11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

mkay, on 30 October 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm from Frisia and I've read this topic for quite a while and I'm truly amazed this thread has gone to 105 pages, because Thet Oera Linda Bok is clearly a forgery, like most of Frisia's history.

One obvious reason not to believe it's authenticity is the paper. The paper used to write the book was at most twenty years old, which was intentionally made to look older. If the book was really copied for generations, than it obviously would have made sense to mention that and that new paper was used instead of making it intentionally look older.

Also, paper was very expensive prior to when the book was written. It wouldn't have been copied that much and if it would truly been deemed that important, it wouldn't have remained in private possession for such a long time and the story would have been at least as much copied and be at least as well known as Jewish mythology was.

Aside from the paper, there are many other reasons to believe that Thet Oera Linda Bok is a forgery. First is linguistics. Old Frisian was well known among Frisian scholars and there would definitely have been people who would have been able to write an extensive narrative in an Old Frisian-ish language or even a plausible precursor of it. François HaverSchmidt definitely would have known that Greece was called Kreklond in Old Frisian, just to name something. I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok, but where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word. These examples are made to look old, but clearly look very modern. I'm greatly interested in Frisian history and linguistics and I've read quite some Old Frisian texts, but Thet Oera Linda Bok is simply too easy to read for a modern Frisian like me.

Thirdly, a great part of Frisian history is a forgery and a big part of Frisian history was invented during the late 19th, early 20th century. I.e. it was very common for Frisians to colour (I will come back to that later, because not all is fake) their history. Frisians are proud people and if nobody can refute their claims, it quickly finds its way in history books. For example, many Frisians will believe that the Frisian flag is hundreds of years old, the flag dates from the late 19th century. It is true that the flag is based on much older Frisian and Germanic heraldry. For once, compare the coat of arms and flag of Frisia to the coat of arms of Denmark. The symbols on the Frisian flag probably have the same ancient origins as the French Fleur-de-Lis. In reality the Frisian flag is a rather modern invention.
Also, many Frisians believe that the Frisian language is very old, preceding many other modern languages (this is even claimed in the Frisian anthem). Fact is that this can easily be disproven. The Old Frisian language developed only in the late first, early second millennium. The Anglo-Saxon language started to develop much earlier.
True, the Frisii were mentioned by Tacitus, but after that the population of the area declined and several other tribes migrated from the east to England, and probably many Frisii travelled with them. Other probably thought that England was too far after all and settled in the region. Of course the Frisii were related to these other tribes and their linguistic kinship was only reinforced during this period of migrations, but the truth is that nobody knows what language the Frisii spoke, which parts of it still have been preserved, how numerous the Frisii were and who is and who isn't a descendant of the Frisii.
Another example which comes to my mind is the tale of Friso, Saxo and Bruno which moved from India and split up in Europe to form different tribes.

Like any other Frisian does, I do find much pleasure every now and then in imagining these stories to be true, but except for proud, Frisians are also realists and when we're presented with the facts there's nothing we can do, but accept them.

Thanks for that, Otharus is also from Frisia and he seems to think it can be true.

The paper has not been tested and even if it is copied recently that is not suprising because it says it has been copied once anyway, it would have been copied over time as the paper got old or wore out. I think that probably Auntie copied this version but that doesn't make it fake.

I should have added, Welcome to UM and thanks for joining in here!

Edited by The Puzzler, 31 October 2010 - 03:46 AM.

[Otharus]

mkay, on 30 October 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm from Frisia...

This guy must be hundreds of years old. I guess he means he lives in Friesland.

Quote

One obvious reason not to believe it's authenticity is the paper.

The only known report of an examination was published in "Nederlandsche Spectator" #32 (5 August 1876). The conclusions were debunked by Ottema in the second edition of his OLB translation in 1876. Some years ago a new examination was started, but still no results have been published. Therefore, it is still possible that the manuscript is what it claimns to be; a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older original.

Quote

... if it would truly been deemed that important, it wouldn't have remained in private possession for such a long time and the story would have been at least as much copied and be at least as well known as Jewish mythology was.

Have you ever heard of the Inquisition?

Quote

... there would definitely have been people... François HaverSchmidt definitely would have...

