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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#4741    Otharus

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 08:33 AM

Thank you for the answers, Menno.
Here's my comments to them.

View PostKnul, on 09 May 2011 - 03:40 AM, said:

1. The information, that the manuscript of the Oera Linda Boek and Worp van Thabor have been stolen by Cornelis over de Linden comes from an article in the Enkhuizer Courant of January, 9th 1934. In a letter to the editor Hajo Last (died 1934 in Bussum, age 83) writes that he was a colleague of Hein Kofman (grandson of Aafje over de Linden, aunt of Cornelis over de Linden. He writes that 'Nephew Over de Linden has stolen them from my mother'. Source: Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden, pag. 11. This might be gossip.

It might be gossip, but it might also be true.
If it's true, it's of extreme relevance.
Remarkable that Jensma did not mention this in his book.
I hope you will add more from this source to your website.

Quote

2. Joast Halbertsma specialized in the origin of the Frisian language and law. The main source for both of them was the Riustringian dialect, he was very familiar with. See literature. A particular aspect of the Riustringian dialect was the availability yet of negative verbs (nildon - they did not want), which are found frequently in the Oera Linda Boek. Negative verbs disappeared in the younger stages of Old Frisian.

"Nildon", which can either be called a negative verb or just a contraction of "ne wildon", is not exclusively Rustringian.

Old Westfrisian Laws (#55 or LV):

IEF HI NELLE,
Als hij niet wil,
If he (the magistrate) will not (do so),

SO NE ACH HIM NIMMA IOWA LADA NER BOTA,
zo acht hem niemand laden noch boeten te geven,
no man need tender him oaths or compensation,

NER NIMMA SINE BAN THELDA.
noch niemand zijne ban dulden.
nor obey his orders.

Quote

3. Foddik. (...) The word must come from the Jordaan dialect of Amsterdam, which has been investigated by Joast Halbertsma and Johan Winkler. (...)

Why must "foddik" come from the Jordaan dialect of Amsterdam?
Because that dialect was studied by Halbertsma?
In that case, there is a similar mistake going on as with Rustringian.

I suspect that your reasoning is like this:

1. Halbertsma wrote the OLB.
2. He studied Rustringian and the Jordaan dialect.
3. The unknown word "foddik" must come from the Jordaan dialect.


It's interesting to know if "foddik" was part of the Jordaan dialect, but whether or not this is true, it does not add to the proof that Halbertsma did it.

In theory it's possible that the OLB was inspired by various languages and dialects, but it's equally possible (and in my opinion more likely) that those languages and dialects have similarities with the OLB language because the latter is indeed ancient, and they stem from it.

Quote

4. About the very old bookstore of the family Over de Linden in Enkhuizen, please read the information below (in Dutch). Aunt Aafje Over de Linden, who gave the manuscripts to Cornelis over de Linden, was married to Pieter Bais, who joined the family as a bookseller in Enkhuizen. (...)

First, a correction:
You have confused two people with the same name:
Cornelis' aunt, Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) was married 1. to Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845), 2. to Koop Meijlof (ca.1804-ca.1875)
The other Aafje (a.k.a. Antje) Over de Linden (1854-1924) was married to book printer and publisher Pieter Bais (1850-1926). This Aafje's father was a cousin to the second degree of Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874).

For a more complete and more accurate Over de Linden genealogy, see:
http://fryskednis.bl...-genealogy.html

Second, and most importantly, you seem to have assumed that the manuscript was in the possession of any Over de Linden bookshop, as it does not say so in your quotes.

Conclusion: This is not an established fact.


#4742    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 10:32 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 May 2011 - 04:38 AM, said:

Inkishush ca. 2135–2129 BC First Gutian ruler on the Sumerian king list

Inkishush or Inkicuc (proto-ON 'Ingvi's-son'?) was a Gutian ruler in Sumer from ca. 2135 BC to 2129 BC. Inkishush is the first Gutian ruler mentioned in the Sumerian King List.

Ingvi...

Inkishush sounds rather like Inka too.

Here's another King on the list...Ibranum ca. 2074–2073 BC

I wonder what Ibranum did?

