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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#3121    Otharus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:37 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".
An impressive quantity of finds yes, but nothing of quality at first sight.

I have a bad web-connection here, cannot go look for a needle in a haystack (which I don't believe exists anyway).

You claimed to know proof that Wijk bij Duurstede is the legendary Dorestad.

Please enlighten us.


#3122    Otharus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:41 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :

http://www.mens-en-c...hiedschrijving/
Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as
his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).

Have you read the info about that one?


#3123    Abramelin

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:35 AM

View PostOtharus, on 15 February 2011 - 01:41 AM, said:

Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as
his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).

Have you read the info about that one?

I did just now.

Maybe you will like this too, about Hengist and Horsa in relation to the Beowulf Saga:
http://www.bertsgesc...folcwalding.htm


#3124    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:36 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 11:35 AM, said:

I did just now.

Maybe you will like this too, about Hengist and Horsa in relation to the Beowulf Saga:
http://www.bertsgesc...folcwalding.htm

Hey thanks Abe... some great pics not so great the language.

Does this deal solely with Beowulf? If not do you know of an English site or equivalent which takes up the rest.

Note: I am using Linux which has no translator that I can find.

http://en.wikipedia....ngist_and_Horsa

I had a book which said the night of the long knives took place at Stonehenge. However not sure if true.

Edited by Flashbangwollap, 15 February 2011 - 12:49 PM.


#3125    Alewyn

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.
If one compares the latest calibrated dates of the samples in table 1 and 2 of Dr.Tewari's paper with their uncalibrated dates (BP),  50% of  them falls within 45 years of each other and 18% within 100 years.  For the remaining 32% (9 samples) the variance is in excess of 100 years and as much as 248 years. At Malhar and Dadupur in table 2, four of the five samples fall within this last category.
In table 1 (earlier work), two of the three older samples in Andra Pradesh also falls within this high variance category. In this case, however, these three samples were apparently ignored when they stated that iron working in India commenced around 1500 to 1300 BC.
In table 2 (later work) the author brings in these high variance samples to conclude that C14 dates show that iron working in India can possibly be moved back to ca 1800 BC. ( The variances are 139, 152, 122, 35, and 215 years).

We must bear in mind that C14 dating is done on plant material surrounding the artifacts and not the artifacts themselves. Depending on the location of these old sites, it is possible that older plant material could have been imported by, for example, floods which would then totally distort the dating of these artifacts. Unfortunately the quoted paper does not give this information.

Dr. Tewari may well be correct with his conclusion but I also believe that we need to look further for other supporting evidence.

The Indus Valley (Harappan) Urban Civilization  appears to have been the most advanced civilization around the Indian sub-continent. This civilization peaked about 4200 years ago after they went into a sudden decline. Some link their demise to drought or famine (the 4.2 ka BP Bond event ?). Remnants of this civilization are thought to have still existed in 1700 BC and even as late as 1300 or 1000 BC. The point is that they are regarded as having been a bronze age people for most of their history. Surely, as the leading culture in the area, one would have expected them to have embraced iron working at a much earlier stage, that is, if iron working was already established in 1800 BC. Yet, we have no evidence of this.

We also have references in the Rig Veda to iron-working around 1500 BC but, nothing earlier.

On the balance of this evidence, I still believe that Iron-working could have been introduced by outsiders around 1500 BC. If, however, I am wrong, it should still not detract from the validity of the OLB. Remember, the OLB never claimed to have brought iron-working to India – I did.
As for my so-called self inflicted foot wound, I am cautiously optimistic that I will not be crippled for life.


#3126    Otharus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:50 PM

View PostOtharus, on 13 February 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.

As soon as one accepts this, much of what is considered to be Frisian 'fantastic' (fantasy based) historiography starts to totally make sense.
As part of an attempt to bridge the gap between the Oera Linda-book and accepted history, here is some more re-interpreted history of Northwestern Europe in the first Millennium.

