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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#6166    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:28 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 August 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

Thêra thêr in da hâge marka sâton, thêr anna Twisklanda pâlon, wrdon Saxmanna hêton, uthâwede hja immer wêpned wêron vr thaet wilde kwik aend vrwildarda Britne. Thêr to boppa hêdon wi tha nôma Landsâton, Mârsata aend Holt jefta Wodsâta.

Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Hout or Woud zaten (natives of the woods).
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

"Holt jefta Wodsâta", that means that tribe was called Holtsâta or Wodsâta.

Holstein (German pronunciation: [ˈhɔlʃtaɪn]) (Northern Low Saxon: Holsteen, Danish: Holsten, Latin and historical English: Holsatia) is the region between the rivers Elbe and Eider. It is part of Schleswig-Holstein, the northernmost state of Germany.

Holstein's name comes from the Holcetae, a Saxon tribe mentioned by Adam of Bremen as living on the north bank of the Elbe, to the west of Hamburg. The name means "dwellers in the wood" (Northern Low Saxon: Hol(t)saten; German: Holzsassen).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein

Posted Image
This "Holtsaterne" on that map is most interesting, Abe. Congratulations!

For the record, the fragment is from page 49 of the original manuscript and page 70-71 of Ottema and Sandbach.

You and Knul will argue that the supposed creators of the OLB must have known this map (or other sources that we have not identified yet), but Ottema and even Jensma did not seem to have known about it.

Jensma's Dutch translation and footnote (2006):

"Daarenboven hadden wij de namen Landzaten, Marezaten en Hout- of Woldzaten."

Footnote:
"Landzaten, Marezaten en Hout- of Woldzaten - Op te vatten als zij die in of op land, meer en bos zaten, dus land-, meer- en bosbewoners. Van deze namen verwijst 'Marezaten' naar de 'Marsati', een door Tacitus genoemde inheemse Germaanse stam."

English translation of the footnote:
"Landzaten, Marezaten and Hout- of Woldzaten - To be interpreted as those who live on land, lakes and in the woods, therefore land-, lake- and wood-dwellers. Of these names, 'Marezaten' refers to 'Marsati', a native Germanic tribe that was mentioned by Tacitus."

We keep discovering details from the OLB that are validated by historic sources and maps and other languages.

Hoax theorists believe that the supposed creators knew all these things that even the academic specialist of our times Jensma did not know when he published about the OLB in 2004 and 2006.

Yet we have not identified a single detail that CANNOT be true.

How realistic are the various hoax theories by now?

Edited by Otharus, 01 September 2011 - 07:35 AM.


#6167    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:24 AM

View PostKnul, on 31 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Examples

0046 Th‚ tha skinsl‚vona vsa t‚l mŚchtich wÍron, th‚ klivadon hja tha hÍrtoga Śnd Íthelinga an bord, Śnd kÍthon, hja moston [3M] thene Magy hÍroch wertha, sa kvndon hjara svnum vpfolgja tham, oni thrvch‑et folk kÍron to wrdane.
Ottema: Toen de schijn-slaven onze taal machtig waren, klampten zij de Hertogen en Edelingen aan boord en zeiden, dat zij den Magy onderhoorig moesten worden, dan konden hunne zoonen hen opvolgen zonder door het volk gekozen worden.
Sandbach: "When these pretended prisoners had learned our language, [...] they persuaded the dukes and nobles that they should become subject to the Magy - that then their sons would succeed to them without having to be elected.

Apparently Sandbach mistrusted the translation of Ottema and decided not to translate klivadon an bord - klampten aan boord. However bord = bard, Engl. beard. The expression kliva an bord = stroop aan de baard (of om de mond) smeren, d.w.z. vleien Eng. flatter. Why should Magy fix the noblemen on a ship to get something done to persuade them ?
For the record, you are referring to page 3, line 8 of the original manuscript (Ottema and Sandbach p.6-7).

You claim that BORD = BARD = BEARD, so you can translate KLIVADON with "smeren" (to smear, probably through "kleven"; to stick).

Again, you lost control over your fantasy, as I will demonstrate.