The last King was Tirigan - he reigned 40 days and that would be 40 nights too I gather - the chaos of the Gutians was stopped by the Sumerians once again.

I thought, "Havent't we talked about this before?" And we did, lol:

(post 1567, page 105)
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=1560

And that Wiki page about "Inkishush" is the only one that tries to explain the name as maybe being proto Old Norse.

I mean, is "sush" proto-ON for son??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 May 2011 - 10:33 AM.


#4743    Otharus

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:05 PM

So, can anyone summarize a credible hoax theory by now?

Edited by Otharus, 09 May 2011 - 02:58 PM.


#4744    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:23 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 May 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

I thought, "Havent't we talked about this before?" And we did, lol:

(post 1567, page 105)
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=1560

And that Wiki page about "Inkishush" is the only one that tries to explain the name as maybe being proto Old Norse.

I mean, is "sush" proto-ON for son??

.
I rechecked what you wrote in reply and I beg to differ on them being like Fryans, barbarians because they didn't follow the rules of Marduk and all giants were barbarians accordingly. They didn't know the system but had Kings and were powerful enough to overthrow Sumer at the time.

Note they were known later as Western MEDIANS - Iranian populations.

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".
http://en.wikipedia....i/Gutian_people

Gorbyras, one was Cyrus the Great's general and one was Darius' helper. We know also that Persian was an offshoot of the Medians most likely and that the Achaemenid line rejected the too powerful Magi, which went on to try and overthrow Persia as well as finally coming into their own with the Chaldean empire.

What the Gutians were was NOT Semitic nor Middle eastern. They took on the language of the Akkadians.

I'll give you Tirigan first.

Wiki used to have Tirigan as TYR's BATTLE. I note that's gone but I caught it.

Tyr's Battle reigned for 40 days (and 40 nights).

I think you're missing it.

igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang.

I say Tirigan actually means Tyr's companions of oath (gang) - Tyr's Gang - but also to obey this gang, like a tie to a gang, almost like a colour or badge gangs wear to swear an oath to that gang. Your gang is your companions of an oath.

Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic varęgŭ are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e. "a sworn person" or "a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him, or protégé
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Varangians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

Do you watch Star Trek? the Farengi. It's really the same word as Varangian.  B)

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#4745    SlimJim22

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:29 PM

It is an interesting theory to suppose that the Guti, Getae, Goths, Juts, Jats and more were all names for the same people who went on to become Kurds as well as assimilated into other cultures. I found a fairly extensive site, not sure of its credibility but they case is that rufism (red hair) is the main identifying mark genetically. Don't expect you to agree but check it out.

Quote

Historic Kurdistan as ancient Gutium. Describing the Descent of modern Kurds from legendary Gutians of Yore. Relation of the Jats with the Gutians & Goths. Disclosing the Gutians to be a branch of the Getae, Goths or Jats of Punjab, and hence of Scythian or East Iranic race. Their relationship with the Tocharians or Thakurs. Red-haired Features of Gutians. Connections of the Gutians with the Goths. Relations of Gutians with the Tokharians. Sumerian Renaissance under the Heroic Gutians. Peak of Sumeria & Gutian Golden Age under Gudea. Linguistic evidence for Gutian descent of Kurds. Refutation of views of self-hating Kurds and Anti-Kurdish scholars.
World-Wide Migrations of the Gutians
According to linguistics and internal evidence of the Avesta, the Irano-Aryan language family originated high in the splendid Hind Kush or "Indian Kushana" mountains of Afghanistan. Historical data indicates that one of these Proto-Iranic-speaking tribes was denominated 'Gut' or 'Got'. This ancient Iranic root denominated "warrior", as the erudite Waddell notes, "the affixed title of Gut or "Goth" or 'Warrior'" (Waddell 1929, p.114) One branch of this legendary Gut or warrior tribe migrated to India, where they eventually became the renowned Jats.
Another branch migrated to Europe, where they became variously known as Goths, Gaetonnes, and Getae, inaugurating the well-known Gothic phase of architecture and giving their name to several places such as Jutland and Gotland. Yet another branch migrated to Sumeria, establishing one of the greatest empires in Sumerian history. Denominated Gutian, this branch drove back the barbaric Semitic Akkadian invaders and inaugurated the famous Neo-Sumerian renaissance. A researcher summarizes the history of the Gutians thus: "The Guti/Qutils of central and southern Kurdistan, after gradually unifying the smaller mountain principalities, became strong enough in 2250 BC to actually annex Sumeria and the rest of lowland Mesopotamia. A Guti/Qutil dynasty ruled Sumeria for 130 years until 2120 BC." (Izady 1993)

http://jatistan.blog...us-gutians.html

If there is substance to the claims then that is a pretty amazing area that the culture could have covered.