Jensma often uses terms like this too: "undoubtedly", "without the slightest doubt", "there is no doubt possible" etc. Sure, he will have convinced many people who read the 'Leeuwarder Courant', but not many of his his scientific colleagues. (See my post #1324.) I have read OLB in the original language and all of Jensma's publications (as well as many other) and I am convinced he is wrong.

Quote

I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok...

See, this man bases his 'knowledge' on hearsay and (let me guess) the 'Leeuwarder Courant'.

Quote

... where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word.

Did you know there's plenty of words that are still a mystery, even to Jensma? Others were much later explained because they have survived in other languages like Swedish.

Quote

... there are many other reasons to believe that Thet Oera Linda Bok is a forgery.

I will give you one:

Friesland traditionally is predominantly 'Dutch reformed' ('gereformeerd'; extreme protestant/ calvinistic).

Jensma's theory is that OLB was created to make fun of the Bible and the Christian religion in general.

His first publication (De Vrije Fries LXXII, 1992) about OLB with the title "Lees, leer en waak" (= Read, learn and watch out) starts with two quotes from the christian bible:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect, if that were possible." Marc 13:22
"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning..." Luke 12:35

(In Dutch:
"Want er zullen valse christussen en valse profeten opstaan en zij zullen tekenen en wonderen doen om, ware het mogelijk, de uitverkorenen te verleiden." Marcus 13:22
"Laten uwe lendenen omgord zijn en uw lampen brandende." Lucas 12:35)

My theory is that many christian based Frisians have an aversion against OLB because they believe it's the work of the devil or the antichrist (as a matter speaking).
They basically fear OLB.

[The Puzzler]

I'm absorbing your posts Abe but want to get back to that the whole OLB disaster in Atland sounds like volcanoes.

In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.
The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. This sounds like a volcano to me.

The mountains vomited fire forth out of Twiskland too.

Looking over cormacs list he provided, maybe Vesuvius? This is one eruption:
http://en.wikipedia....ellino_eruption

It would have devastated areas of the Mediterranean...

When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda’s people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda’s land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda’s land.


An area has been submerged but also fire came out of the mountains, so it seems the eruption/s caused a lot of flooding which sank Atland. It caused turmoil in the Meditteranean and in Twiskland where flames came out of the mountains too.

It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

With Vesuvius it says this as an example of what might have occurred in the OLB:
The AD 79 eruption was preceded by a powerful earthquake seventeen years beforehand on 5 February, 62, which caused widespread destruction around the Bay of Naples, and particularly to Pompeii.[29] Some of the damage had still not been repaired when the volcano erupted

A powerful earthquake.
In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying.



Vesuvius has a long historic and literary tradition. It was considered a divinity of the genius type at the time of the eruption of 79 AD: it appears under the inscribed name Vesuvius as a serpent in the decorative frescos of many lararia, or household shrines, surviving from Pompeii. An inscription from Capua[2] to IOVI VESVVIO indicates that he was worshipped as a power of Jupiter; that is, Jupiter Vesuvius.[3]

The historian, Diodorus Siculus, relates a tradition that Hercules, in the performance of his labors, passed through the country of nearby Cumae on his way to Sicily and found there a place called "the Phlegraean Plain" (phlegraion pedion, "plain of fire"), "from a hill which anciently vomited out fire ... now called Vesuvius."[4] It was inhabited by bandits, "the sons of the Earth," who were giants.

The 'hill' anciently vomited out fire, not only that, it was inhabited by 'the sons of Earth' who were GIANTS.

An eruption there would cause much calamity on the Mediterranean. Whether this would transfer to Twiskland (if this is Germany) I'm not sure, but if Vesuvius erupted it may have been a time of unstable geology in the whole of Europe, or Twiskland is not Germany because it doesn't seem to have any volcanoes of recent times or where in Germany or surrounds could a volcano have mountains spewed out fire...?

Edited by The Puzzler, 31 October 2010 - 08:52 AM.

[The Puzzler]

mkay, on 30 October 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok, but where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word. These examples are made to look old, but clearly look very modern. I'm greatly interested in Frisian history and linguistics and I've read quite some Old Frisian texts, but Thet Oera Linda Bok is simply too easy to read for a modern Frisian like me.

So...you haven't read it, but you know it's simply too easy to read.???

Like what? bedrum?

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 31 October 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

This guy must be hundreds of years old. I guess he means he lives in Friesland.