BORD is used several times and always in the meaning of "board" (of a ship; "boord" in Dutch):

[orig.p.55 line 4; O/S p.76-77]
KŃT ... JOMPADE WR BORD
KŠt ... jumped over board

[orig.p.85 line 6; O/S p.116-117]
WERP THAT WIF VR SKIPPES BORD
throw that woman over ship's board

[orig.p.86 line 20; O/S p.118-119]
HIF HINI VR BORD INTO HAT WņLLANDE HEF
lifted him over board into the surging billows

[orig.p.110 line 27; O/S p.150-151]
ET FRYA.S.D…I HONGON THA SKILDA OMMA THA BORDA TO
at Frya's day the shields hung around the boards

[orig.p.207 line 24; O/S p.248-249]
THA L…DLIKSTA ņND SWARTSTE WRDON AN BORD HALDEN
the ugliest and blackest were kept on board

[orig.p.208 line 1; O/S p.250-251]
TH…RVMBE WņRH ALLES OVIR BORD JOMPTH
therefore all was thrown over board

So... who has been misinterpreting here?


#6168    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:51 AM

View PostKnul, on 31 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Examples

0042 Tha bâsa ånd hjara storsta svnum krupton by tha lodderiga finna mangêrtum; ånd hjara åjne toghatera thrvch thåt vvle fârbild fon‑a wêi brocht, lêton hjara selva bigorda thrvch tha skênesta finna knâpa, hjara vvle aldrum to spot.
Ottema: De meesters en hunne kloekste zoonen kropen bij de wulpsche meisjes der Finnen; en hunne eigene dochteren, door het slechte voorbeeld van den weg gebracht, lieten zich door de schoonste knapen der Finnen begorden, ten spot van hare verdorvene ouders.
Sandbach: "The principal men and their cleverest sons made up to the wanton daughters of the Finnar; and their own daughters, led astray by this bad example, allowed themselves to be beguiled by the handsome young Finnar in derision of their depraved fathers.
...
However, the verb begorden means make pregnant. That is why people got 'vrbastered'.

See WNT lemma begorden: http://www.wnt.inl.n...WNT&id=M006160. It is clear, that Ds. Halbertsma got the word from the Statenbijbel. In his church nobody understood the word, neither Ottema.
Your second example of Ottema's supposed mistakes is from page 2 (line 26) of the original (Ottema p.6-7).

Ottema translated "BIGORDA" with "begorden", an old fashioned Dutch word that can still be found in Van Dale's famous Dutch dictionary.
Jensma (2006) translated the word correctly with the more modern "bezwangeren" (to impregnate).

Why would Ottema not have known what the word means?

How on Earth is it "clear, that Ds. Halbertsma got the word from the Statenbijbel"?

I don't know if one of the (19th century) meanings of "beguiled" is "impregnated".
If it is not, it is a mistake by Sandbach, not by Ottema.

Edited by Otharus, 01 September 2011 - 08:55 AM.


#6169    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:04 AM

View PostKnul, on 31 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Examples

You know, that the old genetive in the OLB is -his (tat his, tathis), shortened to -s (Adela-his > Adela-s, moeder-s wil is wet) and that this old genetive was replaced in the 15th-16th century by prepositions (fon-van). If you look at the OLB text you find only few cases of the old genetive (nachtis - 's nachts) and a overwhelming majority with the preposition fon, indicating that the OLB is a modern text.
No, I don't know if the "old genetive" (...-his or ...'s) was replaced in the 15th-16th century by prepositions (fon-van).

In fact, I don't believe that's true.

How do you know?

Both constructions are still used in Dutch and I don't think there's any reason to believe this has not been so over 2000 years ago.

I repeat, your conclusions are based on thin ice and marshy lands.
Have you ever considered writing fiction?
I think you'll be better at that.

(Just teasing... :rolleyes: )


#6170    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:08 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 August 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

Posted Image
BTW, when was this map made???

If it's after 1872 the maker could have been inspired by the OLB...

(You see, I can be skeptical too with material that would support OLB's authenticity. LOL!)


