11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

This is not from the pdf but was looking for what Strabo said, although it's probably online in his works, I just found this other info for now..

The celestial phenomena that pervade the narrative of the Iliad and even dominate it in books five, twenty and twenty-one, were accompanied also by terrestrial changes—Earth, called Hera, participated in the strife among the gods. In the Iliad these terrestrial disturbances are narrated too: earthquakes shook the Trojan plain amid the battle of the celestial gods.

Then terribly thundered the father of the gods and men from on high; and beneath did Poseidon cause the vast earth to quake and the steep crests of the mountains. All the roots of many-fountained Ida were shaken and all her peaks, and the city of the Trojans, and the ships of the Achaeans. And seized with fear in the world below was Aidoneus, lord of the shades . . . Lest above him the earth be cloven by Poseidon, the Shaker of the Earth, and his abode be made plain to view for mortals and immortals . . . So great was the din that arose when the gods clashed in strife.1
Strabo of the first century before the present era and Pliny of the first century of this era were well aware of the physical changes that the area of western Asia Minor and of the Aegean islands did undergo. Some of these changes are ascribed to the time of the Trojan War or the time closely preceding or following it; but others may refer to earlier upheavals.2


Strabo cited Democles “who recalls certain great earthquakes some of which long ago took place about Lydia and Ionia as far north as the Troad, and by their action not only were villages swallowed up, but Mount Sipylus was shattered—in the reign of Tantalus. And lakes arose from swamps, and a tidal wave submerged the Troad.”3

Pliny described the changes in land and sea distribution. “Land is sometimes formed . . . rising suddenly out of the sea. Delos and Rhodes, islands which have now been long famous, are recorded to have risen up in this way. More lately there have been some smaller islands formed,” and he names them: Anapha, Nea, Halone, Thera, Therasia,4 Hiera, and Thia, the last of which appeared in his own time.5

Pindar said that “the isle of Rhodes was not yet to be seen in the open main, but was hidden in the briny depths of the sea” ; then it was born in the darkness—the sun was absent. When the sun finally lighted the earth again, a plot of land was seen “rising from the bottom of the foaming main.”6

Under the heading Lands Which Have Been Separated by the Sea Pliny mentions: “The sea has torn Sicily from Italy,7 Cyprus from Syria, Euboea from Boeotia,” and other similar instances.

Under the heading Islands Which Have Been United to the Main Land Pliny mentions Antissa which was added to Lesbos, Zephyrium to Halicarnassus, and the like in other places.

Lands Which Have Been Totally Changed Into Seas: the sea has totally carried off certain lands, and first of all, if we are to believe Plato, for an immense space where the Atlantic Ocean is now extended. More lately we see what has been produced by our inland sea; Acarnania has been overwhelmed by the Ambracian Gulf, Achaia by the Corinthian, Europe and Asia by the Propontis and Pontus. And besides these, the sea has rent asunder Leucas, Antirrhium, the Hellespont and the two Bospori.”8
Pliny tells about Cities Which Have Been Absorbed by the Sea: Pyrrha and Antissa, Elice and Bura [on the Gulf of Corinth]9 from the island of Cea the sea suddenly tore off 30,000 paces “with many persons on them.” In like manner it carried off Eleusina in Boeotia, and half of the city of Tyndaris in Sicily.

And not to speak of bays and gulfs, the earth feeds on itself: it has devoured the very high mountain of Cybotus with the town of the Curites; also Sipylus in Magnesia, and formerly in the same place, a very celebrated city, which was called Tantalis.10
These descriptions by Pliny have corroborating references in other classical authors.11

Minor changes they were not: the Bosporus tearing Asia apart from Europe, like the breaking of the Mediterranean into the Ocean at Gibraltar were major changes. Smaller changes where single cities were engulfed or isles born could have been the after-effects of the cataclysms, which for hundreds of years still agitated the distorted strata of the earth; even today they have not completely subsided. Some of these changes occurred earlier and some later, but for the most part they occurred in historical times; the memory of them survived, and the same testimony comes from all quarters of the globe.

In the effort to regard the fantastic events in the sky as pure invention or flights of poetic imagination, the terrestrial changes described by Homer were also kept out of the discussion. Actually, Carl Blegen rejected Wilhelm Doerpfeld’s identification of Troy VI with the Troy of the siege because he found that the walls and structures of Troy VI had been destroyed by an earthquake apparently oblivious of the fact that the Iliad contains a description of an earthquake at the final stage of the siege.12

Thus Blegen became besieged by contradictions, derived from misinterpreting the Iliad and from following an erroneous chronology as well. To the confusion of the Furtwängler-Dörpfeld debate,13 a misreading of the Iliad brought more confusion, and made the tragedy complete.
http://www.varchive.org/dag/cilas.htm

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 May 2011 - 07:48 AM.