The only known report of an examination was published in "Nederlandsche Spectator" #32 (5 August 1876). The conclusions were debunked by Ottema in the second edition of his OLB translation in 1876. Some years ago a new examination was started, but still no results have been published. Therefore, it is still possible that the manuscript is what it claimns to be; a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older original.


Have you ever heard of the Inquisition?


Jensma often uses terms like this too: "undoubtedly", "without the slightest doubt", "there is no doubt possible" etc. Sure, he will have convinced many people who read the 'Leeuwarder Courant', but not many of his his scientific colleagues. (See my post #1324.) I have read OLB in the original language and all of Jensma's publications (as well as many other) and I am convinced he is wrong.


See, this man bases his 'knowledge' on hearsay and (let me guess) the 'Leeuwarder Courant'.



Did you know there's plenty of words that are still a mystery, even to Jensma? Others were much later explained because they have survived in other languages like Swedish.


I will give you one:

Friesland traditionally is predominantly 'Dutch reformed' ('gereformeerd'; extreme protestant/ calvinistic).

Jensma's theory is that OLB was created to make fun of the Bible and the Christian religion in general.

His first publication (De Vrije Fries LXXII, 1992) about OLB with the title "Lees, leer en waak" (= Read, learn and watch out) starts with two quotes from the christian bible:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect, if that were possible." Marc 13:22
"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning..." Luke 12:35

(In Dutch:
"Want er zullen valse christussen en valse profeten opstaan en zij zullen tekenen en wonderen doen om, ware het mogelijk, de uitverkorenen te verleiden." Marcus 13:22
"Laten uwe lendenen omgord zijn en uw lampen brandende." Lucas 12:35)

My theory is that many christian based Frisians have an aversion against OLB because they believe it's the work of the devil or the antichrist (as a matter speaking).
They basically fear OLB.

Yes, maybe if mkay had actually read it he would have noticed the very opening parts which include:

Beloved successors, for the sake of our dear forefathers, and of our dear liberty, I entreat you a thousand times never let the eye of a monk look on these writings. They are very insinuating, but they destroy in an underhand manner all that relates to us Frisians. In order to gain rich benefices, they conspire with foreign kings, who know that we are their greatest enemies, because we dare to speak to their people of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes. Therefore they seek to destroy all that we derive from our forefathers, and all that is left of our old customs.

Ah, my beloved ones! I have visited their courts! If Wr-alda permits it, and we do not shew ourselves strong to resist, they will altogether exterminate us.

Here's my own idea of what's been going on...

"Yeah, great idea, let's tell all the monks we still believe in this and they can burn us at the stake or tie us up to one of those cool torture machines they have....better still, let's send them a copy, I'm sure they'll enjoy the read..."

"Nah, Ive got a better idea, let's pretend we have no history or were pagan followers so they won't pick on us anymore..."


Time goes on.

"Son, did you know that you were born of Frya's law and that Wr-alda created us all?"

"Who the hell is Wr-alda, didn't God create us?"

Edited by The Puzzler, 31 October 2010 - 09:32 AM.

[Abramelin]

mkay, on 30 October 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm from Frisia and I've read this topic for quite a while and I'm truly amazed this thread has gone to 105 pages, because Thet Oera Linda Bok is clearly a forgery, like most of Frisia's history.

One obvious reason not to believe it's authenticity is the paper. The paper used to write the book was at most twenty years old, which was intentionally made to look older. If the book was really copied for generations, than it obviously would have made sense to mention that and that new paper was used instead of making it intentionally look older.

Also, paper was very expensive prior to when the book was written. It wouldn't have been copied that much and if it would truly been deemed that important, it wouldn't have remained in private possession for such a long time and the story would have been at least as much copied and be at least as well known as Jewish mythology was.

Aside from the paper, there are many other reasons to believe that Thet Oera Linda Bok is a forgery. First is linguistics. Old Frisian was well known among Frisian scholars and there would definitely have been people who would have been able to write an extensive narrative in an Old Frisian-ish language or even a plausible precursor of it. François HaverSchmidt definitely would have known that Greece was called Kreklond in Old Frisian, just to name something. I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok, but where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word. These examples are made to look old, but clearly look very modern. I'm greatly interested in Frisian history and linguistics and I've read quite some Old Frisian texts, but Thet Oera Linda Bok is simply too easy to read for a modern Frisian like me.

