11638 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

...but to gather more info on the topic of Greece being inhabited by Northern Europeans...

Therein lies the problem, IMO. Comparative mythology and questionable linguistics aside, why is there no evidence archaeologically or genetically to suggest that the Greeks originated with Northern Europeans?

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 23 November 2010 - 01:10 AM, said:

Therein lies the problem, IMO. Comparative mythology and questionable linguistics aside, why is there no evidence archaeologically or genetically to suggest that the Greeks originated with Northern Europeans?

cormac

It depends what you're looking for I guess and how you interpret it.

Many features of Myceneaen culture seems to have stemmed from Europe, especially the burial similarities with the areas of Switzerland, early La Tene, following burials is interesting. The grave shafts, the earlier ones in Mycenae show larger bodied men and Baltic amber in the graves. Dolmens show early signs of becoming later tumulus graves where the whole thing is covered over. Romulus huts are small urms shaped like huts that were found in Latium, it defines that culture from the Etruscan one, who never had huts. The whole Mediterranean is covered with circles and swirls that date back as far as 5000BC in Europe.

It depends what Greeks too, it's a broad definition and I doubt the whole "Greek race" is made up of these early Nordic settlers. There's an obvious influx from Asia Minor and that is what we see most of in them now. Go back to the earliest grave shafts and blue eyed, (typical Greek, from Poseidon they said) blonde mythical characters and stories.

The line that came in from Asia Minor dominated c. Greek Dark Ages and Greece lost it's old persona, replaced by one created by the Homer's and Hesiods of the time.

I don't think there's anything to suggest that the earliest Mycenaeans were NOT European descendants.

[The Puzzler]

Of course, these guys must have been, what.. Indians? Turks?

Oh that's right, it's probably a fake, hey.

I don't think so.

I'll also add, it seems that maybe an early ruling class was Northern European and the country was made up of them as well as Mediterranean types as I do see many images of the Mycenaeans with long, thick plaited dark hair, in among them, it seems to me, there could be found a blonde type, always seemingly related to Gods such as Achilles, or even golden haired Leto, mother of Artemis and Apollo, twin Gods, which is a common theme in the Nordic Bronze Age era in Scandinavia, since the stories are more than likely of the more important people, the ruling class as such, Kings and leaders, the stories are telling of higher class with more important positions that the every day man.

[The Puzzler]

This blog article touches on the subject of a Nordic aristocracy in ancient Greece...

The peak of Greek civilization was only reached after the "ingredient of progress" had been introduced by the Indo-European invaders. By the time complete mediocrity set in, the disproportionately Nordic and Indo-European-descended aristocracy had all but disappeared. Lundman agrees that:

The racial structure of the old historical European peoples - the Greeks, Romans, and Celts - has been treated at length in my book Geographische Anthropologie (1967). Certainly, these peoples had, at least in their upper social strata, stronger Nordic components than the present inhabitants of these lands.

Cremation

The aristocracy were a small, isolated segment of the population, and many aristocratic families practiced cremation "well into the Classical period" (Peterson 1974), severely limiting the usefulness of skeletal evidence in discussing the racial type of the aristocracy. But the evidence mentioned above is consistent with the idea that Nordic types would have been greatly overrepresented in the aristocracy, just as portraits suggest they were.

Incidentally, the practice of cremation is itself a clue.

. . . cremation . . . was associated with pastoral-nomadic Nordic populations, for whom the soul might roam free in death as in life. Thus, the introduction of cremation into Greece was taken by many scholars as indicating the arrival of a new Nordic and nomadic population . . . (Hall 1997, 116)
Whether cremation was introduced by some unknown, generalized "'northern elements'", or specifically by "Dorian descendants of the cremation-practising Urnfield populations who occupied Illyria and Bosnia in the Late Bronze Age" (Hall 1997, 116-117), it is clear that cremation as practiced by the Greek aristocracy had its origin among Nordics.
http://aryannordical.../10/greeks.html

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 23 November 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

Of course, these guys must have been, what.. Indians? Turks?

Oh that's right, it's probably a fake, hey.

Quote

I don't think so.