#6171    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:38 AM

In the Netherlands there are still several rural dialects, and only few of them have a (recent) written tradition.

At school, we learn to speak and write the national language "Common Civilised Dutch" (Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands or ABN).

The oldest documents in what is called (old-) Dutch, were written by monks or other authority-related people, who would have learned to read and write in Latin.

That does not mean there can not have been a much older writing tradition and it is far from sure that the oldest known attempts to write down the spoken language were accurate.

Modern Dutch or ABN will have been influenced by the various languages of the occupying forces or world-powers.

These were, roughly, from recent to old-times:

English
German
French
Spanish
German/ French
Roman (Italian/ Latin)

Yet, the Dutch language is unique and still has similarities to the languages of the more Northern (Scandinavian) countries.

This means that our original language must have been really old and deeply rooted in our folk-culture.

It is not hard to imagine that we will have had a written tradition, that was thoroughly destroyed for political reasons by the various occupying forces.

(Didn't Roman writers refer to a script that was used by the Gauls of which also no known examples exist?)

That one (and maybe more) documents did survive (in copy from whatever age) may be a miracle and unbelievable to some, but it is not impossible.

(Again I am just brainstorming out loud, please give your feedback if you have any.)

Edited by Otharus, 01 September 2011 - 10:06 AM.


#6172    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:39 AM

As some of you will know I created a blog where I copy my forum posts about the OLB (and more).

The statistics of this site give an indication of quantity and quality of people interested in the discussed subjects.

For who is interested, here is a summary of the last 8 months:

PAGEVIEWS
jan. 2
feb. 44
mar. 166
apr. 229
may 444
june 483
july 850
aug. 981

BY COUNTRY (top 10 of known)
547 United States
536 Netherlands
408 Moldova
367 Germany
206 Russia
145 Latvia
118 Ukraine
107 France
94 United Kingdom
62 India


#6173    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:14 AM

View PostOtharus, on 01 September 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

BTW, when was this map made???

If it's after 1872 the maker could have been inspired by the OLB...

(You see, I can be skeptical too with material that would support OLB's authenticity. LOL!)

http://en.wikipedia....nderjylland.gif

Description Nordens Historie - Sønderjylland.gif
Dansk: Historisk kort over området omkring Ejderen.
Date: 1936

Source: P.Ilsøe: «Nordens Historie»

Author Unknown



You forget Adam van Bremen already mentioned this tribe:

Holstein's name comes from the Holcetae, a Saxon tribe mentioned by Adam of Bremen as living on the north bank of the Elbe, to the west of Hamburg. The name means "dwellers in the wood" (Northern Low Saxon: Hol(t)saten; German: Holzsassen).

Other source:

http://books.google....olcetae&f=false

(I even read about the Waldsaze/Waltsazi/Waldsati and the Morseti/Morsati in that source)

Btw: the -ne suffix on the map I posted is a Danish thing.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 11:56 AM.


#6174    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:19 AM

View PostOtharus, on 01 September 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

(Didn't Roman writers refer to a script that was used by the Gauls of which also no known examples exist?)


I have posted about Caesar and the Helvetii. He noticed the Helvetii used Greek characters (and language?) to describe their army and so on.

He could read it, so I don't think it was in OLB script or language.

From my post 1573, page 105:
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=1560

29. In castris Helvetiorum tabulae repertae sunt litteris Graecis confectae et ad Caesarem relatae, quibus in tabulis nominatim ratio confecta erat, qui numerus domo exisset eorum qui arma ferre possent, et item separatim, quot pueri, senes mulieresque. [Quarum omnium rerum] summa erat capitum Helvetiorum milium CCLXIII, Tulingorum milium XXXVI, Latobrigorum XIIII, Rauracorum XXIII, Boiorum XXXII; ex his qui arma ferre possent ad milia nonaginta duo. Summa omnium fuerunt ad milia CCCLXVIII. Eorum qui domum redierunt censu habito, ut Caesar imperaverat, repertus est numerus milium C et X.