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#4746    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:36 PM

Inkishush.

Does shush mean son?

OK, well I said Sheshonq coud be Cecrops so I already explained to get sh to c so the word we might look for is CUC not shush.

Here some words I found that mean GRANDCHILD. I tried for cuc as child and found it was grandchild..

It does seem to be cuc in Indonesian and it then appears to be vnuck and assorted variations of that. The overall sound is UCK for child.

Malay: cucu   Polish: wnuk, wnuczka  Persian: نوه  Pashto: لمسى ، د زوى يا لور اولاد
Portuguese: neto  Romanian: nepoţi, nepot, nepoată  Russian: внук; внучка
Slovak: vnúča, vnuk, vnučka  Slovenian: vnuk, vnukinja  Serbian: unuk


Edit to add link:  http://www.definitio...tion/grandchild


SO, shush as cuc or vnuk can actually be grandchild. It could be relative. I'll be back.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 May 2011 - 02:37 PM.

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#4747    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 02:48 PM

Using that same example I just realised that the K in KNIFE could be equal to the vn in vnuk.

To get Ingvi from Inki as they said, the k would have to become a nv or maybe even vn, and if the vn sound in vnuk is Kuc/cuc as it transferred into Malaysian and other ones - the V can be a K.

So, Inki could maybe be Invni...

I'll try and narrow it down better.

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#4748    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:04 PM

If you had good eyes you would have seen Nepot in there too - Neptune. I'll concentrate on Inkishush for now, Inka and Neef (Nep) Teunis were brothers. The word also transfers to nephew.

At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude.

Ingvi is generally Freyr so I wouldn't be suprised if what the Gutians bought in was Apollo and Artemis.


Invni's grandchildren.

That's about the best I can get out of it for now.

Freyr's (children). Ingvi's sons.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 May 2011 - 03:05 PM.

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#4749    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:23 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 May 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

I rechecked what you wrote in reply and I beg to differ on them being like Fryans, barbarians because they didn't follow the rules of Marduk and all giants were barbarians accordingly. They didn't know the system but had Kings and were powerful enough to overthrow Sumer at the time.

Note they were known later as Western MEDIANS - Iranian populations.

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".
http://en.wikipedia....i/Gutian_people

Gorbyras, one was Cyrus the Great's general and one was Darius' helper. We know also that Persian was an offshoot of the Medians most likely and that the Achaemenid line rejected the too powerful Magi, which went on to try and overthrow Persia as well as finally coming into their own with the Chaldean empire.

What the Gutians were was NOT Semitic nor Middle eastern. They took on the language of the Akkadians.

I'll give you Tirigan first.

Wiki used to have Tirigan as TYR's BATTLE. I note that's gone but I caught it.

Tyr's Battle reigned for 40 days (and 40 nights).

I think you're missing it.

igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang.

I say Tirigan actually means Tyr's companions of oath (gang) - Tyr's Gang - but also to obey this gang, like a tie to a gang, almost like a colour or badge gangs wear to swear an oath to that gang. Your gang is your companions of an oath.

Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic varęgŭ are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e. "a sworn person" or "a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him, or protégé
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Varangians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

Do you watch Star Trek? the Farengi. It's really the same word as Varangian.  B)


I quote from the link I posted (my former post):

"According to the OLB, the Frya people entered the Mediterranean, and then invaded the Middle East and the Punjab and maybe further. They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians. OK, they were enemies, but the Gutians show now resemblence at all with these 'Frya people'.

And... the Goths from Gotland island (Sweden) travelled across the Baltic, invaded Poland, and then travelled south to the Black Sea area. Nowhwere do we read anything about that in the OLB. Did they forget?? Heh."


