Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 5 votes

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
11638 replies to this topic

#7591    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:25 AM

I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

View PostAlewyn, on 16 November 2011 - 05:34 AM, said:

Let me answer my own question as to why the Oera Linda Book does not refer to Persia or the Persians. Instead the book refers to the “Ira”

Original Fries (Tresoar)
Biwesta Pangab ther sind tha Ira ieftha wranga,…”
and
Therthrvch havon wi tha Ira and tha othera kenna lerth. Tha Ira ne sind nene ira mar goda minska ther nena bildon to leta nach onbidda…”

English
To the west of the Pangab are the Ira, or Wranga, …”

In that way we came to know the Ira and other people. The Ira are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images…”

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia....Sassanid_Empire

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia”
“The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term "aryān" in reference to Iranians.”

However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians
.”

So you see, before 1935, Iran (“the land of the Ira”) was known throughout the Western world as “Persia”. Yet, the OLB does not talk about the Persians, but rather about the Ira; the only West European source which called them by their ancient name.  This also tells us that the name Ira or Iran goes back to before 300 BC and most likely to before 1500 BC when the Gertmanne arrived in the Punjab. This is much further back than the Sassanid Empire and even before the Greeks’ “Persia”.

To me this is further evidence that the OLB is authentic, but I suppose Abe will again say this was known in 19th century Holland.



#7592    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,159 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008

Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:25 AM

Quote

It still matches the OLB's description. How do you explain this?

Better question is how do you explain the fact that the Israelites, even as a tribe, are attested c.1208 BC while the earliest for anything like Frisians in the area, via language (Proto-Germanic), only dates to c.750 BC at the earliest? Making the Israelites the earliest of the two and Canaanite in origin, NOT Mesopotamian. NEITHER Israel or Frisians bears evidence of extending back to the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7593    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:36 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 October 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

View PostOtharus, on 16 October 2011 - 08:26 AM, said:

Updated top 10

01 03 Moldova
02 02 Netherlands
03 01 United States
04 04 Germany
05 05 Russia
06 07 Ukraine
07 06 Latvia
08 08 France
09 09 United Kingdom
10 -- Iran


... Moldova?!

Iran??
Now you know why  :lol:


#7594    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,159 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008

Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:38 AM

Quote

I see that you, true to form, conveniently ignore the scientific evidence I gave to Abramelin re a global disaster in c. 2200 BC.

I'm not ignoring it. Some of it we've already been over before and the claims ARE NOT as you've presented them in the past. But in ALL cases, not a one of them makes the claim that something happened in 2193/2194, specifically. This has been your downfall for the last 507 pages. So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7595    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,073 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:52 AM

I actually propose an origin in or near Poland for the onset of a warrior class people who had metal tools and weapons, a thunder God and shamanistic religion, chariots and IE language and this is the origin of it's spread. All along the Baltic coast, to at least Lithuania, were Fryans.

R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade is the one most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. Most discussions purportedly of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the dominant R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade. Data so far collected indicates that there two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around North India, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine. The historical and prehistoric possible reasons for this are the subject of on-going discussion and attention amongst population geneticists and genetic genealogists, and are considered to be of potential interest to linguists and archaeologists also. Recent findings indicate that R1a's origin is likely to be in South Asia, but probably at a date earlier than the expansion of the Indo-Iranian language family.

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one C haplogroup (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.

90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.

A 2004 study also established that during the Bronze Age/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the 13th-7th century BCE, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.

http://en.wikipedia....o-Indo-Iranians

The Indo-Iranians and their expansion are strongly associated with the Proto-Indo-European invention of the chariot. It is assumed that this expansion went into from the Proto-Indo-European homeland north of the Caspian sea south to the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Iranian plateau, and Northern India. They also expanded into Mesopotamia and Syria and introduced the horse and chariot culture to this part of the world. Sumerian texts from EDIIIb Girsu (2500-2350 BC) already mention the 'chariot' (gigir) and Ur III texts (2150-2000 BC) mention the horse (anshe-zi-zi).


Now,
The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon—four wheels, two axles), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500–3350 BCE clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot


POLE LAND: an eagle emblem, poles, mermaids and amber, the vistula, earliest chariots, shamanism in the east of Poland into Ukraine -the whole bit.

apollo - a pol - from Hyperborea.  :w00t:

Celtic, Germanic and Baltic tribes inhabited various parts of Poland. Eventually, in the Middle Ages, the area came to be dominated by Slavic tribes and finally became home to a number of West Slavic Polish tribes that formed small states in the region, beginning in the 8th century.


Contacts with early Bronze Age Mediterranean and even further afield...
The Bronze Age in Poland, as well as elsewhere in central Europe, begins with the innovative Unetice culture, in existence in Silesia and a part of Greater Poland during the first period of this era, that is from before 2200 to 1600 BC. This settled agricultural society's origins consisted of the conservative traditions inherited from the Corded Ware populations and dynamic elements of the Bell-Beaker people. Significantly, the Unetice people cultivated contacts with the highly developed cultures of the Carpathian Basin, through whom they had trade links with the cultures of early Greece. Their culture also echoed inspiring influence coming all the way from the most highly developed at that time civilizations of the Middle East.