29. In the camp of the Helvetii, lists were found, drawn up in Greek characters, and were brought to Caesar, in which an estimate had been drawn up, name by name, of the number which had gone forth from their country of those who were able to bear arms; and likewise the boys, the old men, and the women, separately. Of all which items the total was:

Of the Helvetii [lit. of the heads of the Helvetii]
263,000 Of the Tulingi
36,000 Of the Latobrigi
14,000 Of the Rauraci
23,000 Of the Boii
32,000 The sum of all amounted to
368,000


http://www.perseus.t...ok=1:chapter=29

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 11:34 AM.


#6175    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 12:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 September 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....nderjylland.gif

Description Nordens Historie - SÝnderjylland.gif
Dansk: Historisk kort over omrŚdet omkring Ejderen.
Date: 1936

Source: P.IlsÝe: ęNordens HistorieĽ

Author Unknown



You forget Adam van Bremen already mentioned this tribe:

Holstein's name comes from the Holcetae, a Saxon tribe mentioned by Adam of Bremen as living on the north bank of the Elbe, to the west of Hamburg. The name means "dwellers in the wood" (Northern Low Saxon: Hol(t)saten; German: Holzsassen).

Other source:

http://books.google....olcetae&f=false

(I even read about the Waldsaze/Waltsazi/Waldsati and the Morseti/Morsati in that source)

Btw: the -ne suffix on the map I posted is a Danish thing.

.

I said in a former post that, ""Holt jefta Wods‚ta", that means that tribe was called Holts‚ta or Wods‚ta."

'Wod' = woods, forest. In German that would be 'Wald'.

This German text (using a source from 889) explains that Waldsazzi, Waltsatium, Walzsazi, Waldsaze, Waltsaze, Walsacia, Waltsezin has nothing to do with Saxons, but with natives or dwellers of the woods ("Waldaufsitzen")


http://wiki-de.genea..._des_Bisthums_W


#6176    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 12:58 PM

View PostOtharus, on 01 September 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:

As some of you will know I created a blog where I copy my forum posts about the OLB (and more).

The statistics of this site give an indication of quantity and quality of people interested in the discussed subjects.

For who is interested, here is a summary of the last 8 months:

PAGEVIEWS
jan. 2
feb. 44
mar. 166
apr. 229
may 444
june 483
july 850
aug. 981

BY COUNTRY (top 10 of known)
547 United States
536 Netherlands
408 Moldova
367 Germany
206 Russia
145 Latvia
118 Ukraine
107 France
94 United Kingdom
62 India

I think it would be interesting to know about the statistics for this thread. At the moment I write this, this thread had 156,057 views... (of course we must substract the views by the ones posting in this thread, but I think it will still leave a 100,000 views).


Anybody Googling "Oera Linda" together with some other search term is bound to end up here (which is no surprize after more than 400 pages).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 01:02 PM.


#6177    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:20 PM

I think I may have found the location of another tribe mentioned in the OLB.

Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum. Thêra thêr thâna til tha hêinde Krêkalânda sâton, wrdon blât Kâd-hêmar hêten, thrvch tham hja ninmerthe buta foron.

The Angelaren were men who (boat-)fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets. From there to the nearest Krekalands the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

There are those who have assumed the Kadhemar were the same as the Phoenicians, claiming a connection with the Phoenician "Kadmus".

Others said it were people living (heim/home) on/behind a 'kade' or quay.

Well, here's what I found (and I had to make a screenshot because I couldn't copy the Dutch text):

Posted Image

Source: http://hans.is-s.inf...NAAM DEEL V.htm


I won't give you a full translation, but I will give you this:

According to Grimm and Kluge the origin of the word ( cadum / kadum / cadhum / cadheim ) is lost in the mists of time.
In southern Germany, Switserland and Tirol it's the name of a single-room dwelling, a 'half-subterranean' chamber.

And according to the writer there's a connection with the Dutch 'kote' or 'kate', which like 'gade(m)' was the equivalent of the Latin word 'domus' = house.

"the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore."

In short: landlubbers (couch-potatoes? lol.). Or simply: people who stay home.