[Alewyn]

Leonardo, on 05 May 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:

Alewyn,

As I stated previously, our planet is very active. Around the time you speak of, give or take a century or two, there were undoubtedly some localised catastrophes - a flood, volcanic eruption, maybe even an impactor. Because early communities tended to arise near water, or on fertile land such as found near volcanoes, and these early communities were not only relatively small, but quite fragile when compared to today's communities, local events which might cause some hardship today were fatal to them.

However, the only event around that time that we know of which had a global, or near-global effect was climactic - the drying of the Sahel.

Leonardo,

First of all, we are not talking of the drying out of the Sahel only, but of the whole North African region known today as the Sahara Desert. The Sahel has continuous dry and wet spells. As recently as 2010 the Sahel again suffered a serious drought.

Scientists talk about an “abrupt” or “sudden” climate change around 4000 to 4200 years ago but, how sudden is “sudden”? In geological or paleo-climatic terms even a period of 300 to 500 years can be regarded as “sudden”. What I am talking about is an “instantaneous” event (for want of a better word) and something which would not exceed, say, one to three years.

Let us look at the facts:
1. Most of North Africa lies at elevations of less than 200 meters a.m.s.l. This would mean that Mega-Tsunamis could have inundated vast tracts of land.
2. Ice cores from Kilimanjaro show a 300 year drought, but what triggered this drought?
3. The Albedo index in North Africa seems to have increased from anywhere between 15% and 18% to above 30% some 4000 years ago. How sudden or gradual did this take place? Extensive grassland fires lighted by Tunguska-type explosions or exploding asteroids followed by massive floods or tsunamis would push up the reflection coefficient immediately.
4. The mega-lakes in North Africa disappeared since ca 4200 or 4000 years ago. Obviously this did not take place overnight (Lake Mega-Fezzan was the biggest lake in the world and Lake Chad is still shrinking to this day). From the sediment cores drilled here one could possibly not expect to find an “instantaneous” event unless one is specifically looking for such. Even if such an event (massive floods or tsunamis) did take place, the chances are that the turbulence created by the sudden inrushes of water or wave action would not have left clearly distinguishable markers in the sediment cores.
5. Now consider the following four web-sites:


http://www.scienceda...90712080500.htm
Sahara's Abrupt Desertification Started By Changes In Earth's Orbit, Accelerated By Atmospheric And Vegetation Feedbacks
ScienceDaily (July 12, 1999) — WASHINGTON –

“One of the most striking climate changes of the past 11,000 years caused the abrupt desertification of the Saharan and Arabia regions midway through that period.”

“The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.
The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.”

But what caused the changes in the earth’s orbit and the tilt of the earth’s axis?

http://www.scientifi...n-sahara-desert
From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry
How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts
By Adam Hadhazy   May 9, 2008 | 5

“The data also confirms that a drop in rainfall was the major reason the area turned into a dusty badland. Based on the sediment samples, the researchers determined that Yoa's waters (in north-eastern Chad) suddenly grew quite salty about 4,000 years ago. They speculate the salinity spiked because the streams that had previously drained salt out of the lake vanished as rainfall lessened. This abrupt event shows how a relatively small occurrence—such as a slight slide in rainfall—may have a tremendous impact.”


http://news.bbc.co.u...ture/390097.stm
“Using a new computer simulation of the Earth's climate, German scientists say that the Sahara underwent a brutal climate change about 4,000 years ago.”
“Over a very short time scale - possibly as short as 300 years - it went from grasslands with low shrubs to the desert we are familiar with today. Summer temperatures increased rapidly and rainfall almost ceased. The change devastated many ancient cultures and caused those that did survive to migrate elsewhere.”

From Wikipedia:
“The Neolithic Subpluvial — sometimes called the Holocene Wet Phase — was an extended period (from about 7500-7000 BC to about 3500-3000 BC) of wet and rainy conditions in the climate history of northern Africa. It was both preceded and followed by much drier periods.”
“The Neolithic Subpluvial began during the 7th millennium BC and was strong for about 2000 years; it waned over time and ended in the 4th millennium BC.”

Please note lake Yoa’s “sudden” increase in salinity “about” 4000 years ago. Again, massive sea floods, although “instantaneously”, would take time to evaporate and leave a discernable salt layer. So again my question: “was it gradual or instantaneous?”
Also remember professor Weiss’ observation of the sudden increase of salinity and the layer of silt in Akkad dated to 2193 BC.
I would like to suggest that Yoa’s “about 4000 years ago” and Akkad’s “2193 BC” both refer to the same event.
Professor Weiss also commented on the sudden migrations of people all over the Middle East.

