11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

I will add this part:

Geologically, the Golan plateau and the Hauran plain to the east constitute a Holocene volcanic field that also extends northeast almost to Damascus. Much of the area is scattered with dormant volcanos, as well as cinder cones, such as Majdal Shams.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Golan_Heights

The area around Golan Heights is a Holocene volcanic field. It's possible that these Amorites have an association to Lot, if the area of Sodom and Gomorrah was hit by fire and brimstone etc, it could indicate volcanic eruptions spewing back down on them.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 24 November 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

I will add this part:

Geologically, the Golan plateau and the Hauran plain to the east constitute a Holocene volcanic field that also extends northeast almost to Damascus. Much of the area is scattered with dormant volcanos, as well as cinder cones, such as Majdal Shams.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Golan_Heights

The area around Golan Heights is a Holocene volcanic field. It's possible that these Amorites have an association to Lot, if the area of Sodom and Gomorrah was hit by fire and brimstone etc, it could indicate volcanic eruptions spewing back down on them.

I don't think these Amorites were around when those volcanoes erupted...

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 24 November 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

I don't think these Amorites were around when those volcanoes erupted...

Pliocene-Holocene means around 10,000 BC.

FYI.

The Pliocene started around 3 million years ago, the Holocene is still going on.

But these volcanoes erupted last time around the border of these 2 time periods.

Or maybe a few thousands of years more recently.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 24 November 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

Then evidently you didn’t understand it.



The ancestral link between the Sami and Berbers is 9000 BP.



While there is still some debate as to where exactly the group ancestral to both Sami and Berber originated from (whether from Franco-Cantabrian refuge or Central Europe/Volga-Ural region), they split c.9000 BP and the Sami were in Northern Europe shortly thereafter. And much BEFORE 3000 BC. They didn't come into Europe FROM Africa.



From the following:



Source



At no point has that ever been suggested. You’re making it more complicated than it is.


cormac

That's right, I didn't.


So, you are saying...that after the ice age, maybe around 7000BC (9000 YBP) - a group of people left maybe Russia - and went West - some went south (split?)
The ones who arrived in Northern Europe became Saami.

The ones who split and went south, ended up in the genes of Berbers..?

So, the Saami gene could have got into the people of the Berber somewhere else, if the Berbers are said to have come from Asia..say

Is this right? The Saami dna may have got into the Berber genes from when they split (in Russia say, on a migration out for example sake) but not necessarily in Libya, maybe prior to the Berber peoples arrival in Libya?

Can you clarify what you know I want to know here please cormac.

[Swede]

Abramelin, on 24 November 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

Pliocene-Holocene means around 10,000 BC.

FYI.

The Pliocene started around 3 million years ago, the Holocene is still going on.

But these volcanoes erupted last time around the border of these 2 time periods.

Or maybe a few thousands of years more recently.

Abe - Basically correct but maybe Pleistocene (as opposed to Pliocene)? Pleistocene (the "Ice Ages") began circa 2.6 million BP.

Not meaning to be critical. Just want your position to be clear for others.

.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 24 November 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

Pliocene-Holocene means around 10,000 BC.

FYI.

The Pliocene started around 3 million years ago, the Holocene is still going on.

But these volcanoes erupted last time around the border of these 2 time periods.

Or maybe a few thousands of years more recently.

Yep, Holocene is generally the last 12,000 years from 10,000BC.

Here's some geology:

Continental motions due to plate tectonics are less than a kilometre over a span of only 10,000 years. However, ice melt caused world sea levels to rise about 35 m (110 ft) in the early part of the Holocene. In addition, many areas above about 40 degrees north latitude had been depressed by the weight of the Pleistocene glaciers and rose as much as 180 m (600 ft) due to post-glacial rebound over the late Pleistocene and Holocene, and are still rising today.

The sea level rise and temporary land depression allowed temporary marine incursions into areas that are now far from the sea. Holocene marine fossils are known from Vermont, Quebec, Ontario, and Michigan. Other than higher latitude temporary marine incursions associated with glacial depression, Holocene fossils are found primarily in lakebed, floodplain, and cave deposits. Holocene marine deposits along low-latitude coastlines are rare because the rise in sea levels during the period exceeds any likely tectonic uplift of non-glacial origin.

