11638 replies to this topic

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 07:41 AM, said:

The Minoans and Phoenicians WERE Indo-Europeans. What made you think they weren't??

Yes, the OLB speaks of a flood, and I have posted about a part of that poem by Willem van Haren (18th century), in which he mentioned a great flood that separated England from the European mainland. A flood accompanied with earthquakes and mountains 'crumbling', and so on. The problem, however, is that scientists found out that that flood (a huge tsumami caused by the Storegga Slide) took place around 6145 BC, a 4000 years before the flood mentioned in the OLB. So why does the OLB talk about 2194 BC?? Well, because that was the accepted date for the Biblical Flood by Frisian 19th century theologians/historians.

--

EDIT:

You ask about a theory why Punic and Runic seem similar, but I gave you one, yesterday (Theo Venneman).


--

Yep, I get your drift, lol. I hope you also get mine.

.

I think of Phoenicians as semitic rather than indo-european culturally though they may well have acquired indo-european ethnicities. Minoans I would put into the PIE or Iberian group so though they are very close to indo-europeans for me they do precede what we generally think of as IE cultures. If I'm wrong I'd like to know where my logic is going wrong.

I think I get Venneman's theory but I still think it makes more sense for Runic and Punic to have originated out of the region around Lake Van. This would also link in the Indo-Iranians potentially as I did like the connections that Puzzler was making.

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 02 May 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:

I think of Phoenicians as semitic rather than indo-european culturally though they may well have acquired indo-european ethnicities. Minoans I would put into the PIE or Iberian group so though they are very close to indo-europeans for me they do precede what we generally think of as IE cultures. If I'm wrong I'd like to know where my logic is going wrong.

I think I get Venneman's theory but I still think it makes more sense for Runic and Punic to have originated out of the region around Lake Van. This would also link in the Indo-Iranians potentially as I did like the connections that Puzzler was making.

Semites ARE Indo-Euopean, like the Hindustans, Celts, Germans, Scandinavians, Iranians/Persians, Slavs are.

I think you are confusing language with genetics.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 May 2011 - 08:40 AM.

[Abramelin]

Btw, I found that post about the flood according to the poem by Willem van Haren, and it's my post 3048, page 204 (10 February 2011 - 07:50 PM). A direct link doesn't work because 2 threads have been merged.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

Semites ARE Indo-Euopean, like the Hindustans, Celts, Germans, Scandinavians, Iranians/Persians, Slavs are.

I think you are confusing language with genetics.

That could be it.   So Hebrew is a semitic language, is it also indo-european? Is Punic both?

Are Iranians/Persians indo-european or indo-iranian or is there no real difference?

See I tend to group things into afro-asiatic and indo-european with a fair bit of cross over between the two that confuses the situation greatly. An ancient culture can cross languages and genetics also but I did think semitic and indo-european languages were distinct just like the genetics are. There's always cross over but to group people into patterns is generally quite helpful for amateur historians.

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 02 May 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

That could be it.   So Hebrew is a semitic language, is it also indo-european? Is Punic both?

Are Iranians/Persians indo-european or indo-iranian or is there no real difference?

See I tend to group things into afro-asiatic and indo-european with a fair bit of cross over between the two that confuses the situation greatly. An ancient culture can cross languages and genetics also but I did think semitic and indo-european languages were distinct just like the genetics are. There's always cross over but to group people into patterns is generally quite helpful for amateur historians.

Hebrew is a Semitic language, and Semitic languages are Indo-European.

Jews, Arabs, Berbers, Persians/Iranians, Pakistans, Irish, Swedes, Germans, Slavs, Indians are all Indo-European people, Caucasoids.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:

Btw, I found that post about the flood according to the poem by Willem van Haren, and it's my post 3048, page 204 (10 February 2011 - 07:50 PM). A direct link doesn't work because 2 threads have been merged.

I have been sweating for a while today to translate the part of the 1741 poem of Willem van Haren, the part about the flood. It's maybe not a perfect translation, but I think it will do.