While scientists are still grabbling with the timeframes of the desertification of North Africa, we must then take notice of the eyewitness accounts of the ancient scribes. When you read their accounts, there is no doubt that they described a very sudden or almost “instantaneous” event.
Please read again the Ipuwer Papyrus, Gilgamesh’s Epic and the “Curse of Akkad”

Ipuwer:
1. Floods
• “Behold, Egypt is fallen to pouring of water, and he who poured water on the ground has carried off the strong man in misery.”  (Note: Swept away by a flood.)
• “When men send a servant for humble folk, he goes on the road until he sees the flood; the road is washed out and he stands worried.”
• “Indeed many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a grave (tomb) and the place of embalmment has become a stream.” (Note: People drowned. They would not have buried people intentionally in their only source of drinking water.)
• “ […] his children who are witnesses of the surging of the flood.”
• “Indeed, the desert is throughout the land, the nomes (districts) are laid waste.” (Note: Submersion and / or denudation from floods?)
• “... those who were on their husbands’ beds, let them lie on rafts.”
• “Behold, noble ladies are now on rafts...”
(note “rafts” and not “boats” – this would indicate improvising in a sudden crisis)
2. Contaminated water
• “Indeed the Nile overflows, yet non plough for it.”  (Note: Not a drought)
• “Indeed the river is blood yet men drink of it”. (Note: Muddy, salty and decaying bodies of dead people?)
• “Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water.” (Note: Bodies decaying in water sources)
3. Earthquakes
• “Indeed, the land turns around as does a potter’s wheel,”
• “towns are destroyed and Upper Egypt has become an empty waste.” (Note: could also refer to floods and the resultant denudation of arable lands)
• “Indeed, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid out on the high ground, and the secrets of the embalmers are thrown down because of it”. (Note: Tombs destroyed by earthquakes. It seems unlikely that tomb robbers, as some would have it, would have removed dead bodies from their graves just to dump them outside.)
• “Behold, the secret of the land whose limits were unknown is divulged, and the Residence is thrown down in a moment”.
(The French archaeologist, Claude FA Schaeffer, concluded as far back as 1948 that earthquakes throughout Mesopotamia caused the initial collapse)

4. Fire
• “Indeed, doors, columns and walls are burnt up.”
• “Behold, the fire has gone up on high, and its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.”
(Meteorite activities and Tunguska-type explosions causing widespread fires?)

5. Multiple Deaths
• “…and there is no man of yesterday.”
• “Indeed, men are few, and he who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.” (Note: Burying people in the ground – not in the river)

6. Disease and Pestilence
• “Indeed, hearts are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy cloth speaks even before one come near it.”

Throughout Ipuwer’s lamentations he recorded how hordes of refugees streamed into Egypt and ravaged and pillaged the country. He described scenes of social disorder and anarchy where the rulers and upper classes were deposed of by the working classes and wandering bandits.

The Prophecy of Neferti
“See, there are great men in the governance of the land, yet what has been  done is as though it had never been done.”

“Re must begin by refounding (rebuilding) the land which is utterly ruined, and nothing remains.”, and
“This land is destroyed and there are none who care for it; there are none who speak and there are none who act.”

“The sun is veiled, and will not shine when the people would see; none will live when the sun is veiled by a cloud, and everyone is dulled by the lack of it.”
“…the south wind will oppose the north wind, and the sky will not be with one single wind.”
“Re separates himself from men; he shines, that the hour may be told, but no one knows when noon occurs, for no one can discern his shadow, no one is dazzled when he is seen; there are non whose eyes stream with water, for he is like the moon in the sky, though his accustomed time do not go astray, and his rays are in men’s sight as on former occasions.”

4 Neferti described the Nile without water which sounds like a severe drought:

The river of Egypt is dry and men cross the water on foot;”
He continued, however: “…men will seek water for ships in order to navigate it, for their course has become the riverbank, and the bank serves for water; the place of water has become a riverbank…

This could rather be interpreted as the river having changed its course because of either a flood induced silting up or an earthquake.

The Curse of Akkad
“For the first time since cities were built and founded, the large fields produced no grain.
The flooded fields produced no fish.
The watered gardens produced no honey and wine,
The heavy clouds did not rain.”

The “curse” also mentions “flaming potsherds raining from the sky”

From Wikipedia:
“For many years, the events described in "The Curse of Akkad" were thought, like the details of Sargon's birth, to be purely fictional. But now the evidence of Tell Leilan, and recent findings of elevated dust deposits in sea-cores collected off Oman, that date to the period of Akkad's collapse suggest that climate change may have played a role.”