I'll also add, it seems that maybe an early ruling class was Northern European and the country was made up of them as well as Mediterranean types as I do see many images of the Mycenaeans with long, thick plaited dark hair, in among them, it seems to me, there could be found a blonde type, always seemingly related to Gods such as Achilles, or even golden haired Leto, mother of Artemis and Apollo, twin Gods, which is a common theme in the Nordic Bronze Age era in Scandinavia, since the stories are more than likely of the more important people, the ruling class as such, Kings and leaders, the stories are telling of higher class with more important positions that the every day man.

Well, let's see. Out of 22 individuals from Grave Circle B, no Y Chromosome DNA was able to be extracted and only 4 samples of mtDNA were able to be extracted. Of those 4 samples one was either U5a1 or U5a1a (which is Central European at best), one was possibly H (which likely spread across the Northern Mediterranean from Southwest Asia/Middle East after the last glacial period) and the last two were from Haplogroup UK (also known as just "K" - which incidently is my mtDNA haplogroup) which originated from Southwest Asia towards the end of the last glacial period. None of these would appear to suggest an origin in Northern Europe.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Here's a cool picture - Marduk holding a battle-axe, typically European style.


http://www.daimonas....nt-briefly.html

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 23 November 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

Well, let's see. Out of 22 individuals from Grave Circle B, no Y Chromosome DNA was able to be extracted and only 4 samples of mtDNA were able to be extracted. Of those 4 samples one was either U5a1 or U5a1a (which is Central European at best), one was possibly H (which likely spread across the Northern Mediterranean from Southwest Asia/Middle East after the last glacial period) and the last two were from Haplogroup UK (also known as just "K" - which incidently is my mtDNA haplogroup) which originated from Southwest Asia towards the end of the last glacial period. None of these would appear to suggest an origin in Northern Europe.

cormac

Well, I'll give you one guys answer from the article you quoted from:

One of the samples couldn't be identified!!!
The other could be almost anything!!!
AND THE LAST TWO WHICH WERE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED WERE OF A HAPLOGROUP TYPICAL OF UPPER PALEOLITHIC EUROPEANS!
Thus so far the verdict is that the ancestors of Mycenaeans were probably U.P. Europeans and not Mediterraneans. LIVE WITH IT!!!
Just because a very small part of this U5a1a people went to Near East or N. Africa what does this mean?
That they became...Anatolians or Natufians?
If a Bushman bearing A Y-DNA Hg goes to China, as the time will pass on he will become.....Chinese?
This group which went to Near East can't be identified with your Renfrew's Anatolian Neolithic farmers who are genetically related to J and E3b1a Hgs and culturally related to Natufians!!!
GET OVER IT!!!
If mtDNA U5a1a bearers moved to Near East or N. Africa and then moved back again to Greece does not make them less genetically Europeans than the people which they left behind SINCE THEY RETAINED THEIR haplogroup!!!
WE SPEAK ABOUT GENETICS HERE FRIEND!!!
WHERE YOU MIGRATE DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU ACQUIRE THE DNA Hgs OF THAT PLACE.
Besides only a minute percentage of the U5a1a went to N. East and parts of Africa.
The vast amount of the particular Hg bearers stayed in Europe.
Thus what is more rational to say when you meat a U5a1a bearer?
That he must be descending from Europe or from Africa and N. East?
Of course in order for someone to be rational HE NEEDS NOT TO BE PREJUDICED FIRST!!!


P.S. And please try to read what i write and not what you wish to read.
I just said that Mycenaean samples descend from a "European" Hg and not an Asian or Asiatic one SO FAR.
We will have to wait and see what Grave Circle A will give in order to draw more confident conclusions.

http://dienekes.blog...mycenae_07.html

[cormac mac airt]

Which is wrong, as it has been known for quite a while that Haplogroup K DOES NOT originate with Upper Paleolithic Europeans, but those out of Western Asia circa 10,000 BC, during the start of the Neolithic. Haplogrooup K traveling through the middle of Europe from East to West, which again has nothing to do with Northern Europe. A good example of this is that Otzi "the Iceman", found in northern Italy, belongs to Haplogroup K.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 23 November 2010 - 03:32 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 22 November 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

I can tell now that I found something that could - in a way - confirm - the claims made by the OLB believers.

The Germans discovered ancient Minoan artifacts at the west coast of Denmark.

Cretan Tripods, ceramic, coins..

Great find Abe, thanks!

This can indeed " confirm the claims made by the OLB believers".