Here it is (after every > follows the translation in English of the previous line in Dutch):



(...)
En, met Argentorix, de naauwe stromen door

> And, with Argentorix, through narrow currents

Die naar de koude zeen der woeste Skyten leiden,

> that lead to the cold sees of the feroceous Scyths

En van het Britsche Ryk het groote Europe scheiden.

> and separate the British Empire of great Europe

Hier leefde een oud gerugt, dat Vader Oceaan,

> (T)Here was an old rumpour, that Father ocean,

Vermoeid langs Thyle's kust ten Noorder Troon te gaan,

> tired of going along Thule's coast to the Northern Throne,

Om d'Yszeen aan het strand des Samojeeds te stieren,

> to steer icy sees to the coasts of the Samojeds,

Een zamenkomst beval der Westersche Rivieren.

> ordered a meeting of the western Rivers.

Den Betis, die den Wal van Hispalis besproeid,

> The Guadalquivir, who sprays the Wall of Seville,

En door een vrugtbaar Land en vette Weiden vloeid;

> and flows through a fertile land and rich pastures;

De zil'vre Gadiane, op Zwanendons gedragen;

> The silver Guadiana, carried on Swans's down;

Den ryken Taag, gevoerd op eenen gouden wagen,

> The rich Tagus, carried on a golden wagon,

Met Vorstelyk gebaar, en Koninklyken zwier;

> with a regal gesture, and royal panache;

Den Durias, gekroond met Roos en Violier,

> The  Douro, crowned with Rose and Stock Gillyflower,

En houdende eenen krans van Bloemen in zyn handen;

> and keeping a garland of flowers in his hands;

De snoevende Garonne in 't midden harer banden;

> The boasting Garonne in the middle of her bonds;

De Loire, die, hoewel groot van gestaltenis,

> The Loire, which, though tall of stature,

Der gunsten van de Faam het minst deelagtig is;

> shares fame the least;

De Sein, die, door zich zelv' met Lauweren te cieren,

> The Seine, which, by adorning itself with laurels

De Heerschappy begeerd van alle de Rivieren;

> covets the dominion of all Rivers;

En een oneindig tal van mindre Watergoôn;

> And an endless number of lesser watergods;

Riep Triton's schelle hoorn voor Amfitrites Troon.

> Called on Triton's horn in front of Amfrites' throne.

Daar op deed de Oceaan hen alle in orde scharen,

> There the Ocean made them line up in order,

En, duizend voeten hoog verheffende zyn baren,

> And, raising his waves a 1000 feet high,

Viel op de Landstreek aan, die 't Albionsche strand

> attacked on the land that attached the Albion beach

Aan 't ryke Europe hegtte; en, duwend met zyn hand,

> to wealthy Europe; and, pushing with his hand,

De Bergen van hun' grond, de Rotsen van haar vesten,

> The Mountains from their bases, the Rocks from their footings,

Gaf hy 't verwonnen Land aan 't gramme Volk ten besten.

> He gave the captured (?) lands to the angry mob [= the rivers]

Elk nam, op dezen last, een Rots of heuvel meê,

> Each took from this burden a rock or a hill along,

En maalde die tot gruis, en spreide ze in de Zee.

> And grinded it to gravel, and spread them to the Sea.

De Koning Oceaan reed fluks langs effen zanden,

> King Ocean travelled swiftly along smooth sands,

Van 't bruisschend nat gevolgd, naar de Aloceesche stranden:

> From the fizzing waters to the Alocean beaches:

En van dien tyd af aan wierd Albion een Ryk

> And from that time Albion became an Empire

Voor buitenlandsche magt, onoverwinnelyk.

> Invincible for foreign powers.

http://www.dbnl.org/...04geva01_01.pdf

(According to the poem, Argentorix is the son of Coïlus, King of the Brittons. He met Friso on the Isle of Wight, and begged him for help. He shows Friso the way to the Land of the Alans = Frisia. I still have no idea where to locate those "Alocean beaches".)

What I found strange is, that only Spanish, Portugese and French rivers are mentioned, and not rivers in Northern Europe (like the Thames, Rhine, and so on).