Thirdly, a great part of Frisian history is a forgery and a big part of Frisian history was invented during the late 19th, early 20th century. I.e. it was very common for Frisians to colour (I will come back to that later, because not all is fake) their history. Frisians are proud people and if nobody can refute their claims, it quickly finds its way in history books. For example, many Frisians will believe that the Frisian flag is hundreds of years old, the flag dates from the late 19th century. It is true that the flag is based on much older Frisian and Germanic heraldry. For once, compare the coat of arms and flag of Frisia to the coat of arms of Denmark. The symbols on the Frisian flag probably have the same ancient origins as the French Fleur-de-Lis. In reality the Frisian flag is a rather modern invention.
Also, many Frisians believe that the Frisian language is very old, preceding many other modern languages (this is even claimed in the Frisian anthem). Fact is that this can easily be disproven. The Old Frisian language developed only in the late first, early second millennium. The Anglo-Saxon language started to develop much earlier.
True, the Frisii were mentioned by Tacitus, but after that the population of the area declined and several other tribes migrated from the east to England, and probably many Frisii travelled with them. Other probably thought that England was too far after all and settled in the region. Of course the Frisii were related to these other tribes and their linguistic kinship was only reinforced during this period of migrations, but the truth is that nobody knows what language the Frisii spoke, which parts of it still have been preserved, how numerous the Frisii were and who is and who isn't a descendant of the Frisii.
Another example which comes to my mind is the tale of Friso, Saxo and Bruno which moved from India and split up in Europe to form different tribes.

Like any other Frisian does, I do find much pleasure every now and then in imagining these stories to be true, but except for proud, Frisians are also realists and when we're presented with the facts there's nothing we can do, but accept them.

Hi Mkay, and welcome to UM.

Well, if you did read this thread you will have noticed that really everything you brought up in your post has been discussed.

The only new thing is that the ancient Frisians called Greece "Kreklond".

[mkay]

Otharus, on 31 October 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

This guy must be hundreds of years old. I guess he means he lives in Friesland.

No, because Frisia is the proper English translation. When you're talking English, you neither say that you're living in Nederland. If you refuse to use English names when you're talking English, than it would be better to say Fryslân.

Quote

The only known report of an examination was published in "Nederlandsche Spectator" #32 (5 August 1876). The conclusions were debunked by Ottema in the second edition of his OLB translation in 1876. Some years ago a new examination was started, but still no results have been published. Therefore, it is still possible that the manuscript is what it claimns to be; a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older original.

No, it has been independently confirmed that the paper was from a paper mill in Limburg. With modern techniques (radio carbon dating), it's quite easy to determine the age of paper and I'm quite sure that has been done as well, since that would be the single most logical step. Apparently I can't access the university library from my home, but I will try tomorrow. One thing I'm confident of is that when it would have been established that the paper was truly as old as it was claimed, the entire world would have known it by now.

Quote

Have you ever heard of the Inquisition?

The truth of the Oera Linda Book was, allegedly known before Christianity spread to Europe, so that's a moot point.

Quote

Jensma often uses terms like this too: "undoubtedly", "without the slightest doubt", "there is no doubt possible" etc. Sure, he will have convinced many people who read the 'Leeuwarder Courant', but not many of his his scientific colleagues. (See my post #1324.) I have read OLB in the original language and all of Jensma's publications (as well as many other) and I am convinced he is wrong.

What's your point? That François HaverSchmidt didn't write it? That doesn't make it authentic.

Quote

Did you know there's plenty of words that are still a mystery, even to Jensma? Others were much later explained because they have survived in other languages like Swedish.

Because it's gibberish.

Quote

I will give you one:

Friesland traditionally is predominantly 'Dutch reformed' ('gereformeerd'; extreme protestant/ calvinistic).

Jensma's theory is that OLB was created to make fun of the Bible and the Christian religion in general.

His first publication (De Vrije Fries LXXII, 1992) about OLB with the title "Lees, leer en waak" (= Read, learn and watch out) starts with two quotes from the christian bible:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect, if that were possible." Marc 13:22
"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning..." Luke 12:35

(In Dutch:
"Want er zullen valse christussen en valse profeten opstaan en zij zullen tekenen en wonderen doen om, ware het mogelijk, de uitverkorenen te verleiden." Marcus 13:22
"Laten uwe lendenen omgord zijn en uw lampen brandende." Lucas 12:35)

My theory is that many christian based Frisians have an aversion against OLB because they believe it's the work of the devil or the antichrist (as a matter speaking).
They basically fear OLB.

