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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#7216    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:53 PM

Anyone still wondering about the Middel Sea?

Here is the Frisian one, and look at those nice "Herculis Columnae" at its entrance:

Posted Image

Another, older name is used for the Frisian Middel Sea: Burdo/Burdinus/Bidurgus : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelzee

The island I have been talking about, Wexalia, did not exist yet: it started as a sandbank around 800 AD north of the Middel Sea, got that name, then later on attached itself to a larger island in the west and together they were called "Ter Schelling / Terschelling" from then on.


SOURCE:

Schotanus atlas of 1664 / 47 very detailed maps of Friesland

The Netherlands in prehistory:
http://www2.tresoar....3&zveld=&volg=1




.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 November 2011 - 06:01 PM.


#7217    Otharus

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:06 PM

 Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

Jensma
1. denies that Cornelis over de Linden did not understand the manuscript as he wrote to Verwijs,
2. denies that Leendert over de Linden stated that his father Cornelis over de Linden did not write the OLB,
3. denies the role of Ernest Stadermann,
4. denies that Verwijs called the OLB a hoax in a letter to Johan Winkler,
5. denies that Haverschmidt wrote to Leendert over the Linden, that he did not participate and even didn't know Cornelis over de Linden.

If one denies, what people have written, one can proof anything.

Please reconsider the witness reports of:
(See quote below.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs in 1876 about 1831.
2. Two schoolteachers in a notary statement, about 1848.
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser, about 1854.
4. Jacob Munnik about 1845.
5. Schoolmaster M.K. de Jong, about ca. 1837.
6. Hein Kofman and his mother Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, about 1845.

The statements from these people suggest or confirm the existence of the manuscript in the Over de Linden family, long before it would have been created according to the hoax theories.

My question to the forum and specially to Knul is: how can these witness reports be explained?

 Otharus, on 12 May 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

Yes, there are several witness reports that indicate that in the 30's and 40's of the 19th century, the manuscript existed already and/or that the Over de Lindens believed that they stemmed from an ancient noble Frisian family.

[...]
1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".

2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".

3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".

[...]
5. New information
Translated from Molenaar (1949), a quote from Jacob Munnik, who was married to a pre-marital daughter of Cornelis Over de Linden's first wife (which makes him Cornelis' step-son-in-law.)

"In 1845 (a year before my marriage), C. Over de Linden, bookbinder Stadermann and me went on a little tour together (to Enkhuizen). We visited an old skipper, where Over de Linden's mother was a housekeeper. C.O.L. spoke with his mother and the old man in private and when we had left Enkhuizen, he said: "It's a bloody shame; the old one has an old book that belongs to us and he does not want to hand it over. It proves that our family is old." He also spoke about forested areas, like royal domains with many Linden-trees etcetra. "But it is old-Frisian; that's the bloody problem!", Cornelis had said.
For a few years he has been complaining about it (from 1845-1847), but in the meantime he had started to learn the old-Frisian language."


I agree with author Molenaar that Munnik probably had confused the old skipper with Hendrik Reuvers, the husband of aunt Aafje, whom they will also have visited.

6. More new information
Again from Molenaar (1949), who writes about an article in the Friesche Courant of 30-4-1877, written by M.K. de Jong, schoolmaster in the village Kooten. He states that a trustworthy fellow villager had declared that "about 40 years ago" (ca. 1837) "his uncle Leendert Over de Linden had told him that there were some very old manuscripts kept by the Over de Linden family."

7. Relevant to know is also that Hein Kofman (1853-1933), who was said to have heard that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from the house of his parents, lived all his life in the house of his parents Rijkent Kofman and Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878), which had also been the house of his grandparents Hendrik Reuvers and Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) as well as the house of Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) and IJfje Schols. This means that since the death of Andries Over de Linden in 1820, the manuscript has stayed in the same house until Cornelis took it to Den Helder in 1848.

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers would have stated that "without doubt the manuscript had been kept here [in her house] in a corner, covered with dust." She did not remember how long it had stayed there and when it had been moved to Den Helder.