Post-glacial rebound in the Scandinavia region resulted in the formation of the Baltic Sea. The region continues to rise, still causing weak earthquakes across Northern Europe.

The Baltic Sea is an area that was land and is now sunken. Rose as much as 180 metres, that would seem like mountains rose out of the sea I reckon.

Nobody's giving a date on the Golan Heights volcanic activity, in the last 10,000 years it has probably erupted, pretty broad range.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

That's right, I didn't.

Thanks.    At least, now, I know where to start.

Quote

So, you are saying...that after the ice age, maybe around 7000BC (9000 YBP) - a group of people left maybe Russia - and went West - some went south (split?)

At that point a group, ancestral to both Sami AND Berber left Western Asia and moved into (probably) Central Europe. Exact location of which is still a matter of debate, as I mentioned before.

Quote

The ones who arrived in Northern Europe became Saami.

The ones who split and went south, ended up in the genes of Berbers..?

Cart before the horse, Puzzler. From their location (again probably Central Europe) they split and migrated in (at least) two directions. Becoming the Berbers in the South and the Sami in Northern Europe. They will, of course, have genetic differences between these two groups, but these two groups are MORE directly related with each other than (genetically) with those of their neighbors.

Quote

So, the Saami gene could have got into the people of the Berber somewhere else, if the Berbers are said to have come from Asia.

No, since it is not specifically a "Sami" gene or genes any more than it would be a "Berber" gene or genes. And technically BOTH originated from Asia (in the same group), so any claim to the contrary in relation to the two is meaningless.

Quote

Is this right? The Saami dna may have got into the Berber genes from when they split (in Russia say, on a migration out for example sake) but not necessarily in Libya, maybe prior to the Berber peoples arrival in Libya?

The genes linking the Sami and the Berber do so from a point in time BEFORE the Berber settled in Libya. And again, it's not Sami DNA, but DNA that is shared between the two groups from when they were originally ONE group c.9000 BP.

Hopefully you understand it now.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 25 November 2010 - 12:08 AM.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 24 November 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yep, Holocene is generally the last 12,000 years from 10,000BC.

Here's some geology:

Continental motions due to plate tectonics are less than a kilometre over a span of only 10,000 years. However, ice melt caused world sea levels to rise about 35 m (110 ft) in the early part of the Holocene. In addition, many areas above about 40 degrees north latitude had been depressed by the weight of the Pleistocene glaciers and rose as much as 180 m (600 ft) due to post-glacial rebound over the late Pleistocene and Holocene, and are still rising today.

The sea level rise and temporary land depression allowed temporary marine incursions into areas that are now far from the sea. Holocene marine fossils are known from Vermont, Quebec, Ontario, and Michigan. Other than higher latitude temporary marine incursions associated with glacial depression, Holocene fossils are found primarily in lakebed, floodplain, and cave deposits. Holocene marine deposits along low-latitude coastlines are rare because the rise in sea levels during the period exceeds any likely tectonic uplift of non-glacial origin.

Post-glacial rebound in the Scandinavia region resulted in the formation of the Baltic Sea. The region continues to rise, still causing weak earthquakes across Northern Europe.

The Baltic Sea is an area that was land and is now sunken. Rose as much as 180 metres, that would seem like mountains rose out of the sea I reckon.

Nobody's giving a date on the Golan Heights volcanic activity, in the last 10,000 years it has probably erupted, pretty broad range.

The only testing I'm aware of from the Golan Heights Volcanic Field would suggest a date of circa 129,000+ BP, from the area around Berekhat Ram, Golan Heights which is meaningless to the discussion of recorded history.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 25 November 2010 - 12:06 AM, said:

Thanks.    At least, now, I know where to start.



At that point a group, ancestral to both Sami AND Berber left Western Asia and moved into (probably) Central Europe. Exact location of which is still a matter of debate, as I mentioned before.



Cart before the horse, Puzzler. From their location (again probably Central Europe) they split and migrated in (at least) two directions. Becoming the Berbers in the South and the Sami in Northern Europe. They will, of course, have genetic differences between these two groups, but these two groups are MORE directly related with each other than (genetically) with those of their neighbors.