Improvised translation by me from www.ijpelaan.nl with added notes between [...].

Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni ~ part 1

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frisia, 590 - 833 [should be: 793?] AD

Before there were Romans in the Netherlands (12 BC) Drusus, ruler of Gallia mastered the Frisi. The Frisi are already mentioned by Tacitus (Book IV; 15, 16, 18, 56, 79), in relation to the Bataves (Béthune area [not Betuwe!]) and the Canninefates (Genech area [not Kennemerland!]), in the Gallic lands.

According to the earliest sources, the Frisi live in the area east of Calais and Dunkirk, near the Saxoni. They are mentioned in 590, when king Chilperik is known as the nightmare of the Frisi and Suevi (inhabitants of Kortrijk and not Sweden or Schwaben, nor Sealand). In 675 they are neighbors of the Morini of Terwaan. In 678 the archbishop of York, Wilfried meets Adgisl, king of the Frisi.

In 687 the Frankish ruler Pepijn II defeats Radbod, king of the Frisi, near the burg Duristado (Audruicq, not Wijk bij Duurstede). In 690 Pepijn the Old rules over the people between the Carbonic Wood (from Boulogne to Trier) and the Meuse (in Henegouwen) till the utter areas of the Frisi (northeast side of the Channel). In 695 king Pepijn leads a battle against the Frisi and their king Radboud; he makes camp near the burg of Dorestadum (Audruicq) where the Frisi, lead by the hubris of Radboud, attack him. This results in a fierce battle that is lost by the Frisi.

Pepijn's successor Karel Martel fights the Frisi in 714, and defeats them in a triomphant but cruel fight, and in a seabattle he also defeats Ebron, a leader of the same peoples, whom he kills as well as 'all of his blasphemous army'. This is his final victory over Fresia, which becomes Frankish territory after the destruction and burning of all idols.

In the battle of Vinciacum (Vinchy, south of Kamerijk, French Cambrai) in 717 Radboud offers help to Chilperik and Regenfried against Karel Martel who flees at first, then attacks them again and finally offers them a peace, which they don't accept. After that Karel wins; Regenfried and Chilperik flee. Radboud takes over Trajectum (Tournehem) that year, but is defeated after that at Vinchy.

Trajectum (Tournehem), also called Viltaburg in 717, is the city of the Vilti and is located on the border of Fresia and Saxonia; in 720 the Wilci or Vilti are mentioned as subgroup of the Saxoni who live on the utter shores of Earth, where Germania borders the (Atlantic) Ocean. In 780 they live near the Saxoni, are a subgroup of the Slavi (Tournehem area, not East-Europe), and live on the coast of the ocean. In their own language they call themselves Waletabi, but the Franks call them Wilzi; they are very hostile towards the Franks.

In 734 the Frisi, a cruel and stubborn tribe, start a revolt. One has difficulties going there over land, as this area is located at and in the sea. Karel Martel assembles a fleet of ships and gallows to get there, he struggles to reach the sea, and when he has enough ships he attacks Westrachia (area west of Atrecht, French Arras) and Austrachia (Ostrevant near Atrecht), the islands of the Frisi, where he destroys everything with fire and murder. He settles his army near the Burdina river (not the Boorne in Friesland, but the Bourre between Hazebrouck and Merville). He defeats the army of Radbode, the commander of the Frisi and destroys their sacred sites and idols. In 747 the Frisi once more stand up against the Franks, together with the Saxoni and the Winidi (from Winnezeele near Cassel).

These informations about the Frisi are usually ignored [left unmentioned by traditionalist historians] because hardly anyone dares to keep placing them in Friesland or Holland, by which they [implicitly] admit that the Frisi must have lived somewhere else.

In 753 toll-freedom for the market is confirmed for the monastery of St.Denis near Paris, for both the Saxoni and the Frisi; in 763 Karloman confirms the abbey of St.Denis in her marketright over all traders, again for both Saxoni and Frisi. In 779 Karel the Great (Charlemagne) confirms for the abbey of St.-Germain-de-Prés near Paris freedom of toll in Traiecto (Tournehem) en Dorstado (Audruicq) and a range of other French cities.

