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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#1336    Otharus

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:36 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 June 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

It's like a clever 12 years old kid concocted the story.
Why is the 'Oera Linda Book' so dispised, hated, feared and/or misunderstood in Holland?

For a better understanding of the controversy I will translate and post a few more fragments of publications.

The following is taken from:

The Oera-Linda-Book in Germany and here
published by Dr. M. de Jong in 1939.

“When we don't limit our view to the controversies that kept us busy here in Holland, we must admit, that the OLB begot a significance because of the war in Germany, that no one ever could have dreamt of. In the spiritual revolution, that occurred there in the last decennia and is still unfolding, it played an important role. The OLB has been the highlight of passionate discussions about national-socialist principles and philosophy. A model for living and history, women’s place in society, democracy and authority, pacifism, the Slavic East front, racial theory and the Nordic race, even the Jewish question, were discussed. It’s a remarkable fact, that the OLB seems to appeal to profound feelings, that the German people have developped in their fight against alien influences and in favour of their own Germanic culture. Science had already succesfully resisted against the Christian-Latin historiographic image of old-Germanic civilisation’s inferiority and of the blessings brought to the supposed barbarians by the Romans and the Roman Catholic church. The aureole of great-christener Charles “the Great” faded away. People hoped to find traces of their own old civilisation, their own spiritual heritage, even an original Nordic monotheism.
This now, many believed to find, in the footsteps of Herman Wirth, together with lots of other ancestrial heritage, in the OLB, specifically in the so-called Wralda-mysticism.”


original dutch text:
Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier
“Wanneer wij onzen gezichtskring niet beperken tot de strijdvragen, die ons hier in Nederland bezig gehouden hebben, dan zullen we moeten erkennen, dat het oera-Linda-Boek door den strijd in Duitschland een beteekenis heeft gekregen, waarvan niemand ooit had kunnen droomen. In de geestesrevolutie, die daar in de laatste tientallen jaren heeft plaats gehad en nog steeds bezig is zich te voltrekken, heeft het een niet onbelangrijke rol gespeeld. In bewogen discussies over nationaal-socialistische beginselen en nationaal-socialistische levenshouding is het O.L.B. pièce de résistance geweest. Levens- en geschiedbeschouwing, de plaats van de vrouw in de samenleving, democratie en leiders-principe, pacifisme, het Slavische oostfront, rassenleer en het Noordsche ras, ja ook het Jodenvraagstuk, zijn daarbij aan de orde geweest. Het is een merkwaardig feit, dat het O.L.B. schijnt te appeleeren aan zeer krachtige gevoelens, die zich bij het Duitsche volk ontwikkeld hebben in zijn strijd tegen vreemde invloeden en voor een eigen Germaansche cultuur. Niet zonder succes had de wetenschap zich reeds eerder verzet tegen de door een Christelijk-Latijnsche geschiedschrijving opgedrongen voorstellingen van de minderwaardigheid der oud-Germaansche beschaving en de zegeningen, door de Romeinen en de Roomsche kerk aan vermeende barbaren gebracht. Het aureool van den groot-kerstenaar Karel “den Grooten” verbleekte. Men zocht naar kernen van eigen oude beschaving, naar een eigen geestelijk erfdeel, zelfs naar een oorspronkelijk Noordsch monotheïsme.
Dit nu meenden velen, op het voetspoor van Herman Wirth, met zooveel ander voorvaderlijk erfgoed, in het Oera-Linda-Boek te vinden, en wel in de zoogenaamde Wralda-mystiek.”

Edited by Otharus, 16 October 2010 - 07:37 PM.


#1337    Abramelin

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

Hi Otharus,

On page 2 of this thread Swede asked, "In what manner was this quite precise date (2193 BC) determined?".

And I answered him with a quote from the Wiki page about the OLB,

"The book articulates the first known example of the concept of root races (though it does not call them that), and probably influenced H.P. Blavatsky to develop her own, much more elaborate ideas on the subject, as outlined in The Secret Doctrine (1888). It also mentions Atland (the name given to Atlantis by the 17th century scholar Olof Rudbeck), which was supposedly submerged in 2193 BC, the same year as 19th century Dutch and Frisian almanacs, following traditional Biblical chronology, gave for Noah's flood."
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Oera_Linda

Today I thought, let's try to find this 19th century Dutch/Frisian almanac, but failed.