My observation
:
From Harvey Weiss’ work at Tell Leilan re the increased salt content of the ground and the layer of silt, it is obvious that it was much more than just climate change.
Even at Ur a massive silt layer was discovered. (ca. 1920 AD)

The Oera Linda Book
“How the bad times came.
1. During the whole summer the sun had been hidden behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness.
2. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. The Old Land (Altland), called Atland by the navigators, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.
3. It was also in Finda's land (The East) that the earth vomited fire, and in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.”

Here we have all the elements of the Egyptian and Akkadian disasters as described before in one picture – the cloud cover, the lack of wind to the fire, earthquakes, floods and death which lasted for three years, followed by refugees and anarchy.

My question again: “Where did “the 19th century” authors of the OLB get this information from?

Also see http://personal.eune...mari2.htm#akkad

Edited by Alewyn, 06 May 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, maybe you are looking too far back in history for proof of the OLB.

It was mentioned in this thread before (I think..), but it having grown to gigantic proportions it will take hours to find the posts again.

So here it is:

First something about the OLB from a site in English, written by a Dutch guy:

Liudgaard, A citadel that gave rise to many names beginning with "Liud". It was located at the mouth of the Rhine and was inundated by the sea in 305 BC.

http://www.earth-his...ra-glossary.htm



Then this:

Ancient tsunami 'hit New York'

"It may have been a large storm, but evidence is increasingly pointing to a rare Atlantic Ocean tsunami.

Steven Goodbred, an Earth scientist at Vanderbilt University, said large gravel, marine fossils and other unusual deposits found in sediment cores across the area date to 2,300 years ago."

http://thisbluemarbl...ead.php?t=13366
http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/8028949.stm


Now, if they do find a thick layer of sediment plus large amounts of sea shells on the coast of the Netherlands, ating from around 300 BC, then you would have proof of a tsunami on exactly the right time in OLB history.

About the pdf you posted earlier: I didn't read anything of large amounts of sea shells/marine fossils at 2200 BC, so the area got flooded over time, but gradually and not catastrphically like during a tsunami.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 May 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[Alewyn]

Abramelin, on 06 May 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

Alewyn, maybe you are looking too far back in history for proof of the OLB.

It was mentioned in this thread before (I think..), but it having grown to gigantic proportions it will take hours to find the posts again.

So here it is:

First something about the OLB from a site in English, written by a Dutch guy:

Liudgaard, A citadel that gave rise to many names beginning with "Liud". It was located at the mouth of the Rhine and was inundated by the sea in 305 BC.

http://www.earth-his...ra-glossary.htm



Then this:

Ancient tsunami 'hit New York'

"It may have been a large storm, but evidence is increasingly pointing to a rare Atlantic Ocean tsunami.

Steven Goodbred, an Earth scientist at Vanderbilt University, said large gravel, marine fossils and other unusual deposits found in sediment cores across the area date to 2,300 years ago."

http://thisbluemarbl...ead.php?t=13366
http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/8028949.stm


Now, if they do find a thick layer of sediment plus large amounts of sea shells on the coast of the Netherlands, ating from around 300 BC, then you would have proof of a tsunami on exactly the right time in OLB history.

About the pdf you posted earlier: I didn't read anything of large amounts of sea shells/marine fossils at 2200 BC, so the area got flooded over time, but gradually and not catastrphically like during a tsunami.

.

Abe,
I mentioned the 305 BC flood of the OLB and the ca 300 BC New York Tsunami in my book (and on this site). You must bear in mind that the evidence of the New York Tsunami was not out in the open. They had to drill to find it. Perhaps if they looked for evidence in drill cores from the North Sea, they may or may not find the same evidence. It all depends on the composition, slope and depth in the area under scrutiny. The North Sea is protected from the Atlantic and does not have a continental shelve as you would find along the edges of the Atlantic. A tsunami in the North Sea may in all probability just churn up mud and sand like the rest of the sea floor and therefore not identifyable. I would suggest that you may have a better chance of getting such evidence off the Norwegian coast.

As for the 2200 BC event and the drying out of the Sahara, I placed this information to show the relevance to both the Oera Linda Book and Egyptian history and, in fact, world history at large.

The pyramids in Egypt was built before 2200 BC and, as I have shown, not in the desert but in grassland savanahs. Egyptologists will realy have to rethink the history and cause of the demise of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. The history of old Egypt, like all fields of study, is not cast in concrete and one must always keep an open mind - especially when new evidence is found.