+++++++++++


EDIT:

Gaden

Im Althochdeutschen bedeutet gadam oder gadum ‚Raum, Gemach, Scheune‘. Der lateinische Begriff aedes (klassisches Latein) bedeutet dasselbe: eine aus einem Raum bestehende Wohnung, ein Gemach, ein Zimmer, eine Zelle (Klosterzelle). Eine althochdeutsche Glosse[1] übersetzt aedum mit den Begriffen: cadum, cadhum, kadum. Das sind offensichtlich latinisierte Formen von Gaden. Die beiden Worte haben also keinen gemeinsamen Ursprung. Die ursprüngliche Herkunft des Wortes Gaden ist unklar. Das meint auch Kluges Etymologisches Wörterbuch.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaden

Translation:

Gaden

In Old High German gadam or gadum, means 'room, chamber, barn'. The Latin word aedes (classical Latin) means the same thing: a dwelling consisting of one room, an appartment, one bedroom, one cell (monastery cell). An Old High German glosses [1] translated aedum with the terms: Cadum, cadhum, kadum. These are obviously Latinized forms of Gaden. The two words therefore have no common origin. The original origin of the word Gaden is unclear. That's also according to Kluge's Etymological Dictionary.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 04:11 PM.


#6178    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:06 PM

View PostOtharus, on 24 August 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

In the OLB, the following month-names are given, in the part supposedly written by Frétho-rik Oera-Linda, circa 300 BC. (page 115-116 of original manuscript):
ARNE MÔNATH (Jensma: harvest month - Aug.)
WOLFA-MÔNATH (J: Wolfsmaand - Dec.)
HERDE MÔNATH (J: Hardemaand - Jan.)
SELLA MÔNATH (J: Sellemaand - Feb.)
WINNA or MINNA MÔNATH (J: Winne-/ Minnemaand - May)
(FRJUNDSKIP or WINNE MONATH is also mentioned on page 93; MINNA MÔNATH is also mentioned on page 157)

(NOTE: the table on rodinbook.nl contains mistakes)
Dear mister Knul,

On your website (tab "onderzoek"), you give a table with the month names that occur in the OLB, compared to old-English month names.
You consider this to be main proof that Halbertsma created (part of) the OLB.

I would like to point out the mistakes you made in this table.

Your table:

month......oldenglish.......OLB
-----------------------------------
january....wulfamonath......wolfamonath
february...solmonath........sellamonath
march......hrethmonath......herdemonath
april......eastermonath  
may........thrimilce........minnemonath
june.......seremonath  
july.......maedmonath  
august.....weodmonath.......arnemonath?
september..haeerfestmonath  
october....winmonath........winnemonath, frivnskipmonath
november...windmonath  
december...aerra geola


The following months are correct:

ARNEMONATH = AREN- = harvest month = august
SELLAMONATH = february
MINNEMONATH = may

According to the "Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek", WOLFMAENT can refer to November, December or January, (source)
and according to the "Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal", HARDMAAND (or Hardemaand, Herdmaand) can refer to November, December, January or February.
But January is most common. (source)

From the context in the OLB, it makes more sense that HERDEMONATH refers to January (as Jensma said), and therefore that WOLFAMONATH refers to December (as Jensma said).

Also, in the OLB it is abundantly clear that MINNEMONATH = WINNEMONATH = FRJUNDSKIPMONATH (= may).

This means you misplaced FOUR monthnames in your table.

With kind greetings,
Otharus

Edited by Otharus, 01 September 2011 - 04:13 PM.


#6179    Otharus

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:31 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 September 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

I think I may have found the location of another tribe mentioned in the OLB.
So... what's the new location?

"KŃD" is used several times in the OLB, and as far as I can see from the context it just means "quay" or "coast".


#6180    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 04:39 PM

View PostOtharus, on 01 September 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

So... what's the new location?

"KÁD" is used several times in the OLB, and as far as I can see from the context it just means "quay" or "coast".

The location is what I posted in my former post: southern Germany, Switserland and Tirol.

It's quite close to those nearest Krekalands (Italy), right?

Posted Image

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 04:46 PM.