#7218    Knul

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:09 PM

The OLB obviously does not discern between Lybia and Lydia, both belonged to the reign of Lyda (black people). In Northern Africa, Egypt, Crete and the Middle East man are often depicted as black and woman as white.

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#7219    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:38 PM

Otharus, all these sources are members of the Over de Linden family.

And those who are not members of the family are close acquaintances or friends of the family.

I do wonder, however, who that grandson was who is supposed to have said that his grandfather and the 'two learned doctors' were roaring with laughter when they were discussing the text that COL had wrought during the day.


#7220    Otharus

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:40 PM

 Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Otharus, all these sources are members of the Over de Linden family.

And those who are not members of the family are close acquaintances or friends of the family.
So you think they were all lying?


#7221    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:50 PM

 Otharus, on 03 November 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

So you think they were all lying?

Maybe COL himself started the lie, and the lie was taken over by those who believed him.

He could have been busy on some text for many years but didn't get things quite right, only to get help later on by people more informed in whatever topic he wasn't.

I could once have shown you the weird and old-ish scripts I fabricated during boring hours in highschool. One time I even used such a script to translate a line in some self-made old 'language' using words from a book called "Der Turm von Babel" (an old German book about the original/oldest language, written by a Walder or Wadler).

+++

EDIT:

It's from Arnold Wadler, and here it is:

http://www.amazon.de...n/dp/3921695384

Lol, I still have the book, and just now I peaked inside it again, after I removed an inch of dust.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 November 2011 - 07:01 PM.


#7222    Otharus

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:14 PM

 Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

And those who are not members of the family are close acquaintances or friends of the family.
Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs, the two other schoolteachers, naval officer W.M. Visser and schoolmaster M.K. de Jong were not family nor known to be close acquaintances.

Did you have a source for that?

Jacob Munnik, Hein Kofman and Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers were family, but the Kofmans were not on Cornelis' side; Hein Kofman claimed that Cornelis had stolen the manuscript from his parents.

Do you have an explanation for that?

Edited by Otharus, 03 November 2011 - 07:14 PM.


#7223    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:31 PM

Menno, I think you'll gonna like this...

Look at the map (Schotanus) I posted of the Middelzee with those Herculis Columnae; you will notice a "Britzenburg" on it's east coast.


Britzenburg:

http://books.google....zenburg&f=false


OK, open the link to this book, and scroll down a bit, and read about a "Menno Coehoorn".


Who was this guy?

Er is veel goeds en waars in die vergelijking tusschen Vauban en Coehoorn; ‘Coehorn,’ noemt hem de Amerikaansche schrijver, die ons daarbij mededeelt, dat de voornaam ‘Menno’ somtijds veranderd wordt in ‘Minno,’ of ook in ‘Memnon’, alsof hij van den Fries een Egyptenaar wil maken; dat de naam verschillend geschreven wordt: ‘Coehorn’, of ‘Koehorn’, of ‘Koehoorn’, maar dat de algemeen aangenomene spelling is ‘Cohorn’.

http://www.dbnl.org/...101_01_0002.php

I am not going to translate this (more to come) but the important thing is this remark: "sometimes he (= not Menno himself) changed his first name into Minno or also into Memnon, as though he wanted to make an Egyptian out of this Frisian"


OK, next:

Coehorn, Or Cohorn, Menno Van, baron, a Dutch general and engineer, born in Friesland in 1641 (according to some in 1632), died at the Hague, March 17, 1704. A captain at the age of 16, he distinguished himself at the siege of Maestricht, and at the battles of Senef, Cas-sel, St. Denis, and Fleurus. During the intervals of active duty he devoted much attention to the subject of fortification, with the view of equalizing the chances between besiegers and besieged, the new system of his contemporary Vauban having given great advantages to the latter. While a young man he gained a name as an engineer, and by the time he had reached middle life was recognized as the best officer of that arm in the Dutch service. The prince of Orange promised him a colonelcy, but as he was remiss in fulfilling the pledge, Coehorn retired in disgust, with the intention of offering his services to the French. His wife and eight children, however, were arrested by order of the prince as hostages for his return, which quickly brought him back, when he received the promised rank, and was afterward appointed successively general of artillery, director general of fortifications, and governor of Flanders. His whole life was spent in connection with the defences of the Low Countries. At the siege of Grave, in 1674, he invented and for the first time made use of the small mortars called cohorns, for throwing grenades, and in the succeeding year elicited the applause of Vauban by successfully crossing the Maas, and carrying a bastion which was considered as protected by the river.

After the peace of Nimeguen (1678) he was employed in strengthening various already strong places. Nime-guen, Breda, Bergen-op-Zoom, and other fortresses, attest the value of his system. The last named place he considered his masterpiece, but it was taken after a long siege in 1747 by Marshal de Lowendal. During the campaigns from 1683 to 1691 he was in active service. The siege of Namur in 1692 gave him an opportunity to test his system against that of Vauban, for these two great engineers were there opposed to each other, Coehorn in defending a work which he had constructed to protect the citadel, and Vauban in attempting to reduce it. Coehorn made an obstinate defence, but, being dangerously wounded, was compelled to surrender to his rival. He was afterward engaged at the attacks on Trarbach, Limburg, and Liege, and in 1695 aided in retaking Namur. In the war of the Spanish succession he besieged successively Venloo, Stephensworth, Roeremond, and Liege; and in 1703 he took Bonn, on the Rhine, after three days' cannonade of heavy artillery aided by a fire of grenades from 500 cohorns.

Next he passed into Flanders, where he gained several successes over the French, and subsequently directed the siege of Huy. This was his last service, for he died soon afterward of apoplexy, while waiting a conference with the duke of Marlborough on the plan of a new campaign. Coehorn's greatest work, Nieuwe Vestingbouw (fol., Leeuwarden, 1685), was translated into several foreign languages. His plans are mostly adapted to the Dutch fortresses, or to those which are similarly situated on ground but a few feet above water level. Wherever it was practicable, he encircled his works with two ditches; the outermost full of water, the inner dry, and usually of the width of about 125 ft., serving as a place d'armes for the besieged, and in some cases for detachments of cavalry. The theory of his system, both of attack and defence, was the superiority of a combined mass over isolated fire. Professionally, Coehorn was accused of wasteful expenditure of life, in which respect he contrasted unfavorably with Vauban, who was sparing of men. He refused inducements offered by several foreign governments. Charles II. of England knighted him.

He was buried at Wijkel, near Sneek, in Friesland, and a monument was dedicated there to his memory; His biography was written by his son Theodorus (new ed., by Sypestion, 1860). For his system of fortifications, see Zastrow, Geschichte der Befestigung (3d ed., 1854).


http://chestofbooks....-Menno-Van.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wijckel
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wijckel

Gaasterland (look for Wijckel): http://www2.tresoar....eld=Gaasterland


Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he had the happiness to die at Lindahem.

+++++++++++


EDIT:

I admit, this one may be a bit too farfetched, but at least I found a famous Frisian Menno/Minno.

Btw: his grave is in Wijckel, Friesland, and it's near an ancient hill covered with linden-trees (you can see it on the old map of Gaasteren I posted a link to; it looks a bit like a picture of a miniature 'Stonehenge' (zoom in):

http://www2.tresoar....eld=Gaasterland



.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 November 2011 - 08:10 PM.


#7224    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:29 PM

 Otharus, on 03 November 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs, the two other schoolteachers, naval officer W.M. Visser and schoolmaster M.K. de Jong were not family nor known to be close acquaintances.

Did you have a source for that?

Jacob Munnik, Hein Kofman and Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers were family, but the Kofmans were not on Cornelis' side; Hein Kofman claimed that Cornelis had stolen the manuscript from his parents.

Do you have an explanation for that?

I have another question: could you give us the sources of this info (in Dutch)?

Not that I don't trust you, but maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of it.


#7225    Knul

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:42 PM

 Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

Anyone still wondering about the Middel Sea?