Circa 790, under Karel the Great, the Lex Frisionum is assembled. The society consists of a regis (king), nobiles (nobles), liberes (frees), lites (semi-frees) and serves (slaves).

When Karel the Great in 793 travels to Pannonia (northeast of France) he hears that the troops under command of Thedericus [a Frankish name?!], reeve of Frisia (Dirk Zero), were caught and destroyed by the Saxoni in Rhuistria (Hestrus near St.-Pol-sur-Ternoise). He realises that a channel is needed between the rivers Radantia and Elmonum so that he can easily from the Danubis (Aisne, not Danube) reach the Renus (Scheldt, not Rhine), which from one side is connected with the Danubis (Aisne), on the other side with the Moena (Meuse, Moeze or Maas). He has this work done in the autumn.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

... to be continued.

Edited by Otharus, 15 February 2011 - 01:18 PM.


#3127    Otharus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:05 PM

View PostOtharus, on 15 February 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

As part of an attempt to bridge the gap between the Oera Linda-book and accepted history, here is some more re-interpreted history of Northwestern Europe in the first Millennium.

Improvised translation by me from www.ijpelaan.nl with added notes between [...].

Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni ~ part 1
(...)
... to be continued.
Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni ~ part 2

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The Normanni in Frisia, 800 - 885 AD

In 800 a Frisian island, near the coast of Germania, is plundered by Normanni. In 808 Karel the Great has ships built to defend Gallia and Germania; at all harbors and estuaries watchtowers and strongholds are built. Godfried the Norman (not to be confused with the later Norman with the same name) spreads some destruction in 809. In 810 a fleet of 200 ships comes from Normandy to Fresia, all islands near the coast are devastated and the Normanni reach the mainland. In 811 a mandatory defensive 'military service' is arranged in the area between Loire and Renus (Scheldt).

Karel the Great writes between 804 and 811 in a letter to abbot Fulradus of St.-Quentin that he wants a political meeting in Saxonia, in Starasfort (Strazeele near Hazebroek) at the Bota river (Bourre); he asks the abbot to come there with armed men. In 808 he sends his son Karel with a big army of Franks and Saxoni to the Albis (Aa, not Elbe) against Godfried, king of the Normanni.

In 814 a quarrel starts between the sons of Godfried, king of the Dani. His son Heriold asks and gets protection from emperor Lodewijk and moves to Saxonia. The emperor commands the Saxoni and the Abodriti (Hébuterne) to help Heriold; but the troops don't dare attack the Normanni. In Padrabrunna (Pierremont, not Paderborn) a political gathering of the empire is held where messengers of the Normanni come to offer peace. In 825 Heriold and his wife come with a crowd of Normanni to Mainz (or is it Mainvillers?) or Ingelenheim (Inglinghem near Mentque-Nortbécourt?) to be baptised by St. Albanus. After that Heriold returns to Fresia, where he is made reeve of Hriustri (Hestrus near St.-Pol-sur-Ternoise).

In 834 a fleet of Normanni invades Frisia and destroys part of it. From there they move over Vetus Trajectum (Tournehem) to the harbor called Dorestadus (Audruicq) and destroy all of it. Some people they kill, others they take as prisoners. They burn part of the city. In 838 the emperor is hunting in Verberie at Compiégne, when the messengers of Rorik ask him to hand over the posession of the lands of the Frisiani and the Abodriti (Hébuterne). In 840 there is a threat again of the Normanni and emperor Lodewijk the Pious fears that they will unite with the Slavi (Tournehem area), who are related to the Stellingi (Escoeuilles, not Stellingwerf); he increases the protection of the Renus (Scheldt) areas.

