11638 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

In the north part of Britain which is full with high mountains, there exists a Scotch people—the most of them spring from Frya’s blood...

By and large, the Scots originate from the Irish of Dal Riada and NOT "from Frya's blood" as might be claimed in the OLB. BTW "Scotch" is a drink, the "Scots" are a people.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

"heten" means nothing but "is being called, is named".

"Ik heet X" = I am called X, or, My name is X
"Jij heet Y"  = You are called Y, or, Your name is Y
"Wij heten CC" = We are called CC, or, Our name is CC
"Zij heten FF" = They are called FF, or, Their name is FF.

A bit old fashioned Dutch: "Zij zijn Edammers geheten" = They are called Edammers.

I hope you noticed the difference between "heten" and "hethen", -t- and -th- .

The OLB even has a separate character for -th- .

.

Yes, heten is what I see the word I gave as, because a meaning is ethnicity - and that is why it means to you - my name, named etc - your ethnicity, not your race, earlier it appears to mean this, what I gave.
I'm trying to use the Frisian Dictionary - heton isn't there so hethen seems to me to be the same - th doesn't always come from th - it can be like ChelT-Ham - 2 seperate sounds not a TH as such. Ethnicity, named - same to me.

It says Saxmanna heten, it would be Saxmannan ethnicity - their name...

I agree with you, I just think heten is from hethen in the Fris. Dictionary.

hemer is the word I'm stuck on.

Kad-hemar heten

Coast/quay (something) ethnicity/named.

Hemar comes up as bitumen or asphalt most often, in Hebrew.

The simplest explanation would be 'people who have their HOME (HEM) on the QUAY (= KAD)'. And the AR part is only a suffix for a multiple

I don't think makes any sense for people who lived inland and never went to sea.

I got Gadheim for some people like Cadheim...

[The Puzzler]

OK, so it can be Kat now instead of kad, inside quay land or whatever I saw 3 pages back -
Kat-hemar heten

Inside the quays land (NOT the coast) + home + ethnicity (named).

They lived inside of the coastal quays, so never went to sea.

I think I get it now.

Or maybe not.

Originally Katham was an independent town. The place name indicates a piece of land outside a dike, Ham, and belonging to someone called Kat or Katte. But Kat may also refer to a quay located along the Zuiderzee, or a reference to the nearby Katwoude.

Outside a dyke, I thought it said inside of it...

I give up on Kadhemar for now.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 September 2011 - 02:22 AM.

[The Puzzler]

I got a new one.
I wonder if it means mountain dwellers...like goats or goat-like people.

Cad may be Gad like Kadik becomes Gades - the KAD/GAD sound.

I agree in Phoenician this is quay as well. (Walled stronghold)

BUT..
Proto-IE: *g(')hemar-
Meaning: kid
Old Greek: khímaro-s `Ziegenbock', f. `Ziege'; khímai̯ra f. `junge Ziege'; Bez. eines mythischen Ungeheuers
Germanic: *gumara-z, *gumirō, *gimirō(n), *gimalōn, etc.
http://starling.rine...756&root=config

That is kid as in Goat, also sheep or lamb.

Remember goats from gates and caps and Gadirs.

But GAD is also GOAT.
Another symbol of Gad is a goat. The very name Gad means goat

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 September 2011 - 02:37 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Here's 'land outside the dike':

kâch, kei, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Land außerhalb des Deichs; ne. land (N.)
outside the dike; Hw.: vgl. mnd. kôch; Q.: (1488); E.: germ. *kauga-, *kaugaz, st.
M. (a), Land vor dem Deich, eingedeichtes Land, Koog; W.: nfries. kogg; W.:
nnordfries. kug, kog; L.: Hh 54a, Hh 163, Rh 861a

All Gad in Frisian points to gather words. Together, bind, unite - Gaderia is there.
There is no Kad or Cad words in the Fris. dictionary.

I don't know, but I do know, many words stem from the actions of kid goats playing..frolicing and such - kidding around etc.

Gader might even mean the action of the goats in gathering together, binding, uniting and playing as kids.

This is probably KALTA - kal-t-ia 4, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. sprechen, sagen; ne. speak; Vw.: s. bi-, on-,
umbe-*; Hw.: s. kel-l-a; Q.: H, W, S; E.: germ. *kalt-, sw. V., rufen; s. idg. *gal-
(2), V., rufen, schreien, Pokorny 350; L.: Hh 54b, Rh 856b

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 02 September 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

By and large, the Scots originate from the Irish of Dal Riada and NOT "from Frya's blood" as might be claimed in the OLB. BTW "Scotch" is a drink, the "Scots" are a people.

cormac

LOL, I have noticed the typo in Sandbach's translation ("Scotch"), but I left it in on purpose.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 03 September 2011 - 01:43 AM, said:

Yes, heten is what I see the word I gave as, because a meaning is ethnicity - and that is why it means to you - my name, named etc - your ethnicity, not your race, earlier it appears to mean this, what I gave.
I'm trying to use the Frisian Dictionary - heton isn't there so hethen seems to me to be the same - th doesn't always come from th - it can be like ChelT-Ham - 2 seperate sounds not a TH as such. Ethnicity, named - same to me.

It says Saxmanna heten, it would be Saxmannan ethnicity - their name...

I agree with you, I just think heten is from hethen in the Fris. Dictionary.

hemer is the word I'm stuck on.

Kad-hemar heten

Coast/quay (something) ethnicity/named.

Hemar comes up as bitumen or asphalt most often, in Hebrew.

The simplest explanation would be 'people who have their HOME (HEM) on the QUAY (= KAD)'. And the AR part is only a suffix for a multiple

I don't think makes any sense for people who lived inland and never went to sea.

I got Gadheim for some people like Cadheim...

"I agree with you, I just think heten is from hethen in the Fris. Dictionary".

If you check the German version of the Old Frisian Dictionary, it says "heta" => being called.

No -th- there.

hê-t-a (2) 48, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. heißen, nennen, befehlen; ne. call
(V.), be called, order (V.); ÜG.: lat. dÆcere K 2; Vw.: s. und-; Hw.: vgl. got.
haitan, heita (1), ae. hõtan, anfrk. hÐtan*, as. hêtan, ahd. heizan*; Q.: H, W, R, E,
Jur, K 2; E.: germ. *haitan, st. V., heißen, rufen; idg. *kÐid-?, V., bewegen,
befehlen, heißen, Pokorny 538; s. idg. *kÐi-, *kýi-, *kÂ-, V., bewegen, sich
bewegen, Pokorny 538; W.: nfries. hietten, V., heißen; W.: saterl. heta, V., heißen;
W.: nnordfries. hiete, V., heißen; L.: Hh 43b, Rh 812a

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-H.pdf



And "Hemar" is Hem + Ar, and -ar stands for multiplicity. The modern Germans still use a similar ending when there is a multiple: Man > Männer = man > men.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 September 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

And "Hemar" is Hem + Ar, and -ar stands for multiplicity. The modern Germans still use a similar ending when there is a multiple: Man > Männer = man > men.

In Swedish, -ar is (also) still used for plural:

anteckningar - notes (dutch: aantekeningen)
bilar - cars (automoBILes)
slavar - slaves (dutch: slaven)

[Abramelin]

Lol, thanks: 'plural' was the word I was looking for.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 27 July 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

Read the rest here about the OLB "kroder" :
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=4920

Now this:


According to Konrad Botho's Chronicle of the Saxons or Saxon Chronicle from 1492 Krodo was a Germanic god of the Saxons who is supposed to have been similar to the Roman god Saturn and in 780 was overthrown at Harzburg by Charlemagne during the defeat of the East Saxons.

The Saxon Chronicle (Sassenchronik) contains a fanciful picture of Krodo as a man, who is standing on a large fish holding a bucket of flowers in his right hand and an upright wheel in his left. Because the Saxon Chronicle is the only source, the existence today of the god Krodo is generally considered doubtful along with other supposed Germanic gods such of doubtful origin[1] such as Ostara, Biel, Stuffo or Lollus. Despite that there is in Goslar today still the so-called Krodo Altar which probably stems dates to 1040. In folk legend the tales of the Idol of Crodo (Götzen Crodo) were passed down apparently as a subject in the region of the villages of Götzenthal and Grotenleide near the Saxon town of Meerane.[2]

The spa resort of Bad Harzburg advertises itself today using the figure of Krodo as a mascot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krodo

And watch the wheel..




According to the WikiTalk page Grimm himself (and you'll know who's best friend he was..) was responsible for the creation of this "Krodo":

"...According to legend Charlemagne had a chapel built on the Burgberg mountain (482m/1,581ft) about 780 in the place of a Saxon sacred grove dedicated to the pagan god Krodo" ... "Krodo"? 4.242.174.19 (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we could definitely use an article on Krodo. Krodo is currently unmentioned here. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I once spent an afternoon digging up information on Krodo only to find out he's probably a total (though perhaps pious?) fabrication. Needless to say, I was bummed. That didn't stop people from casting a statue of him in the not-so-distant past, mind you. To the IP-user: If you're interested, try starting by looking him up in Grimm's Teutonic Mythology, and follow the trail of breadcrumbs... --Aryaman (talk) 01:43, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I came to a similar conclusion. There are some other interesting deities (?) to dig into on the same wavelength, such as Horsel and Béél. The most recent source I've seen mentioning either deity is Pennick's History of Pagan Europe, and sometimes it plays loose with the facts. On the other hand, it's also pretty solid in most areas. Grimm likely has something on both figures...:bloodofox: (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia....ermanic_deities


And you won't believe this: I found it because I actually wanted to look up "Frodo" (Lord of the Rings) !!


+++++++++++++

EDIT:

So it was Grimm's idea/dscovery this "Krodo" was equal/similar to Saturn. And we know Saturn stands for "Time": the OLB Kroder.


Grimm's Teutonic Mythology

Chapter 12 (Page 5)

But that AS. Sæteresbyrig from the middle of the 11th century irresistibly recalls the 'burg' on the Harz mts, built (according to our hitherto despised accounts of the 15th century in Bothe's Sachsenchronik) to the idol Saturn, which Saturn, it is added, the common people called Krodo; to this we may add the name touched upon in p. 206 (Hrêðe, Hrêðemônað), for which an older Hruodo, Chrôdo was conjectured. (21) We are told of an image of this Saturn or Krodo, which represented the idol as a man standing on a great fish, holding a pot of flowers in his right hand, and a wheel erect in his left; the Roman Saturn was furnished with the sickle, not a wheel (see Suppl.). (22)


Here some Slav conceptions appear to overlap. Widukind (Pertz 5, 463) mentions a brazen simulacrum Saturni among the Slavs of the tenth century, without at all describing it; but Old Bohemian glosses in Hanka 14ª and 17ª carry us farther. In the first, Mercurius is called 'Radihost vnuk Kirtov' (Radigast grandson of Kirt), in the second, Picus Saturni filius is glossed 'ztracec Sitivratov zin' (woodpecker, Sitivrat's son); and in a third 20ª, Saturn is again called Sitivrat. Who does not see that Sitivrat is the Slavic name for Saturn, which leads us to the first glance to sit = satur? Radigast = Mercury (p. 130n.) is the son of Stracec = Picus; and in fact Greek myths treat Picus (Pikoj) as Zeus, making him give up the kingdom to his son Hermes. Picus is Jupiter, son of Saturn; but beside Sitivrat we have learnt another name for Saturn, namely Kirt, which certainly seems to be our Krodo and Hruodo. Sitivrat and Kirt confirm Saturn and Krodo; I do not know whether the Slavic word is to be connected with the Boh. krt, Pol. kret, Russ. krot, i.e., the mole. (23) I should prefer to put into the other name Sitivrat the subordinate meaning of sito-vrat, sieve-turner, so that it would be almost the same as kolo-vrat, wheel-turner, and afford a solution of that wheel in Krodo's hand; both wheel (kolo) and sieve (sito) move round, and an ancient spell rested on sieve-turning. Slav mythologists have identified Sitivrat with the Hindu Satyâvrata, who in a great deluge is saved by Vishnu in the form of a fish. Krodo stands on a fish; and Vishnu is represented wearing wreaths of flowers about his neck, and holding a wheel (chakra) in his fourth hand. (24) All these coincidences are still meagre and insecure; but they suffice to establish the high antiquity of a Slavo-Teutonic myth, which starts up thus from more than one quarter.  

http://www.northvegr...logy/01205.html

.

Has anyone visited this statue of Krodo in Germany? I think there is something written on the wheel this god holds in his hand.

The only other pic of Krodo (most probably the "Kroder" of the OLB) is this:



http://woick-wandern.../crodo_plan.htm

What I get is that this Krodo is an invention by the Romans, or that they added their idea of Saturn to the already existing image of this German god.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 September 2011 - 07:44 PM.

[Otharus]

The following is an example of something getting lost in the English translation...
and because I will move to Egmond aan Zee next thursday  

[OLB p.110 line 31; O+S p.153]
ABEFTA THÉRE FLÍT WAS EN GRÀFT GRÀVEN.
TO HLÁPANDE DÁNA ALINGEN THÉRE BURCH FOR.ÁNA
ÀND FORTH MITH EN ÉGA MVDA IN SÉ.
TO FÁRA THERE FLÁTE WÉRE THIT THA UTGVNG
ÀND ET FLÍ THA INGVNG.
A BÉDE SÍDA THÉRE GRÀFT SEND SKÉNE HUSA
MITH HEL BLIKANDA FARWA MÁLAD.
THA GÁRDNE SEND MITH ALTID GRÉNE HÁGVM OMTUNAD.
IK HÀV THÉR WIVA SIAN THÉR FILTNE TOHNEKNA DROGON
AS.T SKRIF.FILT WÉRE.
LIK TO STAVEREN WÉRON THA MÀNGÉRTNE
MITH GOLDEN KRONUM VPPIR HOLUM
ÀND MITH HRINGUM OM ÀRMA ÀND FÉT SJARAD.