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 06 May 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Abe,
I mentioned the 305 BC flood of the OLB and the ca 300 BC New York Tsunami in my book (and on this site). You must bear in mind that the evidence of the New York Tsunami was not out in the open. They had to drill to find it. Perhaps if they looked for evidence in drill cores from the North Sea, they may or may not find the same evidence. It all depends on the composition, slope and depth in the area under scrutiny. The North Sea is protected from the Atlantic and does not have a continental shelve as you would find along the edges of the Atlantic. A tsunami in the North Sea may in all probability just churn up mud and sand like the rest of the sea floor and therefore not identifyable. I would suggest that you may have a better chance of getting such evidence off the Norwegian coast.

As for the 2200 BC event and the drying out of the Sahara, I placed this information to show the relevance to both the Oera Linda Book and Egyptian history and, in fact, world history at large.

The pyramids in Egypt was built before 2200 BC and, as I have shown, not in the desert but in grassland savanahs. Egyptologists will realy have to rethink the history and cause of the demise of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. The history of old Egypt, like all fields of study, is not cast in concrete and one must always keep an open mind - especially when new evidence is found.

Yes, it was you who mentioned it, but I wasn't that sure if we discussed it here too; we have discussed about so many things, I start dreaming about tall dominant blond Frisian women, lol !!.

But serious now: this flood - if it happened here around 300 BC - is maybe hidden in some core samples and in some Dutch pdf/document. I assume you already tried to find something like that because you are able to read Dutch too, but I will try it myself now and hope to be lucky.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 May 2011 - 02:22 PM.

[The Puzzler]

I hope you caught the info and also the pdf link Alewyn because I though the information could be really helpful.

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 May 2011 - 03:01 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Sweden has caves that have been caused by land elevations due to tectonic plate shifting or earthquakes.

Sweden has a number of caves that are classified as neotectonic caves. Earthquakes or other shifts of the tectonic plates (particularly those that cause land elevations) formed these caves sometime within the last eight thousand to ten thousand years, which means they are relatively new land formations. Examples of these types of caves in Sweden are Torkulla Kyrka, Gillberga Gryt, and Bodagrottorna.
http://www.nationsen...l#ixzz1LaRlmA00

So there must have been severe land elevations in Sweden at some time in the past to create these caves. Probably when the ice melted but the area is obviously very unstable.

[Alewyn]

The Puzzler, on 06 May 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

I hope you caught the info and also the pdf link Alewyn because I though the information could be really helpful.

Sorry Puzzler,
I am having some Alzheimers Lite (a local beer).
What info and pdf link are you refering to?

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 06 May 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

Yes, it was you who mentioned it, but I wasn't that sure if we discussed it here too; we have discussed about so many things, I start dreaming about tall dominant blond Frisian women, lol !!.

But serious now: this flood - if it happened here around 300 BC - is maybe hidden in some core samples and in some Dutch pdf/document. I assume you already tried to find something like that because you are able to read Dutch too, but I will try it myself now and hope to be lucky.
.

As I already thought, the 300 BC 'flood' or how should we call it (gradually flooding of land), were one of those Dunkirk Transgressions.

But I think it is possible that what they found was mistakenly interpreted as one of those many transgressions...

Anyway, here is some copied text:


In the early
Atlanticum the sea advanced to the current
chain of islands and gradually flooded the mainland,
which was able to stand its ground as the
island Bant - probably the ancient „Burcana“ -
up to early modern times. South of the island
Juist, on the geest between Nordland to the
north, Koper Sand to the south and Itzendorfer
Plate to the east, the growth of the moor was
first interrupted by the Dunkirk I Transgression in
300 B.C. with widespread flooding and still or
flow-through water. The same occurred in the
low-lying (up to 2.5 meters below sea level)
areas of the East Frisian geest substrate in
Norderland. Prehistoric settlement would have
been possible up to this period, demonstrated by
scattered stone instruments both from the
Neolithic as well as the Late to Middle Bronze
Age. That sites from the Iron Age and Roman
Empire have not yet been found on the higherlying
sandy area near the city of Norden can for
now be attributed to a lack of research, because
sites dating to the Roman Empire have been
found further east at the geest edge

0=0


It is not certain whether
the varied landscape was partially settled in the
5th, 4th or 3rd millennium B.C. - for which there
appears to be evidence in the form of separate
finds from around the Ems embankment - or
whether any attempts at settlement took place
during the dry land phase in the later Bronze
Age. The natural space was completely altered
from 300 B.C. at the latest as calcareous sediments
were deposited on the mud flats by the
Dunkirk I Transgression, the coast line shifted
south, the Ems became wider, the intertidal difference
increased and the Campener and
Sielmönkener Buchten were formed.