Quote

I have been the one in this thread demanding the believers in the OLB to come forward with some real proof.

HA!

Now you sound just like a spoilt child
that can't wait to open the biggest present
that's lying under the Christmas tree.

Don't be so impatient.

After all these millennia, can we have some time
to remember and oversee the consequences?

And while I am busy doing that...

I invite you to come forward with some real proof that your theory is right.

And for something completely different...

Do you think it's relevant to devide the participants of this forum as
either 100% sure that OLB was all created in the 19th century,
or 100% sure that the Over de Lindens spoke the truth?

Rather than black or white, 0 or 1,
it's more helpful to see the likeliness of either theory
within a sliding scale or a spectrum of credibility.

Edited by Otharus, 23 November 2010 - 04:22 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 23 November 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:

Great find Abe, thanks!

This can indeed " confirm the claims made by the OLB believers".


HA!

Now you sound just like a spoilt child
that can't wait to open the biggest present
that's lying under the Christmas tree.

Don't be so impatient.

After all these millennia, can we have some time
to remember and oversee the consequences?

And while I am busy doing that...

I invite you to come forward with some real proof that your theory is right.

And for something completely different...

Do you think it's relevant to devide the participants of this forum as
either 100% sure that OLB was all created in the 19th century,
or 100% sure that the Over de Lindens spoke the truth?

Rather than black or white, 0 or 1,
it's more helpful to see the likeliness of either theory
within a sliding scale or a spectrum of credibility.

The only real proof would of course be a talk with Halbertsma, Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Over de Linden. But because they are dead, that is no longer possible. So we are now left with the many clues that all or some of them are the main suspects, or only one of them is the main suspect.

And proof the OLB is a real authentic manuscript would be another find of the Yule/Jol/running script, or some new archeological find, unknown in the 19th century, a find that confirms something decribed in the OLB.


"Do you think it's relevant to devide the participants of this forum as
either 100% sure that OLB was all created in the 19th century,
or 100% sure that the Over de Lindens spoke the truth?

Rather than black or white, 0 or 1,
it's more helpful to see the likeliness of either theory
within a sliding scale or a spectrum of credibility."


I don't think it can be both ways: half truth, and half lie. It was either created in the 19th century, or it was indeed what it was supposed to be: an authentic ancient manuscript decribing an ancient civilization.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 November 2010 - 04:48 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 23 November 2010 - 04:46 PM, said:

The only real proof would of course be a talk with Halbertsma, Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Over de Linden.

Why would they say something different from when they lived?

Quote

So we are now left with the many clues that all or some of them are the main suspects, or only one of them is the main suspect.

And even if you have a suspect, you don't have a case yet, until she's proven to be guilty.

Quote

I don't think it can be both ways: half truth, and half lie.
It was either created in the 19th century,
or it was indeed what it was supposed to be:
an authentic ancient manuscript decribing an ancient civilization.

You missed it.
What I ment was that none of us can be 100% sure of either theory...
... until evidence is presented that the wisest of us can agree with.

Edited by Otharus, 23 November 2010 - 05:17 PM.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 23 November 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

Which is wrong, as it has been known for quite a while that Haplogroup K DOES NOT originate with Upper Paleolithic Europeans, but those out of Western Asia circa 10,000 BC, during the start of the Neolithic. Haplogrooup K traveling through the middle of Europe from East to West, which again has nothing to do with Northern Europe. A good example of this is that Otzi "the Iceman", found in northern Italy, belongs to Haplogroup K.

cormac

You're talking 10,000BC, they more than likely came from somewhere back then, probably all migrated around the place, many from Asia, some might have been Cro-Magnon strands still in Europe after the ice age ended.

Too late for me now but I'll get back to this tomorrow. http://en.wikipedia...._of_Scandinavia

Here's one that confuses me. They say that the Sami has been in the North for around 5000 years, that's c. 3000BC but their dna shows in Berber genes before that, maybe around 7,000BC, so that's 5,000 years earlier than they were even in Finland and surrounds, apparently.

So, how do you get genes of a people in another people that were not in their homeland until thousands of years later?