Location of Thule/Thyle (for this poem that is):

Thule (pronounced /ˈθuːliː/ or ˈθjuːli;[1][2][3] from Greek Θούλη, Thoulē), also spelled Thula, Thila, or Thyïlea, is, in classical European literature and maps, a region in the far north. Though often considered to be an island in antiquity, modern interpretations of what was meant by Thule often identify it as Norway.[2][4] Other interpretations include the Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands, and Scandinavia. In the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, Thule was often identified as Iceland or Greenland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 May 2011 - 11:00 AM.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Hebrew is a Semitic language, and Semitic languages are Indo-European.

Jews, Arabs, Berbers, Persians/Iranians, Pakistans, Irish, Swedes, Germans, Slavs, Indians are all Indo-European people, Caucasoids.

Got ya. I was working on the assumption that Afro-Asiatics could still be caucasoid without having to be IE, which only really arose as a language and culture between the 2nd and 1st milleniums BCE but I guess that is when the peoples you mentioned really came to prominence as a disticnt culture with language and beliefs. Indo-Europeans covers all caucasoids and not just one part of them, I understand. Languages like Basque are on a separate branch to IE and may correspond to other indigenous groups that were overrun by IE cultures.

Very interesting poem. Do we know the poets sources as they clearly indicate a tidal wave or tsunami but he may have imagined this or heard it somewhere else? FRisian sources perhaps, I still can't find good sources for Alans if you could help.

This was all I could find and not related to Alans but may help with OLB debate. Sorry if already mentioned.

Quote

Finn, son of Folcwald, was a legendary Frisian lord. He is mentioned in Widsith, in Beowulf, and in the Finnsburg Fragment. There is also a Finn mentioned in Historia Brittonum.

He was married to Hildeburh, a sister of the Danish lord Hnæf, and was killed in a fight with Hnæf's lieutenant Hengest after Hnæf was himself killed by Frisians.

A passage from Beowulf as translated by Seamus Heaney (lines 1089–1090) reads:

"Finn, son of Folcwald,
should honour the Danes,..."
A possible reference to a lost tradition on Finn appears in Snorri Sturluson's Skáldskaparmál. Snorri talks of the animosity between Eadgils and Onela (which also appears in Beowulf), and writes that Aðils (Eadgils) was at war with a Norwegian king named Áli (Onela). Áli died in the war, and Aðils took Áli's helmet Battle-boar and his horse Raven. The Danish berserkers who had helped him win the war demanded three pounds of gold each in pay, and two pieces of armour that nothing could pierce: the helmet battle-boar and the mailcoat Finn's heritage. They also wanted the famous ring Svíagris. Aðils considered the pay outrageous and refused.

Finn is a central subject of Finn and Hengest, a study of the Finnesburg Episode by J. R. R. Tolkien, edited by Alan Bliss and published posthumously in book form in 1982.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Finn_(Frisian)

So there was a strong tradition about Finn that could have become Finda. OLB writers could easily have used this to add substance to the legends. Or where they drawing on another source for the legend.

We don't even have to look to the Med in any way other than an example of how coastal cultures operated in ancient history. The coasts of the North and Baltic Seas provide ample space for lots of adventures of cultures and plenty that could have been victim of a giant wave. There is no real need to look too far east and probably not south. OLB is an alternative North European history and the mystery would seem to be whether there was an influence in Europe that came from the east specifically Persia, Assyria and Zoroaster.

Do the Magyar claim descent from Magi and why do Huns and Magyars have myths they descend from Nimrod? Magyar appear in OLB right as do potentially the Golan Heights. They were not discoverd until relatively recently so their inclusion in the OLB add a lot of authenticity to the truth of at least some of the story. I'm not clear on the order but if true it would tie it in with other religious traditions on the Nephilim, Aratta and the power struggle that went on with the Getae and Akkad. So is it two stories merged into one or were regions of influence much wider than we think and this allowed for greater interaction between cultures. Thus allowing for alliances of marriage between ruling elites of distant cultures to assist trade. I'm just trying to think how it might of worked in the transitionary period between descendant matriarchal cultures and ascendednt patriarchal ones. OLB does infer the leadership role of women and this was accurate for a time so does it support authenticity or were the writers visionaries in bringing this issue to light in such a mysterious way. Some people may claim it is fake to promote Frisian nationalism but then why emphasize the role of women when in the 18th century that would have been an unusual viewpoint. Sorry for excess of words.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Hebrew is a Semitic language, and Semitic languages are Indo-European.