In 841 the Normanni destroy the land up to Atrecht (French Arras); monks flee with the relics of St.Vaast through Fresia to England. In 845 king Rorik of the Normanni invades Germania with 600 ships through the Albis river (Aa, not Elbe). The Saxoni slay him. In Fresia the Normanni are slain once, but they are the victors twice; in Saxonia they destroy Hammaburg (Hames-Boucres, not Hamburg).

Godfried, the son of Hariold the Norman who was baptised in Mainz (or Mainvillers?), attacks Fresia in 852 with a fleet of ships and invades the Scheldt area. In 858 the Saxoni resist attacks of the Normanni and in 872 they are slain by the Frisi. In 879 the emperor sends messengers to the Egidora river (Authie), that is the border between the territories of the Saxoni and the Normanni. In 880 king Lodewijk sends his army to the Scheldt, where the Normanni are at that time. He slays more than 5,000 of them, among whom Hugo, son of the king. In Saxonia the Normanni prove to be stronger and kill two bishops and twelve reeves. In 885 an army of non-Christians invaded Germania in the area of the Old Saxoni, that was called Ealdseaxum in the Saxon language. The Saxoni and the Frisi go into battle with them.

In 880 the Normanni are given Normandy by emperor Karel who does not succeed in taming them. Godfried the Norman, a.k.a. the Sea-king, rules over Frisia untill he is killed in 885 near Herispich in the Batua (Quierzy near Noyon, according to other sources Eragny, north of Conflans-Ste-Honorine, NOT Spijk near Lobith). After that nothing is ever heard again of Normanni in Fresia.

Who were the Normanni? In 590 Gregorius from Tours mentions the Dani who by then had been known to have lived in Normandy for a long time and who could impossibly have come from Scandinavia. More than probably groups of Saxoni joined them and copied their methods. As early as from the fifth century ships have been found with dragon-heads that are believed to have belonged to Saxon pirates. In 670 for the first time Northomanni are mentioned by the geographer of Ravenna. More than probably it was groups of Saxoni, who were called Normanni or Dani because they had similar trades, and who were chased after by Karel the Great and his successors, who moved further up north to eventually settle in Denmark and spread further [north] from there.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

... to be continued.

Edited by Otharus, 15 February 2011 - 01:30 PM.


#3128    Abramelin

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:59 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 15 February 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

Hey thanks Abe... some great pics not so great the language.

Does this deal solely with Beowulf? If not do you know of an English site or equivalent which takes up the rest.

Note: I am using Linux which has no translator that I can find.

http://en.wikipedia....ngist_and_Horsa

I had a book which said the night of the long knives took place at Stonehenge. However not sure if true.

Use Google Translator:

http://translate.google.nl/#

And no, it's not only about Beowulf. Sorry, I have a guest (and he's a pain in the rear, be back later).


#3129    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

Use Google Translator:

http://translate.google.nl/#

And no, it's not only about Beowulf. Sorry, I have a guest (and he's a pain in the rear, be back later).

Thanks Abe I forgot google thingy.

Oh and back to you are killing me..."Pain in the rear":lol:


#3130    Abramelin

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:14 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 15 February 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thanks Abe I forgot google thingy.

Oh and back to you are killing me..."Pain in the rear":lol:

He's gone for a while but he will be back soon...sigh.

An ex-captain from the Croatian army.

He talks, and you just listen. Even when you only inhale to prevent turning blue while he is talking (and he never stops talking) he orders you to stop anyway, and keep on listening.

But he's ok for the rest, but he's just nuts (war-trauma or something).


-------------

I think you know about this:

In the Bronze Age and the Iron Age the transfer of place-names was due to the so-called Sea Peoples, who, judging by their names, were Celts and Gauls from the Atlantic seaboard who sailed into the Mediterranean as early as the second millenium BC as recorded by the Egyptians. What is more, Herodotus tells us that the city of Athens was founded by a non-Greek people, the Pelasgians, meaning Sea Peoples. According to him, the Pelasgians changed the names of many Greek towns and began speaking Greek when they had integrated with the local population.