Can you tell us more about this date that was supposed to be copied from those almanacs?

==


Quote

Why is the 'Oera Linda Book' so dispised, hated, feared and/or misunderstood in Holland?


I think you are exaggerating somewhat here... the OLB is not 'hated' or 'dispised' or even 'feared', come on.

The worst people in The Netherlands feel about the OLB is ridicule.

Why are you out to make it much more and much worse than it really is??

And you know as well as I do that the OLB already received heavy criticism soon after it was published. It didn't just start during/after WWII.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 October 2010 - 08:03 PM.


#1338    Otharus

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 09:52 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 October 2010 - 07:57 PM, said:

Can you tell us more about this date that was supposed to be copied from those almanacs?
This must have been the "Enkhuizer Almanak".
Good idea, I'll look it up one of these days in the Enkhuizer Almanak Museum.

View PostAbramelin, on 16 October 2010 - 07:57 PM, said:

The worst people in The Netherlands feel about the OLB is ridicule.
And you know as well as I do that the OLB already received heavy criticism soon after it was published.
It didn't just start during/after WWII.
Yes, see my post 1325;

Beckering Vinckers' (1876): "I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

The sad thing is that he not only aggressively 'ridiculed' OLB but also translator/ publisher Ottema, who was practically excommunicated, got isolated, became paranoid and suicidal as a result.

Initially some proud influential Frisians seem to have felt insulted because their paradigm of Frisian history, culture, religion and language was challenged.
OLB language was too 'modern' for them; it had words that resembled Dutch and English.
It was not enough 'pure Frisian'. (possible explanation?)

WWII added a new dimension to the controversy for obvious reasons.

Two more fragments to illustrate how 'believers' were not only ridiculed (1972), but even discredited (2004).

S.J. van der Molen (1972)

"From time to time, the ever unknown author of this manuscript succeeds in troubling minds and making victims. The youngest victim (apparently not in years: the man already published in 1940) is dr. phil. Frans J. Los, who recently published: The Ura Linda Manuscripts as Source of History"

Original text, taken from "Doctor schiet Ura Linda-'bok'", published 11-11-1972 in Leeuwarder Courant

"Van tijd tot tijd slaagt de nog steeds onbekend gebleven maker van dit geschrift er in geesten te verwarren en slachtoffers te maken. Het jongste slachtoffer (kennelijk niet in jaren: de man publiceerde al in 1940) is dr. phil. Frans J. Los, die ... zojuist liet verschijnen: Die Ura Linda Handschriften als Geschichtsquelle"

Jensma (2004; page 17)

"This Ottema was followed by a long row of believers of suspicious character. Of them SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is most notorious, but he was certainly not the only one. Theosophists, nazi's, New Agers and right extremists of various sorts explained and still explain this OLB as an authentic and important source for our knowledge of western civilisation."

Original text:

"Deze Ottema kreeg een lange stoet van gelovigen van bedenkelijk allooi achter zich aan. De SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is van hen de beruchtste, maar hij was zeker niet de enige. Theosofen, nazi's, New Agers en Nieuwe Rechtsen van allerlei pluimage verklaarden en verklaren dit Oera Linda-boek nog steeds voor een authentieke en belangrijke bron voor onze kennis van de westerse beschaving."

Edited by Otharus, 17 October 2010 - 09:55 PM.


#1339    Alewyn

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:22 AM

View PostOtharus, on 15 October 2010 - 10:04 AM, said:

Yesterday I asked Dr Jacob van Sluis, specialist at Tresoar, the library that houses OLB:

"Is there a survey of the scientific research that was done to establish the age of the paper and are reports of this research available?"

His answer:
"Recently a thorough examination was done of paper, ink etc. of OLB. The results have been collected, but are not published yet. That is ment to happen, but Tresoar is only sideways involved. So I cannot promise anything. I only know that the publication is 'in the pipeline'."