Here is the Frisian one, and look at those nice "Herculis Columnae" at its entrance:

Posted Image

Another, older name is used for the Frisian Middel Sea: Burdo/Burdinus/Bidurgus : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelzee

The island I have been talking about, Wexalia, did not exist yet: it started as a sandbank around 800 AD north of the Middel Sea, got that name, then later on attached itself to a larger island in the west and together they were called "Ter Schelling / Terschelling" from then on.


SOURCE:

Schotanus atlas of 1664 / 47 very detailed maps of Friesland

The Netherlands in prehistory:
http://www2.tresoar....3&zveld=&volg=1




.


Did you see, who owned this map ? J.H. Halbertsma (see bottom of map). The map could certainly be a source of information and inspiration for J.H. Halbertsma.

Edited by Knul, 03 November 2011 - 08:43 PM.


#7226    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:54 PM

 Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

Did you see, who owned this map ? J.H. Halbertsma (see bottom of map). The map could certainly be a source of information and inspiration for J.H. Halbertsma.

LOL, no, I didn't see that !!

I was too much focussed on the map itself.

After all this time my left eye looks like an -O-, my right eye like an -L- and my ears start growing together to form a -B-.


#7227    Otharus

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:27 PM

 Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

I have another question: could you give us the sources of this info (in Dutch)?

Not that I don't trust you, but maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of it.
My sources are "De Gemaskerde God" by Jensma and "Wie heeft het OLB geschreven?" by Beckering Vinkers.

I quoted and translated extensively in earlier posts.

This might be a good one to start with:
(click on the arrow in the left upper corner to go to the post)

 Otharus, on 19 April 2011 - 07:02 AM, said:

Some first attempts towards a new OLB theory

Earlier we have read about Cornelis Over de Linden's version of the story of how he got the OLB manuscript from his aunt Aafje in Enkhuizen.

Let's first have a look at three other versions by other people.

(Translated from DGG p.243)
[...]



#7228    Knul

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:51 PM

 Otharus, on 03 November 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Please reconsider the witness reports of:
(See quote below.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs in 1876 about 1831.
2. Two schoolteachers in a notary statement, about 1848.
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser, about 1854.
4. Jacob Munnik about 1845.
5. Schoolmaster M.K. de Jong, about ca. 1837.
6. Hein Kofman and his mother Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, about 1845.

The statements from these people suggest or confirm the existence of the manuscript in the Over de Linden family, long before it would have been created according to the hoax theories.

My question to the forum and specially to Knul is: how can these witness reports be explained?

Of course I know the witness reports. They are all on my website www. roodinbook.nl I have even handed you the scans. Unfortunately none of the witnesses have actually seen the book and most witness reports date 20-30 years later, when the book had come into publicity.  Haverschmidt was for a short period of time minister in den Helder and after that in Schiedam, but says that he didn't know Cornelis over de Linden, Verwijs lived in Deventer, Leeuwarden and Leiden and was a very busy man. He traveled to Den Helder only once on his way to Leiden. His son Leendert should be an important witness, but he said, that Cornelis over de Linden did not write the OLB. See Gallee: http://www.dbnl.org/...01_01_0001.php. For me it is more interesting, to find out, how the manuscript by Halbertsma came in Enkhuizen.


#7229    Abramelin

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

 Otharus, on 03 November 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

My sources are "De Gemaskerde God" by Jensma and "Wie heeft het OLB geschreven?" by Beckering Vinkers.

I quoted and translated extensively in earlier posts.

This might be a good one to start with:
(click on the arrow in the left upper corner to go to the post)

Maybe my eyes are getting tired as well as my brains (and yes, I clicked on the arrow to go to your old post), but all I read is "COL said this, and COL said that, and someone knew COL had claimed this and that".

COL (Cornelis Over de Linden) appears to be the source of everything.

But let me look into it another day.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 November 2011 - 09:59 PM.


#7230    Otharus

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:15 PM

 Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

Of course I know the witness reports. [...]
You didn't answer the question.
How do they fit into your theory?
Were all the witnesses lying?