Jews, Arabs, Berbers, Persians/Iranians, Pakistans, Irish, Swedes, Germans, Slavs, Indians are all Indo-European people, Caucasoids.

Sorry Abramelin, but Semitic languages ARE NOT Indo-European but are in fact Afro-Asiatic.

Quote

Linguists generally recognize six divisions within the Afro-Asiatic phylum: Amazigh (Berber), Chadic, Cushitic, Egyptian, Omotic, and Semitic.

Afro-Asiatic languages

cormac

[SlimJim22]

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

Sorry Abramelin, but Semitic languages ARE NOT Indo-European but are in fact Afro-Asiatic.


Afro-Asiatic languages

cormac

Righhht. So Cormac, do you have a reason why Punic and Runic would seem similar?

Is Greek AA or IE or a bit of a mix? Languages just get too messy, I'll leave it alone.

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

Sorry Abramelin, but Semitic languages ARE NOT Indo-European but are in fact Afro-Asiatic.



Afro-Asiatic languages

cormac

Yes, you are right; I got the genetics and linguistics mixed up myself, lol.

Btw, I found a Wiki page about Venneman's theory: ~LINK~

According to Vennemann, Afroasiatic seafarers settled the European Atlantic coast and are to be associated with the European Megalithic Culture. They left a superstratum in the Germanic languages and a substratum in the development of Insular Celtic. He claims that "Atlantic" (Semitic or Semitidic) speakers founded coastal colonies beginning in the fifth millennium BC. Thus "Atlantic" influenced the lexicon and structure of Germanic and the structure of Insular Celtic. According to Vennemann, migrating Indo-European speakers encountered non-IE speakers in northern Europe who had already named rivers, mountains and settlements in a language he called "Vasconic". He considered that there were toponyms on the Atlantic coast that were neither Vasconic nor Indo-European. These he considers derive from languages related to the Mediterranean Hamito-Semitic group.

Vennemann bases his theory on the claim that Germanic words without cognates in other Indo-European languages very often belong to semantic fields that are typical for loanwords from a superstratum language, such as warfare, law and communal life. Likewise, he proposes Semitic etymologies for words of unknown or disputed origin; for instance he relates the word bee to Egyptian bj-t or the name Éire, older *īwerijū to *ʼj-wrʼ(m), 'island (of) copper', as in Akkadian weriʼum 'copper'.

Other evidences he adduces for a Semitic superstratum are a Semitic influence on the Germanic form of the Indo-European ablaut system and similarities between Germanic paganism and Mesopotamian mythology, for instance the parallelism between Freyja and Ishtar, goddesses of war and love.

The idea that there is a connection between Insular Celtic and Afroasiatic goes back to John Davies (1632). It was expanded by John Morris-Jones in 1913 and developed further by Vennemann. This position is supported by Pokorny (1927-49) and Vennemann identifies Phoenicians as the likely people. A key factor is the dominant word order in Insular Celtic compared to other IE languages, together with lexical correspondences. Another important factor is the identification of the people later known as Picts. Vennemann holds the position that they spoke an Atlantic language. This belief was also held by Zimmer (1898) but is not generally accepted.



Vennemann's theory is widely disputed if not discarded. But if his theory will prove to be true or close to the truth, then I don't think it were the Phoenicians... but the Sardinians. According to genetics they are by far the oldest Indo-European people alive, and their culture is many thousands of years old (and only much later influenced by Phoenicians, and again later, by the Romans).