No, since it is not specifically a "Sami" gene or genes any more than it would be a "Berber" gene or genes. And technically BOTH originated from Asia (in the same group), so any claim to the contrary in relation to the two is meaningless.



The genes linking the Sami and the Berber do so from a point in time BEFORE the Berber settled in Libya. And again, it's not Sami DNA, but DNA that is shared between the two groups from when they were originally ONE group c.9000 BP.

Hopefully you understand it now.

cormac

OK. I think I see, thanks.

So, the migration out of the people contained the genes that show in both Berbers and Saami but do not necessarily indicate a link after seperation of the parties.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 25 November 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

OK. I think I see, thanks.

So, the migration out of the people contained the genes that show in both Berbers and Saami but do not necessarily indicate a link after seperation of the parties.

Perhaps it's just the way you have that worded, but what it shows is that the Sami and the Berbers descended from the same group c.9000 BP and that they are more closely related, genetically, to each other than to the neighboring peoples in their current locations. There is nothing to show, AFAIK, that there was any further genetic connection AFTER the separation into their respective groups. It also shows that the Sami were, as I mentioned earlier, in Northern Europe well BEFORE your 3000 BC date.

None of which helps any claims of Northern Europeans being the origins for any of the Mediterranean peoples.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Swede, on 24 November 2010 - 11:42 PM, said:

Abe - Basically correct but maybe Pleistocene (as opposed to Pliocene)? Pleistocene (the "Ice Ages") began circa 2.6 million BP.

Not meaning to be critical. Just want your position to be clear for others.

.

I know Swede, but I just quoted from Puzzler's link.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 24 November 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yep, Holocene is generally the last 12,000 years from 10,000BC.

(...)

Nobody's giving a date on the Golan Heights volcanic activity, in the last 10,000 years it has probably erupted, pretty broad range.

They are not even sure the volcanoes were active the past 10,000 years:
http://www.volcanolive.com/golan.html



The basaltic Golan Heights volcanic field in the Anti-Lebanon Mountains of SW Syria near the borders with Lebanon and Israel contains numerous cinder cones of Pliocene-to-Holocene age. The Golan Heights volcanic field covers a broad area NE of the Lake Tiberius (the Sea of Galilee) and SW of the city of Damascus (Dimashq) and includes the prehistoric cone of Majdel Shams in the Golan Heights. The volcanic field lies on a basaltic plateau that dips to the west and SW, with steep slopes facing the Dead Sea rift valley. It lies within the northern part of the massive alkaline Harrat Ash Shaam volcanic field that extends from southern Syria through NW Jordan to Saudi Arabia.

http://www.volcano.s...m?vnum=0300-03-

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 25 November 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

The only testing I'm aware of from the Golan Heights Volcanic Field would suggest a date of circa 129,000+ BP, from the area around Berekhat Ram, Golan Heights which is meaningless to the discussion of recorded history.

cormac

Well, I'm not sure I buy that dating, the Bible seems to give a clear description of a volcanic eruption in the possible area of Golan Heights, since the Amorites are said to descend from Lot and it is Lot's city that is taken by the Lord, as such.

This person has given a good descriptive reference to it all...
"god" didn't destroy "Sodom" & "Gomorrah"; they were destroyed - if they ever existed - by a volcanic eruption - I suspect that it was a "Plinian"-style eruption, at that, if one reads the description...

Genesis 19: 15 [Christian Standard Bible]  "At the crack of dawn the angels urged Lot on: "Get up!  Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city."...

Notice that...

From two cities - Sodom AND Gomorrah - it's suddenly ONE city...  Perhaps the 'angels' were referring only to the city in which Lot resided, at that point; for later on, in verse 23, it's "Sodom & Gomorrah" again...

Anyway, verses 18-20 describe Lot's fear that he won't reach the mountains before the destruction begins...  "But Lot said to them, "No, Lord! - please...  But I can't run to the mountains; the disaster will overtake me, and I will die.  Look, this town is close enough for me to run to.  It is a small place.  Please let me go there..."

