RING AS HJA RIP WEERON KREEION HJA FRUUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA. AND NW..."


"Soon as they were ripe, they begot dreams of ´fruits and nuts´ (fertility, procreation).
Wralda's rod penetrated them, ..."

On second thoughts, I would not try to translate "OD", but rather place a footnote.

"Wralda's od penetrated them, ..."

Nowhere in literature about OLB have I found the following, which I think is rather interesting:

The Odic force (also called Od [õd], Odyle, Önd, Odes, Odylic, Odyllic, or Odems) is the name given in the mid-19th century to a hypothetical vital energy or life force by Baron Carl von Reichenbach.
Source: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Odic_force

Edited by Otharus, 14 October 2010 - 04:51 AM.


#1319    Alewyn

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:00 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 October 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

Are you suggesting resonance caused by a multitude of impacts, occurring during constant intervals of time? Like the Shoemaker-Levy comet that broke up into a train of fragments and impacted one after the other on Jupiter?

Something like the Tollmann Hypothesis?


.
I was not aware of the Tollmann Hypothesis but yes, something like Shoemaker-Levy.
Somebody suggested that the 2010 Chilean earthquake moved earth's poles very slightly (8 cm). We also have an abundance of evidence of tectonic plate movements which clearly indicates that earth's crust can move independently from the core and mantle.
Current theories have it that earth's inner (solid)core floats in a sea of molten magma with guestimate temperatures varying anything from 5500 deg C to 9000 deg C. This molten outer core (as well as the molten lower mantle) would then act as a "lubricant" that preserves the core's rotation and celestial axis against anything that my be happening in or on the crust. Any polar shifts that we may see can then perhaps be better termed as "apparent" shifts affecting only earths crust. Earth's inner angular velocity, axial tilt and magnetism(?) would not be affected.
When a large (say +1 km dia) asteroid strike earth (30 km/s or 108 000 km/hr) it could create resonance which greatly increases the shock wave amplitudes. The resultant earthquakes, plate movements, tsunamis, etc would be catastrophic but not to the extent of wiping out all life.
Consider the 1960 Chilean earthquake. Whilst the structural damage was enormous, the vast majority of people survived. Now project this devastation onto a global scale and add some giant tsunamis. Most coastal and low lying structures would be totally obliterated but further inland most people (and animals) would survive.
Structural engineers and architecs appreciate the enormous effects that resonance could have but many others grossly
underestimate the destructive power of forced resonance.
It is interesting to note the various observations that archaeologists made in the Middle East. Claude Schaeffer (1948) believed that the demise of civilization was caused by earthquakes. Harvey Weiss commented on the increased salt content of the ground. Marie Agnis Courty found evidence of volcanic ash and a total absence of earthworm activity. Now you add to this the description by old scribes what would appear to be cosmic impacts and, to my mind it all hangs together.


#1320    TheSearcher

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:18 AM

View PostEssan, on 13 October 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

I am unaware of any significant event around that time frame that affected the globe, though some minor impact is by no means out of the questions.

Any change in axial tilt would have had massive ramifications for global climate patterns.  Unless, miraculously, the Earth shifted back to its original tilt within a few decades then such shifts, whether to warmer, colder, drier or wetter, would stand out strongly in palynological records (amongst others).  There ought also be a clear change apparent in dendrochronological records  (ie tree rings subsequent to the Event being distinctly smaller or larger to those prior, according to how the climate shifted).  And there ought also be clear correlation in ice and lake cores, but indicative of climate shifts and fallout from the impact.  I would suggest these are all far more credible sources than myth or even archaeology.

If I were to guess a time frame for any such major Holocene event then the obvious period would be ~5.2ky  There were a number of noted climatic shifts around the world at this time (which in turn may have prompted the setting up of the world's first recognised civilisations).  It's currently thought that a tipping point was reached around then due to changes in N Hemisphere insolation brought about by slow, subtle, changes in orbit (Milanovitch Cycles) and this in turn led amongst other things to a change in ENSO frequency.  Though there is plenty of scope for discussion on this.

Could it be a combination of a Bond event and an event in the Milanovitch cycles? It would explain  a lot if it were the case.

Edited by TheSearcher, 14 October 2010 - 07:19 AM.

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