They also fear Harry Potter, but that doesn't make him anything but fiction.

[mkay]

The Puzzler, on 31 October 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

So...you haven't read it, but you know it's simply too easy to read.???

Like what? bedrum?

I have read excerpts from it.

[mkay]

The Puzzler, on 31 October 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

Yes, maybe if mkay had actually read it he would have noticed the very opening parts which include:

Beloved successors, for the sake of our dear forefathers, and of our dear liberty, I entreat you a thousand times never let the eye of a monk look on these writings. They are very insinuating, but they destroy in an underhand manner all that relates to us Frisians. In order to gain rich benefices, they conspire with foreign kings, who know that we are their greatest enemies, because we dare to speak to their people of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes. Therefore they seek to destroy all that we derive from our forefathers, and all that is left of our old customs.

Ah, my beloved ones! I have visited their courts! If Wr-alda permits it, and we do not shew ourselves strong to resist, they will altogether exterminate us.

Here's my own idea of what's been going on...

"Yeah, great idea, let's tell all the monks we still believe in this and they can burn us at the stake or tie us up to one of those cool torture machines they have....better still, let's send them a copy, I'm sure they'll enjoy the read..."

"Nah, Ive got a better idea, let's pretend we have no history or were pagan followers so they won't pick on us anymore..."


Time goes on.

"Son, did you know that you were born of Frya's law and that Wr-alda created us all?"

"Who the hell is Wr-alda, didn't God create us?"

So what you're trying to say is that people in that area, somewhere between the 6th and 10th century, agreed to hide their favourite book and pretend to know nothing because those kind missionaries were coming? I find that hard to believe, because the Frisians fiercely resisted Christianity and no contemporary scribe has ever mentioned anything of an Oera Linda cult prior to this.

[Abramelin]

An intermezzo:

Otharus, I have tried to respond to your pm for 3 times now, but everytime I get a "Server error 406".

I hope you read the pdf about pagan beliefs in my respons to your post, the one you posted before you left for a few days ago.

Also please read what I posted in this thread about Haverschmidt in connection with Ottema's 'suicide'.

[mkay]

Abramelin, on 31 October 2010 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hi Mkay, and welcome to UM.

Well, if you did read this thread you will have noticed that really everything you brought up in your post has been discussed.

The only new thing is that the ancient Frisians called Greece "Kreklond".

I'm truly amazed why so many good arguments are skipped and people have appeared to have lost their sanity just because they wish something to be true.

And how Greece was called by the Old Frisians is not really relevant, it was just an example.

[The Puzzler]

Numerous authorities[citation needed] believe that ancient empires were prone to misvalue staples in favor of luxuries, and thereby perish by famines created by uneconomic trading.
http://en.wikipedia....e_Age_in_Europe

Just like when the Fryans had plenty of jewels but no food for the children to eat through uneconomic trading even though they had been warned.


Who thinks Rome doesn't mean spacious?

The name of the 1st King raises the same problem as the name of the city. The etymology of Roma was a mystery even in Classical Antiquity. There is no explanation from Latin. There are even explanations from Etruscan, where the name is Ruma; but of course you cannot expect good etymology from an unknown language.
http://www.rmki.kfki...acs/WHYROME.htm

Of course not, how silly of us...

In Etruscan it was called RUMa - knowning that RUM is space - remember my etymology - bedrum - sleeping place - SPACE - because RUM = SPACE.

Ruma in Etruscan COULD mean space or spacious if it connects to the language in the OLB book. (You all know Í've been following that line here for a while)

The same as the OLB tells us.

They called it Rome because it meant spacious.


Oscan has F instead of V.

The Oscans may have been the people who were Frisian related or Frisians themselves.

The Etruscans may have been people who were indigenous but took on these peoples customs and ways, only came into their own once they had contact with the Oscans and the Oscan language is also found in Roman words, like rosa - rose - ras, rus. If they took on the Greek customs as easy as they say, why not a culture before the Greeks came..?