Peleset (Pelasgians - "who dwell on the sea", people from the Low Countries)


http://www.troy-in-e...-of-england.htm
http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/


---------

And I think Otharus should read this:

Charles-Joseph de Grave, République des Champs élysées, ou, Monde ancien : ouvrage dans lequel on démontre principalement : que les Champs élysées et l'Enfer des anciens sont le nom d'une ancienne république d'hommes justes et religieux, située a l'extrémité septentrionale de la Gaule, et surtout dans les îles du Bas-Rhin : que cet Enfer a été le premier sanctuaire de l'initiation aux mỳsteres, et qu'Ulysse y a été initié ... : que les poètes Homère et Hésiode sont originaires de la Belgique, &c., De l'imprimerie de P.-F. de Goesin-Verhaeghe, Gent, 1806; OCLC: 53145878

http://nl.wikipedia....lag#cite_note-5


The ones who wrote the OLB must have been aware of these theories....


.
.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 February 2011 - 03:18 PM.


#3131    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:38 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

He's gone for a while but he will be back soon...sigh.

An ex-captain from the Croatian army.

He talks, and you just listen. Even when you only inhale to prevent turning blue while he is talking (and he never stops talking) he orders you to stop anyway, and keep on listening.

But he's ok for the rest, but he's just nuts (war-trauma or something).


-------------

I think you know about this:

In the Bronze Age and the Iron Age the transfer of place-names was due to the so-called Sea Peoples, who, judging by their names, were Celts and Gauls from the Atlantic seaboard who sailed into the Mediterranean as early as the second millenium BC as recorded by the Egyptians. What is more, Herodotus tells us that the city of Athens was founded by a non-Greek people, the Pelasgians, meaning Sea Peoples. According to him, the Pelasgians changed the names of many Greek towns and began speaking Greek when they had integrated with the local population.

Peleset (Pelasgians - "who dwell on the sea", people from the Low Countries)


http://www.troy-in-e...-of-england.htm
http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/


---------

And I think Otharus should read this:

Charles-Joseph de Grave, République des Champs élysées, ou, Monde ancien : ouvrage dans lequel on démontre principalement : que les Champs élysées et l'Enfer des anciens sont le nom d'une ancienne république d'hommes justes et religieux, située a l'extrémité septentrionale de la Gaule, et surtout dans les îles du Bas-Rhin : que cet Enfer a été le premier sanctuaire de l'initiation aux mỳsteres, et qu'Ulysse y a été initié ... : que les poètes Homère et Hésiode sont originaires de la Belgique, &c., De l'imprimerie de P.-F. de Goesin-Verhaeghe, Gent, 1806; OCLC: 53145878

http://nl.wikipedia....lag#cite_note-5


The ones who wrote the OLB must have been aware of these theories....


.
.
Thanks again Abe... I had a vision of you expecting a young lady at the door instead some old tramp turns up with a mug asking "Can you spare a dime?"

I have to say using google translator is hard work though. I will have to use it in sound bites.

Yes again I am very aware of Wilkens books. I have a First edition of the 91 edition and a 95 edition paperback. So naturally I keep chirping on about it.
Strange thing is years before Wilkens books I thought it was Celts->Pelasgians->=Greeks but he has done a much better job than I could.


#3132    Otharus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:46 PM

View PostOtharus, on 15 February 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni ~ part 2
(...)
... to be continued.
Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni ~ part 3

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The Saxoni deported by Karel the Great, 775 - 804 AD

Just like the Frisi the Saxoni live in the north of France too, where they are already mentioned in the second century by Ptolomeus between other tribes in France and where they lived ever since at the Saxon coast north of Normandy. Not before the tenth century do the Saxons show up for the first time in the north of Germany.

In 775 the Saxoni who live on both shores of the Albis (Aa, not Elbe), are slain by Karel the Great after years of war, and spread in small groups over Gallia and Germania.