Verse 21: "And he [God, I guess??  not capitalized in this bible...] said to him, "All right, I'll grant your request...[I] will not overthrow the town you mentioned.  Hurry up!  Run there, for I cannot do anything until you get there."...

And now we get into the 'meat' of the destruction...  Verse 23 - 28:  "The sun had risen over the land when Lot reached Zoar.  Then the LORD rained burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the sky.  He overthrew these cities, the entire plain, all the inhabitants of the cities and whatever grew on the ground.  But his wife looked back and became a pillar of salt.  "

"Early in the morning Abraham went to the place where he had stood before the LORD.  He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and all the land of the plain, and he saw that smoke was going up from the land like the smoke of a furnace.  ..."

Notice the similarities in visual imagery between this scripture, and the one in Exodus 19: 16-19 wherein "Moses" receives the 'ten commandments' after going upon "Mt. Sinai" ...

"On the third day, when morning came, there was thunder and lightning, a thick cloud on the mountain, and a loud trumpet sound...  Mount Sinai was completely enveloped in smoke because the LORD came down on it in fire.  Its smoke went up like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain shook violently.  As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him in the thunder.  ..."

The description in Exodus is one of the clearest descriptions of a volcanic eruption - albeit given by an ignorant, superstitious observer or observers - that I've ever read.  The "thunder and lightning" is VERY COMMON in volcanic ash clouds, as the friction of the ash particles colliding in the turbulent, super-heated air generates large amounts of static electricity which releases itself in lightning strikes.  The mountain was "completely enveloped in smoke", which is an excellent description of the ash cloud surrounding the mountain.  Then there's the "whole mountain shook violently"; which are the 'harmonic tremors' so typical of volcanic eruptions...

Now, look again at the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.  "rained burning sulphur"...  Hot lava bombs and that typical smell of 'rotten eggs' due to the high sulphuric content of the volcanic gases.  "Overthrew the cities...  ENTIRE PLAIN...  AND WHATEVER GREW ON THE GROUND..."

Anyone who's ever seen photos of the aftermath of a pyroclastic flow will have noted the almost total destruction of EVERYTHING in its path, especially the vegetation!!!

And the most telling point - the similarity to the "Moses" account??  "smoke was going up from the land like the smoke of a furnace"...  Used in BOTH accounts, almost word-for-word...  (Assuming the original translation was translating similar or identical phrases...)

Yuppers...  DEFINIETLY a description of a volcanic eruption...  That whole "pillar of salt" thing - ever look at the "body casts" left over when the citizens of Pompeii were killed?  THOSE could definitely be described as "pillars of salt"; in other words, pillars of ash composed of volcanic materials...
http://www.jehovahs-...om-and-Gomorrah

It only says unknown for last known eruption or Holocene as many do, which means sometime since 10,000BC.

GOLAN HEIGHTS Volcanic field Holocene Syria

http://en.wikipedia....canoes_in_Syria
http://www.volcano.s...t_volcanoes.htm

Anyway, it's probably meaningless to this topic.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 25 November 2010 - 02:37 AM, said:

Perhaps it's just the way you have that worded, but what it shows is that the Sami and the Berbers descended from the same group c.9000 BP and that they are more closely related, genetically, to each other than to the neighboring peoples in their current locations. There is nothing to show, AFAIK, that there was any further genetic connection AFTER the separation into their respective groups. It also shows that the Sami were, as I mentioned earlier, in Northern Europe well BEFORE your 3000 BC date.

None of which helps any claims of Northern Europeans being the origins for any of the Mediterranean peoples.

cormac

It wasn't meant to really, I just needed to understand how the movement went, I've pondered that for a while.

Regardless, I still think the Mycenaean Greece aristocracy and many Gods were of North European culture, came into Central Europe and then into Greece and parts of Italy. With the amber.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 November 2010 - 02:59 AM, said:

They are not even sure the volcanoes were active the past 10,000 years:
http://www.volcanolive.com/golan.html

They don't seem to know an awful lot but I spose if it was a volcano it would confirm that it was actually God and I guess that upsets the applecarts too much, let sleeping dogs, or in this case, volcanoes, lie.