0=0

Shortly
after the Hatzum settlement was abandoned in
about 300 B.C. new settlements were established
on the embankments. What became of the
inhabitants from the 4th and 3rd centuries B.C.
is still unclear, especially because, down to the
upper layers of the Iron Age settlements, the
strata were destroyed by the extensive digging
up of clay for brick-making in the Rheiderland
area, with the result that continuity with the
layers from the Roman times cannot be established

http://www.waddensea...hap4.4_LS-2.pdf

( Calcareous sediments are usually deposited in shallow water near land, since the carbonate is precipitated by marine organisms that need land-derived nutrients. Generally speaking, the farther from land sediments fall, the less calcareous they are. Some areas can have interbedded calcareous sediments due to storms, or changes in ocean currents. http://en.wikipedia....arine_sediments )

( location of Hatzum: http://www.lancewadp...derland_map.htm )


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 May 2011 - 05:13 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 05 May 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

Searching through this thread, I read I asked Alewyn a while ago, "Why do you think that Middelzee in Friesland was so important??"

This was of course in connection to the Middelzee/Middel-se being the western border of the Fryan Empire (OLB), or as the OLB says, "bordered in the direction of the evening by the Middel-se.". For many that 'Middel-se' was nothing else but the Mediterranean. *I* say that this Middel-Se in THAT part of the OLB is nothing but the Frisian Middel-Se/MiddelZee ("sea in the Middle").


The Battle of the Boarn (West Frisian: Slach oan de Boarn Dutch: Slag aan de Boorne) was an eighth century battle between the Franks and the Frisians near the mouth of the river Boarn in what is now the Dutch province of Friesland.

In 734 a Frankish army commanded by Majordomo Charles Martel invaded Friesland in a campaign that was part of a series of ongoing wars and skirmishes between the Franks and the Frisians. Marching along the river Boarn the Frankish army reached the mouth of the river where it used to flow into the Bordine estuary or Middelsee. This estuary has since silted up and been claimed for agriculture during the 10th to 14th century.

The Frisians commanded by King Poppo used boats to land their army and surprise the Franks. However, the Frisian army was beaten and Poppo killed.[1] The Franks gained control of the Frisian lands west of the Lauwers estuary and the Frisians became vassals of the Franks apart from the tribes living in East Frisia in present day Germany.

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_the_Boarn


And here it says: "Tot aan de Middelzee was Friesland onder Frankische controle" or in English: "Up to the Middelzee Friesland was under Frankish control", ~~LINK~~


Some hypothetical maps of the area:




.

The name 'Middelzee' only came into use around 1500. Before that the names Boorne, Bordine or Bordena, meaning border, were used as far back as the 8th century for the Middelzee.

http://www.lancewadp...e/middelzee.htm


OK, lol: this could mean that IF the OLB is true, then 'my' Frisian Middelzee drops from the equation.

Or... that it might prove the OLb was written after 1500 AD.

[Abramelin]

And now for something different...

Those who have followed this thread from the start, and/or those who have read Alewyn's book, will know of his theory about the mythical "Friesland Island" (one of the mythical islands in the narrative by the Zeno Brothers) maybe being the OLB Aldland/Atland.

He had developed a theory how this could have been a real island that (partly) submerged, and that what was left of it is what we now call the Faroer Islands.

Well, we have discussed sealevel rise, and he had a theory about the plate tectonics of the Mid Atlantian Ridge.

But today I found something that could help Alewyn a bit.... and give people believing in anything 'Atlantis' a rapid heart beat, lol.


Those who are lucky to be able to read Dutch, start here:

http://www.archeolog....asp?grens=4516
http://www.visionair...lijk-verzinken/


Those who can't will have to do with the original scientific theory in English:

Hot spots such as the Iceland plume can cause ripples hundreds of metres high to spread across the Earth's surface, according to the latest research at the University of Cambridge. The 'hot blob' hypothesis may lay to rest one of geology’s oldest mysteries – why rapid sea level changes take place when there are no waxing and waning polar ice sheets.

http://www.geolsoc.o...s/page8285.html



An explanation for high-frequency cycles of sea level in non-glacial times has remained elusive, despite more than two centuries of research since Lavoisier's seminal observations were published in 1789. In the development of seismic stratigraphy in the 1970s, putatively global high-frequency changes in relative sea level (Vail third-order cycles) were attributed to an unknown eustatic mechanism, prompting a search for Mesozoic ice ages. Over the last decade, a regional mechanism of sea-level control has been developed from studies of the sedimentary record in high-quality oil-industry data. These geological studies have supported the geophysical prediction that significant regional control of sea level is exercised by mantle-induced vertical motions of the Earth's surface. These vertical motions can occur over time intervals from several tens of million years to less than a million years, with amplitudes of tens of metres or more even at the shorter intervals. The vertical motions are not confined to regions with major hotspots. There are two related controls of surface vertical motion: evolution of mantle-convection cells, and pulsing flow within each cell. The effects are evident in the sedimentary record of North Atlantic basins. Mantle convection provides an alternative, regional, mechanism to eustatic control for explaining medium-frequency to high-frequency sea-level cycles.

http://publications....c.uk:8080/1904/


Although scientists were confident that hot blobs exist in the mantle, evidence for the ripples at the Earth's surface have been hard to spot. While the Scotland uplift is the only example of the hot blob effect, Lovell said the movement is a natural effect of mantle convection, so there's no reason to think it isn't happening all the time, even now.