When in 782 the noblest of the Saxoni come to discuss things with Karel the Great, he interrogates them about who started the revolt. When all of them point to Widikind who has fled to the Dani (Normandy), he has 4,500 men their heads slain off on one day near the Alara river (Almere is meant), at the village that is called Ferdia (a.k.a. Werethina, Fréthun near Calais).

In 793 Ludger, a Saxon himself, founds a monastery at Werethina (Fréthun). Circa 850 that has to be moved because of attacks by Normanni, and it is relocated to Munster where Werethina soon changes into 'Werden'. As a result St.Ludger is later understood to have been the first bishop of Munster and the massacre is also displaced there.

In 784, during a big flood, Karel the Great attacks the Saxoni from Turinga (Doornik, not Thüringen) with a part of the Frisi. In 785 Widukind comes to Attigny to be baptised. In 792 Karel the Great takes over the Saxon burg Aresberg (Aremberg near Valenciennes). In 794 he sends his army in two divisions to Saxonia, the first under his own command, the other he sends with his son over Colonia (Coulogne near Calais). He destroys virtually all of the lands. The Saxoni get together in Sinaisfeld (St.-Inglevert near Wissant, not in the Wittmund area). When they realise they have been trapped, they surrender. Karel the Great has every third man deported to Francia and travels to Bardengoi (Wervicq). When he hears that the Saxoni have killed the commander of the Abodriti (Hébuterne), he crosses the Albis (Aa, not Elbe) near Hluni (Ligny-lès-Aire near Aire-sur-la-Lys) and slays the Saxoni from the marshes of the Albis (Aa) and those from Wigmondigas (Withmundi near Wissant), after which he returns to Bardunwik (Wervicq).

In 796 during a new campaign against the Saxoni, he crosses the Wisera river (Wimereux, Lys is ment) near Alisni (Hallines near St.-Omaars) and travels to Wigmodinga (Withmundi). In 797 he starts a new expedition to Saxonia up to the ocean through all the marshes and over flat roads. From all directions Saxoni and Frisi come to him. During his stay [in Saxonia], Karel the Great has a third of the Saxoni with their women and children deported out of their country. He does not stop until he has enslaved the utter territories of the Saxoni, namely the area between the Albis (Aa, not Elbe) and the Wissura (Wimereux, not Wezer), that is touched by the ocean. The king travels through the marshes and hard-to-get places up to Hoduloha (Oudezeele near Cassel). In 798 the Nordluidi (one of the two Northouts), who live on the other side of the Albis (Aa), start a revolt. Karel the Great destroys all of the land between Albis (Aa) and Wisura (Wimereux).

In 799 he crosses the Renus (Scheldt) and the Lippia (Lys, not Lippe) and camps his army at Padrabrunno (Pierremont, not Paderborn). He sends his son Karel with half of the troops to the Slavi (Tournehem area, not eastern Europe) and keeps the other half with him to prepare a warm welcome for pope Leo. Again he has part of the Saxoni deported; their country is donated to his most loyal followers.

In 804 again he marches an army to Saxonia; crossing the Alare (the Almere north of Calais) to Oldonostath (Audrehem), from there to Wimodia (Withmundi), to Hostingabi (Hottinghem) and Rosogavi (Rougefay). All Saxoni, who live over the Albis (Aa) and in the Wimuodi (Withmundi) area, he has deported with their women and children to Francia.

In 853 Saxonia is under the rule of Karel the Boldhead, king of West-Francia (France) and Saxonia is mentioned in between all French districts; in 898 Saxonia is ruled by Karel the Simpleminded, thus still part of West-Francia.

Many of the Saxoni who were deported by Karel the Great are resettled in uninhabited areas of Germany, where since 936 in documents the term Nether-Saxony starts being used (there is no Upper-Saxony). It is a territory that consists  mostly of marshy forests. Many toponyms from the old homelands are imported into Germany so they are doubled [like Amersfoort in South Africa].