The OLB does mention the Geertmen and their travels, but never does it say they met a related tribe in Persian/India/Punjab.

And the reason some of the etymology of the Gutian kings disappeared is obvious: no source is mentioned, and the one creating it (or someone else editing it) must have thought it was b... wrong.

Also on the page I linked I said something about this "Inki". It's much more probable it's another way of writing "Enki", a Sumerian god.

You speak Thai? They call us all, Europeans, Farang. That's because the French did a lot of 'missionary' work their, lol.



"igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang."


You know what the Old Norse word for giant is? "Huin". We Dutch adopted it long ago, and mixed it with the Huns. That's why we now call those Dutch mesolithic structures (long-graves) "hunebedden". It's not "hun's beds", but "beds of the giants".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 May 2011 - 03:32 PM.


#4750    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:25 PM

I picked up an Eastern European Phrasebook at a garage sale yesterday, thought it might be useful.

Just checking Hungarian but the intro to it gives me the exact story on the Magyars. I'll type it out...

"The roots of this Finno-Ugric tongue and it's people lie in the lands East of the Ural mountains, from where, in 2000BC, there was a major migration west. In the process the group split, some moving north to Finland and Estonia and the others, the Ugric people, moving through to Hungary. The original language was split along with the 2 groups. In the two and half millenia from departure to the conquest of Hungary in 896, when 7 Magyar tribes occupied the Danube Basin and the foundations of modern Hungary were laid, the Ugric language evolved. It picked up certain Turkish, Bulgar and Turkish words and developed into modern Hungarian, only spoken in Hungary.

Goes on to compare Finnish and the same but now the 2 are mutually incomprehensible."

Apparently with Hungarian it is not as hard as it first looks, word formation starts with a 'root' and you build on it.

J is used as Y - the word in the OLB is Juul

They have c as ts - as in hats

cs is ch

The cheese example - Frisian ts (like the c) - Dutch k - English ch - Hungarian cs

Here's an interesting one...

ly is sometimes used instead of j.

So LYda could be jda - YDA - IDA - Mt Ida.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 May 2011 - 03:25 PM.

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#4751    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:27 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 May 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

If you had good eyes you would have seen Nepot in there too - Neptune. I'll concentrate on Inkishush for now, Inka and Neef (Nep) Teunis were brothers. The word also transfers to nephew.

At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude.

Ingvi is generally Freyr so I wouldn't be suprised if what the Gutians bought in was Apollo and Artemis.


Invni's grandchildren.

That's about the best I can get out of it for now.

Freyr's (children). Ingvi's sons.

Inka didn't go to the Mediterranean, Teunis did.

==

Of course Nep = nephew, that is what the OLB tells us, lol (but not of eachother, but of Wodan).


#4752    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:34 PM

You may think you don't need a linguist here, but the more you continue, the better you will be able to prove 1+1=3.


#4753    Knul

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:39 PM

Hello Otharus,

Sure, I mixed the two Aafjes. It must be the Aafje, who was married to Hendrik Reuvers.

In 1845 Cornelis over de Linden, Staderman and Munnik travelled to Enkhuizen to visit aunt Aafje Over de Linden (Vijzelstraat), obviously to discuss the inheritance, but it took till 1848, that aunt Aafje handed the manuscripts over to Cornelis Over de Linden. Reuvers, who opposed to the transaction, died in 1845.

However, this pre-story conflicts with elements (cattle disease, paalwoningen), which lead to a later date of the OLB. Besides there is no proof, that the OLB was among the old books and manuscripts, which seem to have been the issue of the inheritance. I suppose, that the OLB has been bought by the son of Stadermann later.

The Oera Linda Boek shows other words from the Amsterdam dialect like faliekant and boha. So I suppose foddik comes from the same dialect.

I rather use the term negative verb instead of contractions, because only a limited number of such negative verbs function as normal verbs and they are declined in the same way as the normal verbs. It is indeed not exclusively Rustringian, but much more frequent in that dialect, which is supposed to be older than the other Oldfrisian dialects.

knul


#4754    Abramelin

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:45 PM

Pseudoscientific language comparison is a form of pseudo-scholarship that has the objective of establishing historical associations between languages by naive postulations of similarities between them.