They must have spread out and went south and then into Europe, so this says, into the Franco Cantabrian refuge area, from Asia. Just because genetics shows them at 10,000BC in Asia, doesn't prove anything, of course the Nordic genes would have spread out of Asia, as Indo-European languages (Aryan for want of a better term) did. In waves probably, just as the Sami also show signs of, also they show signs of more paternal dna coming from Asia with more maternal from ancient European dna, which is mentioned in the OLB how the local women were taken in by the Magyar and Finns and how many defected to their lifestyle.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 23 November 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

Why would they say something different from when they lived?


And even if you have a suspect, you don't have a case yet, until she's proven to be guilty.

++++


You missed it.
What I ment was that none of us can be 100% sure of either theory...
... until evidence is presented that the wisest of us can agree with.

I don't know if all of them were asked questions about the OLB and Halbertsma died soon after the OLB was published.

Well, a proof on the same level as I have been 'demanding', lol, is a letter written by either one of them in which they say how, why and when they created the OLB.

But I think a proof like that will be as much disputed as proof that the OLB is indeed authentic, and this thread will reach a 1000 pages...

++++

Yes, I admit, I didn't really understand what you said.

Btw, I would really like to read that book by Van der Meij myself. I asked Menno Knul if it was online, but alas. I can still buy it, and he said it will cost me like 18 euros or something. Well, maybe some day..

[Abramelin]

Say Puzz, you have posted quite a lot about the amber trade and the subsequent spread of peoples and myths.

Were you aware there was amber in Syria?? I wasn't...


[806-2] Amber too was brought in very early times from the farthest north ; amber ornaments are often mentioned by Homer, and have been found in the oldest tombs of Cumae and in those by the Lion gate at Mycenae. The Phoenicians can hardly have fetched the amber themselves from the Baltic or even from the North Sea (where it scarcely can have ever been common); it came to them by two trade routes, one from the Baltic to the Adriatic, the other up the Rhine and down the Rhone. But indeed a deposit of amber has been found in the Lebanon not far from Sidon, [806-3] and perhaps the Phoenicians worked this and only concealed, after their manner, the origin of the precious ware. Certainly the ancients knew of Syrian amber, and knew also that amber could be dug from the ground.

http://www.1902encyc.../phoenicia.html

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 22 November 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:

A third possibility here Abramelin, is that a Phoenician ship loaded with various wares of the Mediterranean (to include Minoan) sailed to the area of Britain, Denmark and the North Sea and their ship, for whatever reason, was lost.

cormac

As far as I could find online, the Phoenicians did indeed visit the North Sea area for trade, but at a much later time, like centuries later:



On the shores of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean, the Greeks and Phoenicians had been trading well since the 8th Century BC. They began to spread westward along the Mediterranean, the Phoenicians choosing to colonize the southern shore from western Sicily to Tunisia, while the Greeks built their colonies along the northern shore from Sardinia to Gades - present day Cadiz. As the two civilizations expanded it was only a matter of time before the 'Celts' and Phoenicians/Greeks encountered each other. A tin-trade route sprang up leading from Cornwall crossing the Channel, through Armorica then taking the 'three river' route along the Seine, Saône and Rhône to the Golfe du Lion. In about 600BC the Greeks founded the port of Massilia (Marseille) near the mouth of the Rhône. Trade increased greatly between the three cultures and each achieved a great deal of power through this commerce. As Massilia grew, new Atlantic sea routes were opened up across the Bay of Biscay to ensure free flow of trade.

http://www.cornwalli...lture/celts.php




Phoenician interest in the Atlantic tin trade may have started as early as the eleventh century BCE: according to several Greek and Roman authors, modern Cádiz was founded c.1100. Up till now, archaeologists have not been able to verify or refute this ancient tradition. There is more evidence for the period after c.800, when the Phoenicians founded Carthage and several colonies on the Costa del Sol (a.o., Malaga)

-

We may speculate that Himilco also visited Helgoland, which is four months from Cádiz. This was the place where the ancients found amber and it may have been a secondary goal of Himilco's expedition. Avienus does not mention a northern voyage, but this silence does not prove that Himilco did not visit the North sea - Avienus is interested in the Atlantic ocean, not in the neighboring seas. A hypothetical visit of Himilco to Helgoland might help explain why several sixth-century Greek authors start to speculate about a legendary amber river, which they call Eridanus.

http://www.livius.or...co/himilco.html

http://www.oldandsol...ry-art-29.shtml


.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 November 2010 - 05:42 PM.