Later this leads to many mistakes when the old documents are no longer understood in relocated monasteries, namely Werden in Nether-Saxony, that came from the French Fréthun, and Corvey in Hessen, that came from the French Corbie. The same may not be true for the monasteries of Lorsch in Westfalen and Fulda in Hessen, although they too initially had most of their possessions in North-France.

At the end of the eleventh century Adam von Bremen starts relocating as much North-French history to the north of Germany as possible, starting with Hamburg (St.Anscharius who had his seat in Hammaburg, that is Hames-Boucres east of Boulogne) and for Bremen (Brema, that is Brêmes east of Ardres). As soon as that was accepted to be true, all of North-Germany obviously wanted a piece of the medieval pie, which started a chain reaction.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Edited by Otharus, 15 February 2011 - 05:12 PM.


#3133    Alewyn

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

I think you know about this:

In the Bronze Age and the Iron Age the transfer of place-names was due to the so-called Sea Peoples, who, judging by their names, were Celts and Gauls from the Atlantic seaboard who sailed into the Mediterranean as early as the second millenium BC as recorded by the Egyptians. What is more, Herodotus tells us that the city of Athens was founded by a non-Greek people, the Pelasgians, meaning Sea Peoples. According to him, the Pelasgians changed the names of many Greek towns and began speaking Greek when they had integrated with the local population.

Peleset (Pelasgians - "who dwell on the sea", people from the Low Countries)

[/i]

The ones who wrote the OLB must have been aware of these theories....

Sigh.
I told you this months ago except that the Sea Peoples were Frisians and not Celts and/or Gauls.

“Survivors of the Great Tsunami”, Chapter 4,
Page 132:
“The Ionian Athenians were called a Pelasgic Race with a barbarous, language. One of the most credible explanations of the term Pelasgic came from Vladimir Georgiev . He asserted that pelasgoi came from pelasgos (sea) which would then mean that the Pelasgic people are the Sea People – precisely what the Oera Linda Book called them 4 000 years ago.
“Contrary to modern proposals, the Pelasgians were not the original primitive inhabitants of Greece. This hypothesis proposes that they were the latecomers and the Frisian founders of the later advanced Greek civilisation. It is also significant to note that Ovid and other ancient scribes referred to them as the great Pelasgian nation.”

Page 135
“The name ‘barbarian’ comes from the Greek  ‘Barbarŏs ‘or ‘Barbaroi.’ The word is said  to have imitated the ‘bar-bar ‘sound which is what the language of these non-Greek speakers would have sounded like to the Greeks.”

Page 136
“It is, however, evident that not all non-Greeks or foreigners were called Barbarians – only those that spoke the ‘Bar-bar’ language.”

“Most references in the ancient texts to ‘barbarŏs’ should have been interpreted as a proper noun with a capital B instead of a common collective noun. (compare ‘Barbarian’ as in ‘European’ to ‘barbarian’ as in ‘savage’). They were certainly not savages although many of the ancient scribes stereotyped them as such. Admittedly, certain groups on the fringes of civilization did behave like or were associated with savages.
Herodotus, in the introduction to his Histories, wrote:

‘These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory; ’”

But, alas, you will again say that all these facts were known in the 19th century and were used by the hoaxer(s) to create the OLB.

Another thought: It is amazing that the OLB hoaxer(s) spent so much time in researching history, then put a slant to it so that it deviates from the accepted history or known legends on crucial points. Yet, he/they still had to ensure that it still made sense and remained coherent. In other words, he/they had to be very careful that the OLB did not contradict itself.
After all this trouble, he/they went and wrote it in a language that nobody understood. To crown it all, after what must have been years of labour he/they slipped it into the public domain without any hope of ever making a single penny (gulden?) out of it.
Makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say?

Edit:
Ah. I get it now. He/they did it for the greater glory of Friesland. That is why he/they wished to remain anonymous

Edited by Alewyn, 15 February 2011 - 08:24 PM.