While comparative linguistics also studies the historical relationships of languages, linguistic comparisons are considered pseudoscientific by linguists when they are not based on the established practices of comparative linguistics, or on the more general principles of the scientific method. Pseudoscientific language comparison is usually performed by persons with little or no specialization in the field of comparative linguistics. It is a widespread type of linguistic pseudoscience (another example being false etymology).

The most common method applied in pseudoscientific language comparisons is to search two or more languages for words that seem similar in their sound and meaning. While similarities of this kind often seem convincing to laypersons, linguistic scientists consider this kind of comparison to be unreliable for two primary reasons. First, the method applied is not well-defined: the criterion of similarity is subjective and thus not subject to verification or falsification, which is contrary to the principles of the scientific method. Second, the large size of all languages' vocabulary makes it easy to find coincidentally similar words between languages.

Because of its unreliability, the method of searching for isolated similarities is rejected by nearly all comparative linguists (however, see mass comparison for a controversial method that operates by similarity). Instead of noting isolated similarities, comparative linguists use a technique called the comparative method to search for regular (i.e. recurring) correspondences between the languages’ phonology, grammar and core vocabulary in order to test hypotheses of relatedness.

Certain types of languages seem to attract much more attention in pseudoscientific comparisons than others. These include languages of ancient civilizations such as Egyptian, Etruscan or Sumerian; language isolates or near-isolates such as Basque, Japanese and Ainu; and languages that are unrelated to their geographical neighbors such as Hungarian.


http://en.wikipedia....uage_comparison



See also:

http://en.wikipedia..../Folk_etymology
http://en.wikipedia....False_etymology


#4755    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 03:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 May 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

I quote from the link I posted (my former post):

"According to the OLB, the Frya people entered the Mediterranean, and then invaded the Middle East and the Punjab and maybe further. They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians. OK, they were enemies, but the Gutians show now resemblence at all with these 'Frya people'.

And... the Goths from Gotland island (Sweden) travelled across the Baltic, invaded Poland, and then travelled south to the Black Sea area. Nowhwere do we read anything about that in the OLB. Did they forget?? Heh."


The OLB doesn mention the Geertmen and their travels, but never does it say they met a related tribe in Persian/India/Punjab.

And the reason some of the etymology of the Gutian kings disappeared is obvious: no source is mentioned, and the one creating it (or someone else editing it) must have thought it was b... wrong.

Also on the page I linked I said something about this "Inki". It's much more probable it's another way of writing "Enki", a Sumerian god.

You speak Thai? They call us all, Europeans, Farang. That's because the French did a lot of 'missoanary' work their, lol.



"igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang."


You know what the Old Norse word for giant is? "Huin". We Dutch adopted it long ago, and mixed it with the Huns. That's why we now call those Dutch mesolithic structures (long-graves) "hunebedden". It's not "hun's beds", but "beds of the giants".

I never said giant was an old Norse word, gang is from gengi.

These people didn't call themself giants did they...

The people who saw them named them giants - from gians - the huge gangs of men under oath for each other that were also large in size. These large men led huge gangs of men across the plains - like swarms of locusts.

Hungarian also has a t suffix as an accusative - so it wouldn't be that unusual to have gian-t

You don't know how civilized any of them were, or behaved - you read a small portion of the ones who became Frisians but there were many more Fryan people - do you think the Jutten for example, picking up amber on the shore of the Eastern Baltic were the same as the Fryans who settled in Friesland..? The ones in the East lost their values in the end really, many became Celts who followed Kalta after that - many of them were Fryans - do we expect they should have acted differently because they were originally Fryans... be all nice and civilised - too many changes and people to peg hole like that imo.

They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians.

Ones that moved away became different from ones who stayed around Friesland and Holland. A central lamp or hearth is about all I need to find connections of. Like in Latium. Apollo, Zoroastrianism, Hesta, Vesta, maidens and virgins, freedom and truth do underlie the Fryans though.

Tomorrow for me now.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 May 2011 - 04:15 PM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger