11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 10:08 AM, said:

This is why most members of the 19th century Fryske Akademy were horrified by the OLB (apart from the religious and political tension it would have created).

(The political goal of the F.A. was to promote Frisian contemporary culture and language.)

The Frisian Academy is now related to the Royal Dutch Academy calling itself of Sciences (KNAW - Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie zich noemende van Wetenschappen).

Fryske Academy
The Fryske Academy is the centre of research on Fryslân (Friesland). It conducts research into the Frisian language and literature, the history of Fryslân, and present-day social and cultural trends.

The studies carried out by the Fryske Academy are typically comparative in nature: they compare the Frisian language and culture of past and present with the language and culture of other Dutch regions or other cultural minorities, in particular indigenous minority groups in Europe. In addition, the Fryske Academy also provides courses at the University of Amsterdam and Leiden University.
http://www.knaw.nl/P...GFuZz1FTkc.html

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 October 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

The only other translation for Gosa Makonta is of course the one every Dutch person thinks of when s/he reads/hears the name...

Goffe Jensma (2004, p.137) points out that the name "Gosa Makonta" reminds of the Westfrisian (North-Holland) expresion "He is Geesje de Konte", meaning something like: He tastes defeat.

In "De Navorscher" of 1871 (p.152) the expression "Hij raakt Geesje de Konte" (he touches or strikes GdK) is mentioned (without being explained).

As usual in this debate, two explanations are possible:

1. OLB's GOSA MAKONTA was inspired by this old slang expression.

or

2. The slang expression is based on a historical (or mythological) character GOSA MAKONTA.

Edited by Otharus, 14 October 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Goffe Jensma (2004, p.137) points out that the name "Gosa Makonta" reminds of the Westfrisian (North-Holland) expresion "He is Geesje de Konte", meaning something like: He tastes defeat.

In "De Navorscher" of 1871 (p.152) the expression "Hij raakt Geesje de Konte" (he touches or strikes GdK) is mentioned (without being explained).

As usual in this debate, two explanations are possible:

1. OLB's GOSA MAKONTA was inspired by this old slang expression.

or

2. The slang expression is based on a historical (or mythological) character GOSA MAKONTA.

I never heard of that expression, but then I'm not a West Frisian.

I found it here:


3. Hij raakt Geesje de Konte.

http://www.dbnl.org/...pe=txt&common=1

It says 'raakt' (=touches) instead of 'is', and the expression would indeed translate like "He touches Geesje's butt" or "He touches Geesje de Konte".

Do you know where the expression comes from?

==

Anyway, my initial translation "Gosewin (from) Mainz" doesn't have to be wrong. Knul said Mainz was too far away from Frisian territory, but it's just a surname (for some reason). I have known a woman who was called E. van Leipsig, and she was as Dutch as Dutch comes, but of course she could be descendent from Germans (Leipzig) ages ago.

And I don't think Mainz is too far away from Frisian territory (or Fryan territory) in the case of it being a nickname.

The fact that the OLB doesn't offer an explanation of the name suggests that the people who the OLB was meant for would know about about this surname/nickname, or that it was meant as a hint, a hidden clue to a source of the OLB.

The reason I got stuck with "Mainz" is of course because:

-1- Erfurt belonged to the diocese of Mainz
-2- Erfurt was the place of birth of Ernest Staderman
-3- Staderman was a bookprinter/-binder and very literate
-4- Mainz was the place of birth of the famous Johan Gutenberg
-5- Both Mainz and Erfurt carry a six-spoked wheel (or two connected ones) in their flags/coats of arms
-6- 19th century bookpresses looked like I posted earlier, with (two large) connected six-spoked gear wheels

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

This scenario is even less credible than that of Goffe Jensma, who IMO is more knowledgeable about the subject than you and Knul together (no offense intended).

Having read about Halbertsma's near fanatic obsession about anything Frisian, about Frisian language, culture and history, I can easily imagine he created something that was meant for his sole pleasure or maybe only for some of his close friends.

There is of course no 100% proof he did it, but he certainly was capable of doing it: he had the knowledge, he had the talent and he had the motive.


Let me give you an example of what I mean.

When I was in Peru many years ago, I met the South American 'Erich von Däniken' : Javier Cabrera who lived in Ica.

He had become famous because of his socalled "Ica Stones", stones depicting ancient scenes of people using telescopes, people playing with dinosaurs, ancient world-maps with continents that no longer exist, and so on.

But contrary to Von Däniken, he was not a liar and a fraud; he had been fooled by the people who gave him these 'ancient' artifacts. He kept paying these (poor) people, and so they kept 'finding' these stones.

Then, after a couple of days, I met a pottery maker. This guy was extremely talented in re-creating ancient Inca pottery. He did it because he was very proud about his Inca ancestry. At some point I asked him if he had ever heard of this Cabrera. Well, that turned the converstation into a bad direction, lol: he got very angry, said this guy was a dishonour for anything Peruvian, and how in hell could I have even wanted to meet that fraud.

Well, I was able to convince him that Cabrera may have been a fool, but not a fraud, and that it were the people he paid were the ones he should be angry about. Heh, and so he was, and started fuming even more.

But things relaxed eventually and I started wandering around in his shop, looking for something to buy as souvenir. I found a pot with a depiction of an ancient Inca god of the Wind, and bought it. It was a perfect copy of Inca art.

OK, my point: now imagine I was not Dutch, but a Peruvian who fanatically wanted to bring Peruvian history back into the lime lights. I buy a couple of these pots and maybe other things this guy had created, and then tell everybody what I had 'found' (instead of simply bought in some shop).

You have the situation of one guy re-creating the art of his ancestors because he could and was very proud of his ancestry, and another guy (me) who hijacked his creations and promoted them as real ancient artifacts. So the pottery maker would be a Halbertsma, I would be a Verwijs/Over de Linden/Staderman/whoever.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 October 2011 - 02:47 PM.

[Abramelin]

To make the comparison in my former post complete I should add this:


This pottery maker was well-read, he knew a lot about Incan history but also about the people who far preceeded the Incas, and/or those who got conquered by the Incas.

He had read about the possibility the Incas had sailed to the Galapagos, Easter Island and god knows where (there are even those who think the Incas or their predecessors had been in contact with the people of Meso-America).

So what does he do? He creates some pots depicting scenes of - let's say - Incas sailing the Pacific, he depicts in real Incan style an animal that looks very much like a kangaroo (short frontlegs, large hindlegs and a big tail), and even a white bird with a crest and a crooked beak that looks like a cockatoo.

Then I come in, have the talk I wrote about, wander around in his shop, and see these pots with the scenes I just described. I ask him about it, he laughs and tells me he was playing with his imagination but that it is nothing of any value, and why do I not buy the more authentic stuff. I will say I like it anyway, that I think it's really beautifull even though it doesn't depict anything historically accurate, and that I want to buy it.

He then tells me I can have it for almost nothing for it isn't of any real value to anyone.

I buy it, I leave, and then the ball starts rolling... a few years after this guy dies.




We all know Halbertsma died a few years before the OLB was published, and he could have given his 'version of an alternative Frisian history' away for free to some yet unknown visitor because he saw no harm in it (Halbertsma died in 1869, Ottema published the OLB along his translation in 1872. Verwijs received pages of the manuscript years earlier from Over de Linden, but why should he inform Halbertsma?).

.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 October 2011 - 05:53 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

Well, religion has been mentioned in respect to the OLB a couple of times, and by accident I found something interesting... hmmm... let's say it's funny.

Did you all know that the first Dutch converts of the Latter Day Saints ("Book of Mormon") lived in Friesland?? That happened in 1861, in the town of "Broek onder Akkerwoude", south of Dokkum.

I just thought that 'some Frisian' may have gotten his inspiration to write an 'ancient manuscript' from these people of the Book of Mormon...

The Mormons don't seem to be doing that bad believing in what some 'rear-end-talker' cooked up with no shred of evidence to back up his claims.

I think the Frisians wouldn't do that bad either if they accepted the OLB as a true acount of their history, and  then spread their belief in it all over the world.

But belief or not, success because of it or not, it will not be proof of anything.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 October 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 13 October 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

I have posted a quite long post about how one could pull that trick, weeks ago.

Nice try but it doesn't have spirit.

Nothing witty, poetic or provoking?

OLB is not about language only.

The humor, beauty and controversial content makes it worth studying,
whenever it was created and whoever were involved.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

Nice try but it doesn't have spirit.

Nothing witty, poetic or provoking?

OLB is not about language only.

The humor, beauty and controversial content makes it worth studying,
whenever it was created and whoever were involved.

You know damn well it does have spirit.

The OLB is not all about humor and beauty, ok?

It's also about moral and fighting spirit, and that is why I transliterated that sentence into OLB script/language.

And, like I said, it took me like 10 minutes.

You just won't accept that people who are motivated enough can create texts that will amaze people.

I know it is possible, and just because I did it myself.

-

A point to consider: you talk about 'facts', *I* talk about 'psychology'.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 October 2011 - 07:20 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 October 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

And, like I said, it took me like 10 minutes.

You just won't accept that people who are motivated enough can create texts that will amaze people.

I know it is possible, and just because I did it myself.

So let´s see if your little creation will inspire any discussion here.

You, being a 21st century hoaxer and web/wizard, should be able to really impress us now.

LOL

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

So let´s see if your little creation will inspire any discussion here.

You, being a 21st century hoaxer and web/wizard, should be able to really impress us now.

LOL

Man...

OK.

I DID create an online hoax, or whatever people want to call it.

I even admitted I did, but the believers just thought I wanted to back out because of all the criticism I received.

So whatever I admitted, the believers would stay put.

Well, then I thought, "the hell with it, if you want to believe, not my problem".

Otharus, I hope you think I am intelligent enough to create a new page, an unknown part of the OLB.

True, I won't do it all on my own, I will ask the help of a linguist and a historian.

The rest, aged paper and the script will be my thing. I worked in a print shop for 10 years.

[Abramelin]

I know you read it, but nada, eh?

I will bet you will like to think things over.

That's ok with me.

People need time to fabricate some sort of excuse or 'reason', lol.

Believe me, I know.

I really do know how this online game works.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 October 2011 - 09:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

| tell you: it is very easy to make people *believe*.

You just have to have a well functioning memory, and a convincing talk.

People will fall for it, believe me.

They will.

[Knul]

What do we know about Gosa-Makonta ? She appears to be Eremother on Fryasburg in Texland. In the second year of her reign Hellenia-folgar appeared in Stavoren. The officials did not know what to do with them and asked the advice of Gosa. Her advise is to let the people come and have them mixed with the Frisians, because they were received with salt and bread (biblical signs of hospitality). People doubted if the new-comers indeed would be real Frisians. When Gosa died, she was honoured for her good and clearsightedness. Who were these new-comers (Hellenja folgars) ? I think, it were the Geertmannen, who built a harbour at Piraeus close to Athens. The Geertmannen were neighbours of the Frisians in the time of Alexander the Great. They participated under their leader Geert en his schout-bij-nacht Wigchirte in the expedition of Alexander the Great. They lived in Carmania, from wich they have taken their name, whereas the Frisians lived in Gedrosia. Now they became neighbours again. Here Liudgert comes in. It has been Suobene (Ifkja) who has tried to get the peoples under the same law. But the author of the OLB does not want to pay attention to the Geertmannen (because they were no real Frisians as I suppose). I think the Geertmannen have been wrongly taken as Germans, because they were the Groningers. Please tell me your opinion.

Texts

[BOEK VAN FRETHORIK EN WILJOW MS PAG. 117]

vrdên . Tha stjurar aend ôr fârande folk , thêr to honk wêron , hêde hjara selva mith mâga aend sibba vppira skepum hret . 16. Men thaet swarte folk fon Lydasburch aend Alikmarum hêde alên dên . Thawil tha swarta sûdward dryvon , hêdon hja fêlo maengêrtne hret , aend nêidam nimman ne kêm to aska tham , hildon hja tham to hjara wiva . Tha maenniska thêr to bek kêmon , gvngon alle binna tha hringdika thêra burgum hêma , thrvchdam et thêr buta al slyp aend broklând wêre . Tha gamla husa wrde byên klust . Fona boppalândum kâpade maen ky aend skêp , aend inna tha grâte husa thêr to fâra tha fâmna sêten hêde , wrde nw lêken aend filt mâkad , vmbe thes lêvens willa . 17. Thaet skêd 1888 jêr nêi thaet Atlând svnken was . 18. In 282 jêr nêdon wi nên Êremoder navt hat , aend nw ella tomet vrlêren skinde , gvng maen êne kjasa . Thet hlot falde vp Gosa to nômath Makonta . Hju wêre Burchfâm et Fryasburch to Texlând . Hel fon hawed aend klâr fon sin , êlle god , aend thrvchdam hira burch allêna spârad was , sach alrik thêrut hira hropang . 19. Tjan jêr lêttere kêmon tha stjurar fon Forana aend fon Lydas burch . Hja wildon tha swarta maenniska mith wif aend bern to thet lând utdryva . Thêrwr

vernield. De zeelieden en ander varens volk, die te huis waren, hadden zich zei ven gered met magen en bloedverwanten op hunne schepen. 16. Maar het zwarte volk van Lydasburgt en Alkmarum had eveneens gedaan. Terwijl de zwarten zuidwaarts dreven, hadden zij vele meisjes gered, en naardien niemand kwam om ze op te eischen, hielden zij haar tot hunne vrouwen. De menschen die terug kwamen, gingen allen binnen de ringdijken der burgten wonen, omdat het daar buiten alles slib en broekland was. De oude huizen werden zamen geklust. Van de bovenlanden kocht men koeijen en schapen, en in de groote huizen, daar te voren de maagden gevestigd waren, werd nu laken en filt gemaakt, om des levens wille. 17. Dit geschiedde 1888 jaren nadat Atland gezonken was. 18. In 282 jaren hadden wij geene Eeremoeder gehad en nu alles bijna verloren scheen, ging men eene kiezen. Het lot viel op Gôsa toegenaamd Makonta. Zij was Burgtmaagd op Fryasburgt te Texland. Helder van hoofd en klaar van zin, heel goed, en omdat hare burgt alleen gespaard was, zag iedereen daaruit hare roeping. 19. Tien jaren later kwamen de zeelieden van Forana en van Lydasburgt. Zij wilden de zwarte mannen met vrouw en kinderen uit het land drijven. Daarover  

destroyed. The navigators and other travellers who were at home had saved themselves, their goods, and their relations upon their ships. 16. But the black people at Lydasburch and Alkmarum had done the same; and as they went south they saved many girls, and as no one came to claim them, they took them for their wives. The people who came back all lived within the lines of the burgh, as outside there was nothing but mud and marsh. The old houses were all smashed together. People bought cattle and sheep from the upper lands, and in the great houses where formerly the femmes were established cloth and felt were made for a livelihood. 17. This happened in the year 1888 after the submersion of Atland. 18. For two hundred and eighty-two years we had not had a folk-mother, and now, when everything seemed lost, they set about choosing one. The lot fell upon Gosa, surnamed Makonta. She was burgh-femme of Fryasburch, in Texland. She had a clear head and strong sense, and was very good; and as her burgh was the only one that had been spared, every one saw in that her call. 19. Ten years after that the navigators came from Forana and Lydasburch. They wished to drive the black men, with their wives and children, out of the land.

[BOEK VAN FRETHORIK EN WILJOW MS PAG. 118]

wildon hja thêre Moder is rêd biwinna . 20. Men Gosa [162] frêje , kaenst ên aend ôr to bek fora nêi hjra lândum , thaen âchste spod to mâkjande , owers ne skilun hja hjara mâga navt wither ne finda . 21. Nê sêide hja . 22. Thâ sêide Gosa : Hja haevon thin salt provad aend thin braed êten . Hjara lif aend lêva haevon hja vnder jow hod staelad . I moste jow ajne hirta bisêka . Men ik wil thi en rêd jeva . Hald hjam alond jow waeldich biste vm ra wither honk to fora . Men hald hjam bi jow burgum thêr bûta . Wâk ovir hjara sêd aend lêr hjam as jef hja Fryas svna wêre . Hjra wiva send hyr tha steriksta . As rêk skil hjara blod vrfljuchta , til er tha lesta navt owers as Fryas blod in hjara aefterkvmande skil bilywa . 23. Sâ send hja hyr bilêwen . 24. Nw winst ik wel thaet mina aefterkvmande thêr vp letta , ho fêr Gosa wêrhêd sprek . Thâ vsa lânda wither to bigana wêr , kêmon thêr banda erma Saxmanna aend wiva nêi tha vvrdum fon Stavere aend thaet Alderga , vmbe golden aend ôra sjarhêd to sêkane fon ut tha wasige bodeme . Thach tha stjurar nildon hja navt to lêta . Tha gvngon hja tha lêthoga thorpa bihêma to West Flyland , vmbe ra lif to bihaldane . Nw wil ik skriwa ho tha gêrtmanna

wilden zij de raad der Moeder inwinnen. 20. Maar Gôsa [163] vroeg: **** gij een en ander terug voeren naar hunne landen, dan behoort gij spoed te maken, anders zullen zij hunne bloedverwanten niet weder vinden. 21. Neen, zeiden zij. 22. Toen zeide Gôsa: Zij hebben uw zout' geproefd en uw brood gegeten. Hun lijf en leven hebben zij onder uwe hoede gesteld. Gij moet uw eigen hart onderzoeken. Maar ik wil u een raad geven. Houdt hen tot dat gij in staat zijt om hen weder naar huis te voeren. Maar houdt hen bij uwe burg ten daar buiten. Waakt over hunne zeden, en onderwijst hen alsof zij Fryas zonen waren. Hunne vrouwen zijn hier de sterkste. Als rook zal hun bloed vervliegen, tot er ten laatsten niets anders dan Fryas bloed in hunne nakomelingen zal overblijven. 23. Zoo zijn zij hier gebleven. 24. Nu wenschte ik wel dat mijne nakomelingen daar op letten, in hoeverre Gôsa waarheid sprak. — Toen onze landen weder te begaan waren, kwamen er benden arme Saxmannen en vrouwen naar de oorden van Staveren en het Alderga, om gouden en andere sieraden te zoeken uit de drassige bodem. Doch de zeelieden wilden hen niet toelaten. Toen gingen zij de ledige dorpen bewonen te West Flyland, om hun lijf te behouden. Nu wil ik schrijven hoe de Geertmannen  

They wished to obtain the opinion of the folk-mother upon the subject. 20. She asked them, "Can you send them all back to their country? If so, then lose no time, or they will find no relatives alive." 21. They said, "No." 22. Gosa replied, "They have eaten your bread and salt; they have placed themselves entirely under your protection. You must consult your own hearts. But I will give you one piece of advice. Keep them till you are able to send them back, but keep them outside your burghs. Watch over their morals, and educate them as if they were Frya’s sons. Their women are the strongest here. Their blood will disappear like smoke, till at last nothing but Frya’s blood will remain in their descendants." 23. So they remained here. 24. Now, I should wish that my descendants should observe in how far Gosa spoke the truth. When our land began to recover, there came troops of poor Saxmannar men and women to the neighbourhoods of Staveren and Alderga, to search for gold and other treasures in the swampy lands. But the navigators would not permit it, so they went and settled in the empty villages of the Westflyland in order to preserve their lives. Chapter II: now I will relate how the Gertmannar

162
[BOEK VAN FRETHORIK EN WILJOW MS PAG. 119]

and fêlo Hêlênja folgar tobek kêmon . 1. Twa jêr nêi thaet Gosa Moder wrde , kêm er en flâte to thet Flymara in fala . Thet folk hropte ho . n . sêen . Hja foron til Stavere , thêr hropton hja jeta rêis . Tha fôna wêron an top aend thes nachtes skâton hja barnpila anda loft . Thâ dêirêd wêre rojadon svme mith en snâke to thêre hava in . Hja hropton wither ho . n . sêen . 2. Thâ hja landa hipte‑n jong kerdel wal vp . In sina handa hêdi‑n skild , thêrvp was braed aend salt lêid . Afterdam kêm en grêva* , hi sêide 3. wi kvmath fona [164] fere Krêkalandum wêi , vmb vsa sêd to warjande , nw winstath wi i skolde alsa mild wêsa vs alsa fül lând to jêvane thaet wi thêrvp müge hêma . 4. Hi telade‑n êle skêdnese thêr ik aefter bêtre skryva wil . 5. Tha grêva* niston navt hwat to dvande , hja sandon bodon allerwêikes , âk to my . Ik gvng to aend sêide : nw wi‑n Moder haeve agon wi hjra rêd to frêjande . 6. Ik selva gvng mitha . Thju Moder , thêr ella wiste , sêide , 7. lêt hja kvme , sâ mügon hja vs lând helpa bihalda : men lêt hjam navt vp êne stêd ne bilyva , til thju hja navt waldich ne wrde ovir vs . 8. Wi dêdon as hju sêid hêde . That wêre êl nêi hjra hêi . Fryso reste mith sinâ ljudum to Stavere , that hja wither

en vele volgelingen van Helenia terug kwamen. 1. Twee jaren nadat Gôsa moeder werd, kwam er eene vloot het Flymeer in vallen. Het volk riep ho.n.sêen. (welk een zegen!) Zij voeren naar Staveren, daar riepen zij nog eenmaal. De banieren waren in top en des nachts schoten zij brandpijlen in de lucht. Toen het dageraad was, roeiden sommigen met eene snik de haven in, zij riepen weder hoezee. 2. Toen zij landden, wipte een jong kerel op den wal. In zijne handen had hij een schild, daarop was brood en zout gelegd. Na hem kwam een grijze*; hij zeide 3. wij komen van [165] de verre Krekalanden weg, om onze zeden te bewaren. Nu wenschten wij, dat gij zoo vriendelijk zoudt wezen, om ons zoo veel land te geven, dat wij daarop mogen wonen. 4. Hij vertelde eene heele geschiedenis, die ik hierna beter beschijven wil. 5. De grijzen [*] wisten niet wat te doen, zij zonden boden allerwege, ook tot mij. Ik ging heen en zeide: nu wij eene Moeder hebben, behooren wij haar raad te vragen. 6. Ik zelf ging mede. De Moeder, die alles reeds wist, zeide: 7. laat hen komen, zoo mogen zij ons land helpen behouden: maar laat hen niet op ééne plek blijven, opdat zij niet machtig worden over ons. 8. Wij deden gelijk zij gezegd had. Dat was heel naar hun zin. Fryso bleef met zijne lieden te Staveren, dat zij weder

and many followers of Hellenia came back - 1. Two years after Gosa became the folk-mother there arrived a fleet at Flymar. The people shouted, "Huzza!" They sailed to Staveren, where they shouted again. Their flags were hoisted, and at night they shot lighted arrows into the air. At daylight some of them rowed into the harbour in a boat, shouting again, "Huzza!" 2. When they landed a young fellow jumped upon the rampart. In his hand he held a shield on which bread and salt were laid. After him came a grey-headed man*, who said: 3. "We come from the Fere Krekaland to preserve our customs. Now we wish you to be kind enough to give us as much land as will enable us to live." 4. He told a long story, which I will hereafter relate more fully. 5. The reeve [*] did not know what to do. They sent messengers all round, also to me. I went, and said, "Now that we have a folk-mother it behoves us to ask her advice." 6. I went with them myself. The folk-mother, who already knew it all, said: 7. "Let them come, they will help us to keep our lands, but do not let them remain in one place, that they may not become too powerful over us." 8. We did as she said, which was quite to their liking. Friso remained with his people at Staveren, which they

[BOEK VAN FRETHORIK EN WILJOW MS PAG. 134]  

min forma , Hâchgâna min ôthera , mine aldeste toghater hêth Adela , thju ôthera Frulik aend tha jongeste Nocht . Thâ‑k nêi tha Saxanamarka for , haev ik thrju boka hret . Thet bok thêra sanga , thêra tellinga , aend thet Hêlênja bok . 10. Ik skrif thit til thju maen navt thaenka ne mêi thaet hja fon Apollânja send ; ik haev thêr fül lêt vr had ând wil thus âk thju êre hae . Ak haev ik mâr dên , tha Gosa‑Makonta fallen is , hwames godhêd aend klârsjanhêd to en sprêkword is wrden , thâ ben ik allêna nêi Texland gvngen vmbe tha skrifta vr to skrivane , thêr hju aefter lêten heth , aend thâ tha lerste wille fonden is fon Frâna aend tha nêilêtne skrifta fon Adela jefta Hellênja , haev ik thaet jetta rêis dên . 11. Thit send tha skrifta Hellênjas . Ik set hjam fâr vppa vmbe thaet hja tha aldesta send . Caput V. Alle afta Fryas held . 1. In êra tida niston tha Slâvona folkar nawet fon fryhêd . Lik oxa wrdon hja vnder et juk brocht . In irthas wand wrdon hja jâgath vmbe mêtal to delvane aend ut‑a herde bergum moston hja hûsa hâwa to forst aend presterums hêm . Bi al hwat hja dêdon , thêr  


mijn oudste, Hachgana mijn tweede, mijne oudste dochter heet Adela, de tweede Frulik en de jongste Nocht. Toen ik naar de Saksenmarken voer, heb ik drie boeken gered, het boek der zangen, het boek der verhalen en het Helenia boek. 10. Ik schrijf dit, opdat men niet moge denken, dat zij van Apollania zijn; ik heb daar Veel verdriet over gehad, nu wil ik dus de eere ook hebben. Ook heb ik meer gedaan; toen Gôsa-Makonta gestorven is, wier goedheid en helderziendheid tot een spreekwoord geworden is, toen ben ik alleen naar Texland gegaan, om de schriften over te schrijven, die zij nagelaten had, en toen de laatste wil gevonden is van Frana, en de nagelaten schriften van Dela of Hellenia heb ik dat nog eens gedaan. 11. Dit zijn de schriften van Hellenia. Ik heb ze voorop geplaatst, omdat zij de alleroudsten zijn. Hoofdstuk V. Alle echte Friesen heil! 1. In oude tijden wisten de Slavonische volken niet van vrijheid. Gelijk ossen werden zij onder het juk gebracht. Zij werden in de ingewanden der aarde gejaagd om metaal te delven, en uit de harde bergen moesten zij huizen bouwen, tot woningen voor vorsten en priesters. Bij alles wat zij deden, [daar]  

my eldest son, Hachgana my second. My eldest daughter is called Adela, my second Frulik, and my youngest Nocht. When I went to Saxanamark I preserved three books - The Book of Songs, The Book of Narratives, and The Hellenia Book. 10. I write this in order that people may not think they were by Apollonia. I have a good deal of annoyance about this, and therefore now wish to have the honour of it. I also did more. When Gosa Makonta died, whose goodness and clear-sightedness have become a proverb, I went alone to Texland to copy the writings that she had left; and when the last will of Frana was found, and the writings left by Adela or Hellenia, I did that again. 11. These are the writings of Hellenia. I have put them first because they are the oldest. Chapter V: Hail to all true Children of Frya! 1. In olden times, the slave people knew nothing of liberty. They were brought under the yoke like oxen. They were driven into the bowels of Irtha to dig metals, and had to build houses of stone as dwelling places for princes and priests. Of all that they did

Edited by Knul, 14 October 2011 - 11:58 PM.

[Abramelin]

So, according to you, we all should follow the OLB, word for word?

The OLB says this or that, and that's it?

Don't you have one single skeptical bone left in your body?

Jesus.

You love to post tomes no one ever will read, but yes: I read that bolded line about Gosa Makonta.

And no, I don't think that 'proverb' has anything to do with her name.

I tried to connect her name with YOUR Ernest Staderman.

"MAINZ" is the word.

.





.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 October 2011 - 02:08 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 07 September 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

I hope you have a peek now and then, Otharus, because I did find something about the name "Ott":

Otto, Ottens, Otte(n), Hoete, Otté, Ote, Oth(e), Ott, Ots, Ottes(en), Ottosen

Patronymic to the Germanic first name Otto, it is derived from the Germanic ot.

http://home.scarlet....loet/FpageO.htm

A delayed thank you for this, Abe.

Ottens, Ots, Ottes(en) and Ottosen are patronyms, the others are not.
But, most importantly, the names are indeed derived from the Germanic "ot".

Quote

ot: wealth, inheritance, see od

od, ot, ôd, oda, odâl, odo, odela, otto, ôthal: paternal heritage, property, wealth, custodian

http://home.scarlet....rvloet/GERM.htm[/i]

So the name Ott does have a meaning, and it's based on the Germanic 'ot'/'otto'.

But it also doesn't make a lot of sense in the context in which it is used in the OLB.

The meanings "wealth" and "inheritance" are based on translations of certain texts that have survived.
I would like to know which texts they are and if other (better?) translations are possible.
It's not likely that these were the original meaning of such a short word.
The original must have been somthing more primal.

With the different translations of OLB's "OD" we saw how much depends on who the translator is, and even the same translator can change his mind later.

Ottema (1872): hatred ("haat")
Jensma (1992): phallic object ("spits")
Jensma (2006): bliss ("gelukzaligheid")

Quote

That's why I think 'od' must be seen in the meaning Reichenbach gave to it in 1845: vital energy or life force. .... and that would mean someone used that recent definition for 'od' in his creation of the OLB.

If the OLB was created after 1845 you would probably be right, but I would argue that Von Reichenbach chose the perfect word for his life force theory.

Remember the old-Nordic meaning of Od: spirit.

"Spirit" is virtually synonymous to "life force" (in my opinion).

Edited by Otharus, 15 October 2011 - 09:44 AM.