"I'm delighted that we have what appears to be a decent geophysical explanation for such a longstanding and significant geological problem," Lovell said. "I hope we'll be able to collect more observations from the geological record that will explain otherwise cryptic features of the Earth's mantle."

http://www.livescien...th-surface.html

http://covertress.bl...atsky-rise.html


Btw, the research that resulted in this theory was performed between Scotland and the Faroer (that's what the Dutch sites tell us.

And here an animation of what it's all about (and it's about how fast land can rise and sink again, and how):
http://www.newscient...0-ups-and-downs


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Edited by Abramelin, 06 May 2011 - 05:36 PM.

[Abramelin]

This site - I quoted from it in a former post afew minutes ago (about the Middelzee) - is excellent for geological and (pre-)historical info about the Frisian area:

Just click on the names in the map (see link, not the pic I posted, that doesn't work), and the a page with info shows up:
http://www.lancewadp...tural atlas.htm



Some titbits from that same site:

Modern Butjadingen belonged in medieval times to the Frisian province of Rüstringen, which lost its territorial completeness during disastrous floods. Because of the formation of the Jadebusen, the western area of Rüstringen was separated from the eastern area, which were renamed Bovenjadingen and Butenjadingen. In the Lower German language Bovenjadingen means “on this side of the Jade” and Butenjadingen “outside of the Jade”. Butjadingen had become an island because of the Heete-Durchbruch (Heete cut). At the beginning of the 16th century the lost area was impoldered again, so Butjadingen was connected with Stadland, and once again became part of the mainland.

During this period Butjadingen suffered from many of the great floods. Numerous places and villages were destroyed by the water (Tedlens, Langemehne, Bär, Alt-Waddens, Aldessen or Oldersum). In 1687 Butjadingen belonged to the Danish government who allowed the dikes and their maintenance to become neglected. One of the most disastrous flood-tides came in 1717 around Christmas. Almost one third of the population died and the region suffered for a long period from the negative effects on the economy.

http://www.lancewadp...butjadingen.htm


The highest point of Texel outside the dunes area is the Hooge Berg near Den Burg (15 m), the centre of the glacial till deposit. The Hooge Berg has always attracted human interest, partly because of its proximity to the sea, and scattered archaeological finds are evidence of human activity in the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic periods. The site may have been permanently occupied since the Middle Bronze Age, and for a long period the main form of subsistence was agriculture and fishing. Den Burg is thought to be Viking in origin, with the central circular ring thought to date to this period. The outer ring is a bulwark dating from the 14th century.

http://www.lancewadp...Texel/texel.htm


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Edited by Abramelin, 06 May 2011 - 06:00 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Alewyn, on 06 May 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

Sorry Puzzler,
I am having some Alzheimers Lite (a local beer).
What info and pdf link are you refering to?

http://issuu.com/ala...aster_mythology

and info by ancient writers in my Post #4695

The mention of the Med. in the OLB and the effects of the 2200BC event is found in the Titanomachy.

[The Puzzler]

The name Texel is Frisian, but because of historical sound-changes in Dutch, where all -x- sounds have been replaced with -s- sounds (compare for instance English Fox, Frisian Fokse, German Fuchs with Dutch Vos), the name is typically pronounced Tessel in Dutch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texel

Teksel - it's not that in the OLB so the new Frisian word appears to be Germanised while the English have the same original letter sound as the Frisians should - that would be Texel.

The Frisian language then appears to have been Germanised at some point, while the English kept the older sounds the Frisians should still speak but they 'speak fancy now'.

English is very unfancy language, the fancy words have come in from fancy languages.

X marks the spot.

[The Puzzler]

I reckon 'reckon' is an English Fryan word too and it's used in the OLB as the word reckoning. I use it as much as stuff nearly - where do ya reckon your stuff is? What do ya reckon? means of course, what do you think the answer would be, because reckoning is all about working out the answer and thinking. Where do you 'reckon' your stuff is - Where do you think you left your things? would be a fancy way to say it.

I reckon this... That English is the language all true Fryans should all be speaking.    The inability to communicate makes us as a group, weak. That's why God muddled the speech didn't he? Too much power otherwise.