Original in dutch:
vraag 14-10-2010: "Is er een overzicht beschikbaar van het wetenschappelijk onderzoek dat is verricht naar de ouderdom van het papier en zijn hiervan verslagen beschikbaar?"
antwoord 14-10-2010: "Er is recentelijk grondig onderzoek gedaan naar het papier, inkt e.d. van het OLB. De resultaten daarvan zijn verzameld, maar nog niet gepubliceerd. Dat is wel de bedoeling, maar Tresoar is daar slechts zijdelings bij betrokken. Ik kan u dus niets beloven. Ik weet alleen dat de beoogde bundel "in de pijplijn" zit."
It would realy be interesting to know what examination was done, by whom and exactly when. Was this examination done in secret or was it widely made known and unbiased?
If it was found that the manuscript dates from the 19th century, then one would not expect a delay in publishing the results. The manuscript would in all probability then be a fraud - end of story.
On the other hand, if the findings point to an old manuscript, quite a few reputations will be scarred. This could then be a reason for any delay such as there may be. (At this stage we have no evidence or reason to believe that this may be the case).  To be credible, therefore, one would expect a very open process.


#1340    Otharus

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:39 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 19 October 2010 - 07:22 AM, said:

It would realy be interesting to know what examination was done, by whom and exactly when. Was this examination done in secret or was it widely made known and unbiased?
If it was found that the manuscript dates from the 19th century, then one would not expect a delay in publishing the results. The manuscript would in all probability then be a fraud - end of story.
On the other hand, if the findings point to an old manuscript, quite a few reputations will be scarred. This could then be a reason for any delay such as there may be. (At this stage we have no evidence or reason to believe that this may be the case).  To be credible, therefore, one would expect a very open process.
I will make further inquiries. (Or has one of you already done so?)

Even if paper and ink turn out to be new I will still consider it more credible to be a copy of (an) older source(s), than the result of a 19th century conspiracy.

Inspired by Alewyn's book - that I finished last week - I made a new video yesterday, presenting a theory that is dawning in me.

I know it may be a bit cryptic to some, but that is my style;
I like to leave some space for the imagination of the viewer.
And I will make improved versions later.




#1341    Alewyn

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

View PostOtharus, on 20 October 2010 - 05:39 AM, said:

I will make further inquiries. (Or has one of you already done so?)

Even if paper and ink turn out to be new I will still consider it more credible to be a copy of (an) older source(s), than the result of a 19th century conspiracy.

Inspired by Alewyn's book - that I finished last week - I made a new video yesterday, presenting a theory that is dawning in me.

I know it may be a bit cryptic to some, but that is my style;
I like to leave some space for the imagination of the viewer.
And I will make improved versions later.


Just an observation on your video (3min.19sec.)
“Floris V (1256-1296) Lost battles against the West Frisians in 1272 and 1282, but occupied the land after it was struck by a flood in 1287”.
This would have been the “St Lucias Flood” of 14 December 1287 when, according to my sources, between 50 000 and 80 000 people were killed. (Survivors of the Great Tsunami – page 203)


#1342    Alewyn

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:29 PM

Otharus,
LOL. What happened to the “Hoax Theorists”? Since you started showing their high priest to have feet of clay, their silence is deafening.

We should try to understand their position, though. After attacking and ridiculing “The Oera Linda Book”, “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” and myself with such enthusiasm (nay, hysteria) one cannot reasonably expect them now to recant or admit their folly, can we? After all, very few people in this world have the stature to see the other man’s point of view let alone admitting that they themselves may be wrong.

Even reading “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” beyond my speculation in Chapter 1 may just cast doubt in their minds or destroy their fantasies regarding fables and mythology; such as Romulus and Remus who had a wolf as a nanny. Perhaps the OLB’s account of history is just too realistic?

I think if they had to buy the book like you, they would have made the effort to read it.  On the other hand, though, I must admit that reading and understanding “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” require some concentration.