[Ottema]
Van uit die vliet was eene gracht gegraven
van daar voortloopende langs de burgt Forana
en voorts met eene enge mond in zee.
Voor de vloot was dit de uitgang
en het Fly de ingang.
Aan beide zijden der gracht zijn schoone huizen
met helder blinkende verwen geschilderd.
De tuinen zijn met altijd groene hagen omheind [=omtuind].
Ik heb daar vrouwen gezien die viltene tunikas droegen,
als of het schrijffilt was.
Even als te Staveren waren de meisjes
met gouden kroonen op hare hoofden
en met ringen om de armen en voeten gesierd.

[Sandbach]
From the river a canal was dug
going past the citadel Forana (Vroonen),
with a narrow outlet to the sea.
This was the egress of the fleet;
the Fly was the ingress.
On both sides of the river are fine houses built,
painted in bright colours.
The gardens are all surrounded by green hedges.
I saw there women wearing felt tunics,
as if it were writing felt.
Just as at Staveren, the girls wore
golden crowns on their heads,
and rings on their arms and ankles.

[OLB p.210 line 16; O+S p.253]
THAWILA THÀT.ET ALLES BÉRADE
HLIPON THA MÁGJARA JETA DRÍSTER AS TO FÁRA
OVIR VSA BÚRA RA LANDA HINNA.
BY EGMVDA HWÉR TO FÁRA THÉRE BURCH FOR.ÁNA STÁN HÉDE
LÉTON HJA ÉNE CHERKA BVWA
JETA GRÁTER ÀND RIKAR AS ASKAR TO STÁVEREN DÉN HÉDE.

[Ottema]
Terwijl dit alles gebeurde,
liepen de Magyaren nog stoutmoediger [=driester] [als tevoren]
over de landen onzer naburen heen.
Bij Egmuda, waar te voren de burgt Forana gestaan had,
lieten zij eene kerk bouwen
nog grooter en rijker als Askar te Staveren gedaan had.

[Sandbach]
While all this was going on,
the Magyars went about audaciously
over the lands of our neighbours.
Near Egmuda, where formerly the citadel Forana had stood,
they built a church
larger and richer than that which Askar had built at Staveren.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

The only other pic of Krodo (most probably the "Kroder" of the OLB) is this:

The Enkhuizer Almanac also published one (don't know when, but long before OLB was published).

 saturdag Enkhuizer Almanak.gif   17.77K   2 downloads

[Abramelin]

But it was Grimm, Halbertsma's best friend, who popularized Krodo.

Think about that one, please.

Before Grimm, no one even knew about "Krodo".

Yeah, his ages old sources did, but not anyone from his time.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 September 2011 - 10:26 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 09:55 PM, said:

But it was Grimm, Halbertsma's best friend, who popularized Krodo.

Think about that one, please.

Before Grimm, no one even knew about "Krodo".

Yeah, his ages old sources did, but not anyone from his time.

What is your source for Grimm being Halbertsma's "best friend"?
And how do you know that before Grimm "no one knew about Krodo"?

Anyway, what are you suggesting? That Halbertsma wrote the OLB?
There is too many reasons why he CANNOT have done it.

Read some of his publications.
He had an extremely boring style and was not THAT intelligent.

He was a Frisian nationalist.
Why would he add so many so-called Hollandisms (words that are more like Dutch than as Frisian).
Why would he be negative about Frisian supposed founding father Friso?

Something else...

Have you read Jensma's "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) yet?
It's the most serious hoax-theory attempt and even that one is not convincing (actually, I think it's hilarious).

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

"I agree with you, I just think heten is from hethen in the Fris. Dictionary".

If you check the German version of the Old Frisian Dictionary, it says "heta" => being called.

No -th- there.

hê-t-a (2) 48, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. heißen, nennen, befehlen; ne. call
(V.), be called, order (V.); ÜG.: lat. dÆcere K 2; Vw.: s. und-; Hw.: vgl. got.
haitan, heita (1), ae. hõtan, anfrk. hÐtan*, as. hêtan, ahd. heizan*; Q.: H, W, R, E,
Jur, K 2; E.: germ. *haitan, st. V., heißen, rufen; idg. *kÐid-?, V., bewegen,
befehlen, heißen, Pokorny 538; s. idg. *kÐi-, *kýi-, *kÂ-, V., bewegen, sich
bewegen, Pokorny 538; W.: nfries. hietten, V., heißen; W.: saterl. heta, V., heißen;
W.: nnordfries. hiete, V., heißen; L.: Hh 43b, Rh 812a

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-H.pdf



And "Hemar" is Hem + Ar, and -ar stands for multiplicity. The modern Germans still use a similar ending when there is a multiple: Man > Männer = man > men.

.

Yep, yep, I see - but I still think heta - 'be called' is some sort of shorter form of the original hethen, ethnicity.

Not sure about that Hemar though. You think Home-ers?