I'm glad you can speak it or we wouldn't be here.

English is also the basis of the OLB and the language of Frisians. The X in English is an original letter sound that I think we spoke always and that the Frisians once said and wrote X but it was contaminated by the movement of Eastern groups to Western Europe, Dutch got caught up in that, hence they say FrIa not FrYa. Frisians should all say FRYA. Not Fria.

Dutch is a 'fancy' language, it's not like English at all - like a Vos..? a Fox, can you see the change - all F sounds in Fryan are V in Dutch and Ph in Greek, all X sounds are chs or such derivations of X, X imo is the original, it's one simple letter wth a myriad of meanings, can't write..? just sign with an X. Like kiss which we put a X for, the sound of the word kiss is exactly the sound of X - ks or chs.

I believe these people were in England prior to and after the sinking of Doggerland. They built the megaliths and are also the strong large men of all of Europe. The language was taken into the area of the Caucasus imo at the time of the sinking of Doggerland when many of the people fled south. IE can be traced out of their but I believe now it first went in at the sinking of Doggerland, maybe around 6,000BC, with the people.

Texel is part of this ice glacial build up, the only island in that chain to be so, that is why it has Paleolithic and Mesolithic human habitation remnants. These people would have been proto-Fryans (for want of a better word) living there.

That's what I think, the feeling of anti-Catholicism and pull away from the Rome led Papal Church was an older than old move, England never was associated with these Eastern led religious manipulations that Rome took on.

Christianity is a medium ground, it tends to reflect in fact Frya because also the OLB says this too - the mention of Christianity in Egypt being associated with Serapis tends to make one think it's a Persian type religion, through Zoroastrianism.

The Magi are said to be Zoroastrian priests so if I backtrack my thought that was offensive to Alewyn and agree that the Magi who introduced Jesus arrival were nice ones, who had kept the ways of the true Jessos and Frya it can reconcile why Europeans 'embraced' Christianity rather than the force of Catholicism and why many Slavic people and others are very Orthodox Catholic types. It's the marriage part. Christians don't go through such full on ritual things in marriage as Catholics with all their associated palava.

The OLB message is this, the English and all true Fryan background people, that includes Frisians and Dutch, who because they were on the continent couldn't escape this influx of eastern ways, should lead this revolution against false Gods and religions and lead the way to the path of light, that of Frya and Jesus, without the need of the Church or the priests or any of their lies.  

Should I be so bold to suggest this idea was behind Hitler's regime and I know he read such books as The Passing of a Great Race by Madison Grant which I happen to agree with a lot of, if you can distance yourself from the new terms 'rascist' and 'politically correct', you might find it actually makes alot of sense. Hitler just went about it in a most agressive, unacceptable way that I would never condone. What I'm saying is his ideas were actually imprinted by ideals such as the OLB, that everyone else was a hinderance to the view that the Fryan, Nordic, was the original and only corrupted by interference from others and should have been running the show because they were most adept at this and everyone else had corrupted them so they should be eliminated. Jews did the most damage to this. The Eugenics programs Hitler instituted were no more than attempts to reproduce the BEST MEN of Nordic race. Not some 'supermen', just the 'best men'.

Getting off this, this I guess, is the main reason I choose to belive the message in the OLB, to me it WAS the light I'd been looking for all my life, one I had rejected in all other forms, I am English, no Med, no Asian, no nothing and I do not believe in the Christian God that was fed to me in the Bible, have not married due to it's tradition and have always felt our culture was taken by others, I am vehemently patriotic to my country and my heritage and dislike any threat to it or to my children's future and I don't care whether that makes me 'racist' or unpolitally correct, Aryan or whatever anyone these days wants to term it. I've nothing to hide and really am over trying to be all namby pamby (pandering) to these people. I have started topics on the influence of Europeans starting Greek history previously like Celts in Greece. I know this is true, the myths verify it and so does my gut and my heart. I have deep respect for the French government taking a stand lately on these sorts of issues, good on them, they can see in the crystal ball. I'm sick of watching the news to see these asylum seekers setting fire to our detention centres because their own countries are in disarray and bringing thier behaviour here, I'll try and see if I can link you to 60 Minutes tomorrow night, you can meet one of our Muslim Clerics, he loves bin Laden, he hates us all including the reporter and our government and thinks we should all be, well, not Christian. Unbelievable this guy is still walking our streets.

So, I'm pretty much over this thread, it's taken up way too much of my life over the last year but I found my answers and found what I'd been looking for my whole life. I don't blame them for claiming this is a hoax at all. It challenges the status quo too much but if you have the foresight and insight the OLB hopes you have, maybe you'll eventually see this book tells a true story.  

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 May 2011 - 09:22 AM.