#3134    Abramelin

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:53 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 15 February 2011 - 08:06 PM, said:

Sigh.
I told you this months ago except that the Sea Peoples were Frisians and not Celts and/or Gauls.

“Survivors of the Great Tsunami”, Chapter 4,
Page 132:
“The Ionian Athenians were called a Pelasgic Race with a barbarous, language. One of the most credible explanations of the term Pelasgic came from Vladimir Georgiev . He asserted that pelasgoi came from pelasgos (sea) which would then mean that the Pelasgic people are the Sea People – precisely what the Oera Linda Book called them 4 000 years ago.
“Contrary to modern proposals, the Pelasgians were not the original primitive inhabitants of Greece. This hypothesis proposes that they were the latecomers and the Frisian founders of the later advanced Greek civilisation. It is also significant to note that Ovid and other ancient scribes referred to them as the great Pelasgian nation.”

Page 135
“The name ‘barbarian’ comes from the Greek  ‘Barbarŏs ‘or ‘Barbaroi.’ The word is said  to have imitated the ‘bar-bar ‘sound which is what the language of these non-Greek speakers would have sounded like to the Greeks.”

Page 136
“It is, however, evident that not all non-Greeks or foreigners were called Barbarians – only those that spoke the ‘Bar-bar’ language.”

“Most references in the ancient texts to ‘barbarŏs’ should have been interpreted as a proper noun with a capital B instead of a common collective noun. (compare ‘Barbarian’ as in ‘European’ to ‘barbarian’ as in ‘savage’). They were certainly not savages although many of the ancient scribes stereotyped them as such. Admittedly, certain groups on the fringes of civilization did behave like or were associated with savages.
Herodotus, in the introduction to his Histories, wrote:

‘These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory; ’”

But, alas, you will again say that all these facts were known in the 19th century and were used by the hoaxer(s) to create the OLB.

Another thought: It is amazing that the OLB hoaxer(s) spent so much time in researching history, then put a slant to it so that it deviates from the accepted history or known legends on crucial points. Yet, he/they still had to ensure that it still made sense and remained coherent. In other words, he/they had to be very careful that the OLB did not contradict itself.
After all this trouble, he/they went and wrote it in a language that nobody understood. To crown it all, after what must have been years of labour he/they slipped it into the public domain without any hope of ever making a single penny (gulden?) out of it.
Makes perfect sense, wouldn't you say?

Edit:
Ah. I get it now. He/they did it for the greater glory of Friesland. That is why he/they wished to remain anonymous


I do remember what I read in your book.


But what I read was known in the 19th century.

You seem to think these guys were ignorant.

Halbertsma had the knowledge and the motive, and he sure as hell would have known of these 19th century stories.

Grave, the Belgium guy. created a captivating story about the great history of the inhabitants of the Belgium area.

He thought Flanders was nothing but Atlantis.

READ his book.


#3135    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:21 PM

I have also suggested this on the Troy threads:

["The Ionian Athenians were called a Pelasgic Race with a barbarous,  language. One of the most credible explanations of the term Pelasgic  came from Vladimir Georgiev . He asserted that pelasgoi came from  pelasgos (sea) which would then mean that the Pelasgic people are the  Sea People – precisely what the Oera Linda Book called them 4 000 years  ago.
"Contrary to modern proposals, the Pelasgians were not the original  primitive inhabitants of Greece. This hypothesis proposes that they were  the latecomers and the Frisian founders of the later advanced Greek  civilisation. It is also significant to note that Ovid and other ancient  scribes referred to them as the great Pelasgian nation."/]

I doesn't worry me if they are called Trojans or Frisians or indeed Pelasgians more that they could converse with people from both sides of the North Sea.This to me makes the Pelasgians relatively new arrivals in Britain. However since history is taught in a totally linear way any errors will become irrefutable until new methods of the sciences can prove otherwise. But what chance when new theories are not even given scant regard? The answer is anyones guess.

Edited by Flashbangwollap, 15 February 2011 - 11:22 PM.