The Oscans, if they had an F word it would have become V once it was taken on by the Roman contingent of people, the Latium group, Frya, Frey might even be Veii- Fasta might be Vesta.

Rome - spacious. Why not, Veii was...spacious too
Plutarch, Life of Romulus, says of them:

The first (to oppose Romulus) were the Veientes, a people of Tuscany (the site is now in Lazio), who had large possessions, and dwelt in a spacious city; they took occasion to commence a war, by claiming Fidenae as belonging to them ....[8]

This passage corresponds well with the archaeology of Veii: spaciousness and wealth. The historical evidence for Rome and archaeological for Veii indicates they were both formed by conurbation of distinct settlements in that century. Plutarch says that the first Rome "contained no more than a thousand houses," while the population of the plateau at Veii is estimated to have been stable at about 1000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veii

Edited by The Puzzler, 31 October 2010 - 12:50 PM.

[Abramelin]

mkay, on 31 October 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm truly amazed why so many good arguments are skipped and people have appeared to have lost their sanity just because they wish something to be true.

And how Greece was called by the Old Frisians is not really relevant, it was just an example.

Hmm.. did we lose our sanity here??

I think the problem is mostly that many people who believe in the OLB base their belief on translations into English, which, as I have said many times, are not always very correct.

I am able to read much of the OLB in it's original script (after transliteration), and, being Dutch, I can also read what Ottema made of it.... and also what has been published in Dutch, soon after the OLB was published.

And most important: I have brought up many sources - Roman/Latin, Greek - that were available to the writers of the OLB (Tacitus, Caesar, Strabo, Pliny, Pytheas, Homer, Frisian sources, and so on). Up to now I haven't really seen any other sources that were unknown to 19th century people that could corroborate what the OLB is talking about.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 31 October 2010 - 12:32 PM.

[The Puzzler]

mkay, on 31 October 2010 - 11:59 AM, said:

So what you're trying to say is that people in that area, somewhere between the 6th and 10th century, agreed to hide their favourite book and pretend to know nothing because those kind missionaries were coming? I find that hard to believe, because the Frisians fiercely resisted Christianity and no contemporary scribe has ever mentioned anything of an Oera Linda cult prior to this.

Firstly, the age of the paper of the manuscript imo has no bearing on anything.

In case you inherit them, you must copy them likewise, and your children must do so too, so that they may never be lost.

It is said, first thing, that you must copy them likewise and your children must do so too.

So, imo it is more likely to be a copy anyway and if it is, so what? It does not disprove the book in any way.

Second, I was being a bit silly I'm afraid on the God thing...but what the words mean to me is, that if we continue to exert our freedom and rights, it gives other political powers MORE power to destroy us (the Frisians)

They are very insinuating, but they destroy in an underhand manner all that relates to us Frisians. In order to gain rich benefices, they conspire with foreign kings, who know that we are their greatest enemies, because we dare to speak to their people of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes. Therefore they seek to destroy all that we derive from our forefathers, and all that is left of our old customs.

The book destroys the Frisians because their power of speech on freedom was a powerful tool, making others more powerful, therefore in the end, the Frisians would have suffered more and they would cause their own downfall, which seems to be the same message the book is giving us.

That was really my point, it would have been more advantageous at that time (802AD) to lay low and not push their freedom and liberty rights too much. By doing that they would only be giving the monks and others more power.

Edited by The Puzzler, 31 October 2010 - 12:43 PM.

[Abramelin]

Etymology
About the origin of the name Roma several hypotheses have been advanced.[8] The most important are the following:

*from Rommylos (Romulus), son of Ascanius and founder of the city;

*from Rumon or Rumen, archaic name of Tiber. It has the same root of the Greek verb ῥέω (rhèo) and of the Latin verb ruo, which both mean "flow";[9]

*from the Etruscan word ruma, whose root is *rum-, "teat", with possible reference either to the totem wolf that adopted and suckled the cognately named twins Romulus and Remus, or to the shape of Palatine and Aventine hills;

*from the Greek word ῤώμη (rhòme), which means strength;[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome


--

And Puzz, the Dutch word for 'cream' is ROOM ( pronounced with an -o- like in the English 'no' ).

-

Rjome or rømme is Norwegian sour cream containing 35% milk fat, similar to Icelandic rjómi.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream
.

Edited by Abramelin, 31 October 2010 - 01:47 PM.