#1343    Abramelin

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 08:01 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 20 October 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

Otharus,
LOL. What happened to the “Hoax Theorists”? Since you started showing their high priest to have feet of clay, their silence is deafening.

We should try to understand their position, though. After attacking and ridiculing “The Oera Linda Book”, “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” and myself with such enthusiasm (nay, hysteria) one cannot reasonably expect them now to recant or admit their folly, can we? After all, very few people in this world have the stature to see the other man’s point of view let alone admitting that they themselves may be wrong.

Even reading “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” beyond my speculation in Chapter 1 may just cast doubt in their minds or destroy their fantasies regarding fables and mythology; such as Romulus and Remus who had a wolf as a nanny. Perhaps the OLB’s account of history is just too realistic?

I think if they had to buy the book like you, they would have made the effort to read it.  On the other hand, though, I must admit that reading and understanding “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” require some concentration.


Just call me by my name, Alewyn.

And the reason I do not reply to what Otharus posted is because he is still busy creating what must be a great revelation.

I can wait.

--

EDIT:

I am more the guy of the direct approach.

I think if they had to buy the book like you,

Yes, yes, you sent it to me for free. And that was because I had been whining about my finances here. I didn't say it in the open - I said my brother was willing to give it to me as present - because I didn't want to give the other members here the impression that whining about money would make you send your book for free.

But if you are going to hint at what we talked about in private, then I will say here that you were more or less convinced *I* would become convinced about the OLB being a true historical account, and even that I would be willing to publish a translation into Dutch.

Well, although I haven't read the whole book yet, I did read like 80%.

And I am disappointed, because most of your great claims have already been dealt with in this thread.

I know you don't believe me when I say it, but I wish it was different.

And doesn't it bother you that Otharus only talks about the OLB and his ideas about it, and NOT about YOUR book??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 October 2010 - 08:18 PM.


#1344    Otharus

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:30 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 20 October 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

And doesn't it bother you that Otharus only talks about the OLB and his ideas about it, and NOT about YOUR book??
That I have not commented on "Survivors" yet, is that I am still overwhelmed and processing everything.

Did I not say the book inspired me to make a video, which was like a big creative egg I had wanted to lay for a long time?

Congratulations Alewyn with the treasure you put together!

Ofcourse I have thoughts about it that I will share later, maybe in private first.

Let's wait till the others have read it 100 procent and taken some time to digest it.

I'm curious what you think about the theory in my video.


#1345    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:41 PM

Quote

...one cannot reasonably expect them now to recant or admit their folly, can we?

What folly? Your theory of an axial tilt of the Earth has already been shown to be wrong and the idea of a significant event having happened specifically in 2193 BC has more holes than Swiss Cheese, as it's currently unevidenced. Yet you've bounced from the specific date (2193 BC) to a general time frame of a few hundred years or so, to implying that the general time frame validates the specific date (somehow). It doesn't.

Considering that this thread is supposed to be about the OLB and its alleged connection to a specific event, with a specific date, and that that self-same event is unevidenced in the archaeological or geological record, it rather lays to rest the purpose of this thread IMO.

It would appear to me that a discussion of the integrity, or lack thereof, of the OLB would better be served by a thread of its own.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1346    Abramelin

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 10:21 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 20 October 2010 - 09:41 PM, said:


It would appear to me that a discussion of the integrity, or lack thereof, of the OLB would better be served by a thread of its own.

cormac

Otharus never talks about Alewyn's book, Puzzler never does, some other guy who once posted in this thread and bought Alewyn's book never does........

Yeah, the OLB should get a thread of it's own. Well, it already has, sort off... THIS thread.


#1347    Alewyn

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 01:26 AM

View PostOtharus, on 20 October 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

That I have not commented on "Survivors" yet, is that I am still overwhelmed and processing everything.

Did I not say the book inspired me to make a video, which was like a big creative egg I had wanted to lay for a long time?

Congratulations Alewyn with the treasure you put together!

Ofcourse I have thoughts about it that I will share later, maybe in private first.

Let's wait till the others have read it 100 procent and taken some time to digest it.