.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 May 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 02 May 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

Got ya. I was working on the assumption that Afro-Asiatics could still be caucasoid without having to be IE, which only really arose as a language and culture between the 2nd and 1st milleniums BCE but I guess that is when the peoples you mentioned really came to prominence as a disticnt culture with language and beliefs. Indo-Europeans covers all caucasoids and not just one part of them, I understand. Languages like Basque are on a separate branch to IE and may correspond to other indigenous groups that were overrun by IE cultures.

Very interesting poem. Do we know the poets sources as they clearly indicate a tidal wave or tsunami but he may have imagined this or heard it somewhere else? FRisian sources perhaps, I still can't find good sources for Alans if you could help.

This was all I could find and not related to Alans but may help with OLB debate. Sorry if already mentioned.



http://en.wikipedia....i/Finn_(Frisian)

So there was a strong tradition about Finn that could have become Finda. OLB writers could easily have used this to add substance to the legends. Or where they drawing on another source for the legend.

We don't even have to look to the Med in any way other than an example of how coastal cultures operated in ancient history. The coasts of the North and Baltic Seas provide ample space for lots of adventures of cultures and plenty that could have been victim of a giant wave. There is no real need to look too far east and probably not south. OLB is an alternative North European history and the mystery would seem to be whether there was an influence in Europe that came from the east specifically Persia, Assyria and Zoroaster.

Do the Magyar claim descent from Magi and why do Huns and Magyars have myths they descend from Nimrod? Magyar appear in OLB right as do potentially the Golan Heights. They were not discoverd until relatively recently so their inclusion in the OLB add a lot of authenticity to the truth of at least some of the story. I'm not clear on the order but if true it would tie it in with other religious traditions on the Nephilim, Aratta and the power struggle that went on with the Getae and Akkad. So is it two stories merged into one or were regions of influence much wider than we think and this allowed for greater interaction between cultures. Thus allowing for alliances of marriage between ruling elites of distant cultures to assist trade. I'm just trying to think how it might of worked in the transitionary period between descendant matriarchal cultures and ascendednt patriarchal ones. OLB does infer the leadership role of women and this was accurate for a time so does it support authenticity or were the writers visionaries in bringing this issue to light in such a mysterious way. Some people may claim it is fake to promote Frisian nationalism but then why emphasize the role of women when in the 18th century that would have been an unusual viewpoint. Sorry for excess of words.

The sources of Willem van Haren's 18th century poem could be much earlier Germanic writers; a long time ago I posted a link to a pdf that talks about the Saxon origins (8th century) of the much later Friso legends (Friso coming from India or Jerusalem).

But what did he know of the flooding of Doggerland in the 18th century?? God knows, but they knew of the Dogger Bank, and they knew of stumps of trees showing up at the coasts of the Netherlands and England during low tide, they knew of the Nehalennia votive altars dragged up by fishermen in the 17th century, as well as human bones from the North Sea.

That added with the legends of Avalon, Lyonesse, Ys, and so on, combined with the many medieval floodings (and submerged cities) of the coasts of the Netherlands and Denmark, you can get quite far constructing a new legend.


About those Magyar and Alans, Jim: I know it's maybe a pain, but try to re-read the last 20 pages or so.

[cormac mac airt]

SlimJim22, on 02 May 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Righhht. So Cormac, do you have a reason why Punic and Runic would seem similar?

Is Greek AA or IE or a bit of a mix? Languages just get too messy, I'll leave it alone.

Similar by who's definition? Compare the two:

Punic alphabet

Runic alphabet


Greek is Indo-European.

cormac

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 02 May 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

Similar by who's definition? Compare the two:

Punic alphabet

Runic alphabet


Greek is Indo-European.

cormac

It was this same Vennemann who said the Runes developed from Punic script, and were not influeneced by the Greek script.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

According to genetics they are by far the oldest Indo-European people alive, and their culture is many thousands of years old (and only much later influenced by Phoenicians, and again later, by the Romans).

I'd personally like to see a citation for this, Abramelin. As Indo-European is a language group and genetics deals with ones genes. This is a case of comparing apples and oranges.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 02 May 2011 - 12:39 PM, said:

It was this same Vennemann who said the Runes developed from Punic script, and were not influeneced by the Greek script.

Great, more Lego-linguistics.  

cormac