I'm curious what you think about the theory in my video.
Thank you so much for your kind words Otharus. I think I understand how much it takes to go against entrenched populist ideas; especially on such an emotional subject as this is in the Netherlands.
Have you noticed how this posting of yours is totally ignored by Abe in his subsequent posting? I think you and the other readers will draw their own conclusions from that.
From your video I see that Westfriesland was conquered in 1297 AD.  
In 1902 the mighty British Empire conquered the two tiny Boer Republics of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State in South Africa after a 3 year war. Some 22 000 British soldiers, 4 000 Boer combatants and 26 000 Boer women and children died in the conflict (the women and children died in British concentration camps).
After the war, Dutch and Afrikaans were banned from all schools and public services such as courts, state departments, etc. For the next almost 40 years, Afrikaners could not rise beyond the position of foreman in any industry or state department. There was a deliberate attempt to eradicate Afrikaans. My late father recounted how he was told not to speak “that language” when he would apply for work on the mines.
From what little I know of Frisian history, it seems like the same policy was followed in the Netherlands after 1297 AD. Yet, after more than 700 years they still exist - absolutely marvellous.
Liko Oera Linda’s letter of 803 AD comes to mind:
(For material gain) “they conspire with foreign kings, who know that we are their greatest enemies, because we dare to speak to their people of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes. Therefore they seek to destroy all that we derive from our forefathers, and all that is left of our old customs.”
I can certainly understand that.

I hope somebody will respond to your conclusion in your video that “the language of (the) Oera Linda Book is Overold Dutch – Old (West Frisian) Dutch”. I am afraid I am not qualified to do so.


#1348    Abramelin

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:19 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 21 October 2010 - 01:26 AM, said:

Have you noticed how this posting of yours is totally ignored by Abe in his subsequent posting? I think you and the other readers will draw their own conclusions from that.

I didn't respond, because I expect something more, like Otharus promised to do.

He is busy with something - I know -  so I refrain from responding untill he posted what he had planned to post.

You don't know what is going on, so please stop trying to pretend that you do.

And where is Puzzler or that guy? Both must have read your book two times now....


#1349    Otharus

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 08:44 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 October 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

He is busy with something
Yes, I bought 3 books yesterday to study:

02rand.jpg 01graven.jpg 03oorlog.jpg

Already found something interesting:

"The Frisii Minores lived west of Mare Flevum in what is now North-Holland and the Frisii Maiores lived in nowaday Friesland. These two are archeologically distinguishable by their own type of pottery that has been found between Low-Rhine and Oostergo."

From: "De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen en de Lage Landen" (The Romans and the Low Lands), page 109 (my translation).

Could it be that one of them (Maiores?) were from the group that had come back under guidance of Friso, while the other (Minores?) were original Fryas that had never left. (See "Survivors" chapter 7.)

This would explain why in the east they were already more used to having (male) kings, than in the west. And it would explain the difference between Old-Frisian and Old-'Dutch' (Westfrisian), as suggested in my video.


#1350    Abramelin

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:07 PM

View PostOtharus, on 21 October 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

Yes, I bought 3 books yesterday to study:

Attachment 02rand.jpgAttachment 01graven.jpgAttachment 03oorlog.jpg

Already found something interesting:

"The Frisii Minores lived west of Mare Flevum in what is now North-Holland and the Frisii Maiores lived in nowaday Friesland. These two are archeologically distinguishable by their own type of pottery that has been found between Low-Rhine and Oostergo."

From: "De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen en de Lage Landen" (The Romans and the Low Lands), page 109 (my translation).

Could it be that one of them (Maiores?) were from the group that had come back under guidance of Friso, while the other (Minores?) were original Fryas that had never left. (See "Survivors" chapter 7.)

This would explain why in the east they were already more used to having (male) kings, than in the west. And it would explain the difference between Old-Frisian and Old-'Dutch' (Westfrisian), as suggested in my video.



Man, I posted about the Frisian Maiores and the Minores, many pages ago.

Read the thread, please.

I dont care how many books you bought today, I want to know what you think about Alewyn's book.