Characteristic of the Unetice societies was greater general affluence and developed social stratification, compared with Late Neolithic cultures. Objects made of bronze, often of luxurious or prestigious nature, were in high demand as symbols of power and importance and are typically found in the graves of "princes". Fourteen such burial sites, circular mounds of earth heaped up on top of wooden, clay and stone structures, some as large as 30 meters in diameter, were found in Łęki Małe near Grodzisk Wielkopolski, erected 2000–1800 BC, suggesting the existence of a local dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia....land_(until_966)

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#7596    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:01 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 09:25 AM, said:

Better question is how do you explain the fact that the Israelites, even as a tribe, are attested c.1208 BC while the earliest for anything like Frisians in the area, via language (Proto-Germanic), only dates to c.750 BC at the earliest?
Simple.

Because the number of accepted sources of 'Proto-Germanic' is more limited.

Besides, OLB is a 13th century copy of a collection of texts that was first compiled in the 6th century BC (with parts added later up until ca. 50 BC).

The first compilers of the book apparently had access to older sources (in their language), but we won't know what their language had been in the times described by their sources (like 2200 BC). Only that in 600 BC they had written sources about those times. How much of their sources at that time was fiction and how much was fact we won't know exactly, but if parts of it agree with other ancient sources and with archaeological and/or geological finds, that is enough reason to take it seriously.


#7597    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:13 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?
This is also something I have a problem with accepting, specially in the sub-title of Alewyn's book: "The course of Eurasia after the night of Wednesday 21 October 2193 BC".

This level of specificity causes some resistance in me.

I'd say ca. 2200 BC or even ca. 2000 BC.

To come to an agreement (for now) that OLB might possibly be authentic (i.e. not a hoax) would already be a major step forward, as the path for scholars to start taking it seriously would finally be opened.


#7598    Knul

Knul

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts
  • Joined:08 May 2011

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:35 AM

View PostOtharus, on 16 November 2011 - 09:25 AM, said:

I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

It just proofs, that the OLB has been written after 1935.

s. http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=15966 (National Geographic World Map 1935). [Iran (formerly Persia)]

s. http://maps.national...d-map-1922.html (National Geographic World Map 1922). [Persia]

Edited by Knul, 16 November 2011 - 11:04 AM.


#7599    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,073 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:49 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

I'm not ignoring it. Some of it we've already been over before and the claims ARE NOT as you've presented them in the past. But in ALL cases, not a one of them makes the claim that something happened in 2193/2194, specifically. This has been your downfall for the last 507 pages. So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

cormac
Where's the evidence of the beginning of Christian Reckoning and that it co-incides exactly with 2193BC when you count back from the dates the actual parts of the manuscript were written before the onset of Christian Reckoning, as only the last 2 short later entries are dated.

Also, most dates are said to be around 2200BC, I don't think a give or take date range of 10 years is any big deal anyway. Nor are any specific dates exactly given, although the end of the Akkadian Empire is specifically dated to 2193BC.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#7600    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:08 AM

View PostKnul, on 16 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

It just proofs, that the OLB has been written after 1935.
EUREKA!

Mystery explained.

We can close the thread now.

Well done, Knul!

:lol:


#7601    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:09 AM

This is what I asked:

"I'd like to add: where is the geological proof lands rose up or submerged around that time? All these volcanoes erupting? Catastrophic floods? Fires burning for years? And all that in Europe, or around the North Sea or the Atlantic? In 2194 BC?"

And this is your answer:


View PostAlewyn, on 16 November 2011 - 08:00 AM, said:

You want proof? Try this:

China
The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.
The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.
The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world
.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean
Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others,  in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain
Francisco Ruiz  from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka
Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).


Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt
Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity


In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands
Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa
(Mentioned earlier)
The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.
The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.
The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.


In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?

The only countries relevant to the OLB in your list are Spain and the Netherlands.

What you posted about what happened in Delfzijl I already asnwered long ago: the deposit of clay and peat happened gradually, it certainly did not happen because of some sort of tsunami or whatever.

And although I cannot find that post where I showed you the date for the climatic change of 2200 BC had been corrected to 2350 BC, I will do my best to find it again. I think it had something to do with a professor called "Weiss".


#7602    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:21 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 16 November 2011 - 05:34 AM, said:

Let me answer my own question as to why the Oera Linda Book does not refer to Persia or the Persians. Instead the book refers to the “Ira”

Original Fries (Tresoar)
Biwesta Pangab ther sind tha Ira ieftha wranga,…”
and
Therthrvch havon wi tha Ira and tha othera kenna lerth. Tha Ira ne sind nene ira mar goda minska ther nena bildon to leta nach onbidda…”

English
To the west of the Pangab are the Ira, or Wranga, …”

In that way we came to know the Ira and other people. The Ira are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images…”

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia....Sassanid_Empire

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia”
“The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term "aryān" in reference to Iranians.”

However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians
.”

So you see, before 1935, Iran (“the land of the Ira”) was known throughout the Western world as “Persia”. Yet, the OLB does not talk about the Persians, but rather about the Ira; the only West European source which called them by their ancient name.  This also tells us that the name Ira or Iran goes back to before 300 BC and most likely to before 1500 BC when the Gertmanne arrived in the Punjab. This is much further back than the Sassanid Empire and even before the Greeks’ “Persia”.

To me this is further evidence that the OLB is authentic, but I suppose Abe will again say this was known in 19th century Holland.

The OLB never talks about "Persia" or "Iran": it only mentions the people living there by their own native name.

Which is kind of a logical thing to do: historians will have known the natives called themselves Ira or Arya (from which came the word Aryan).

The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.

http://en.wikipedia....Sassanid_Empire

All you found out was that after 1935 Persia OFFICIALLY became known as Iran.

So I don't see why some of you are jumping up and down of joy.


#7603    Knul

Knul

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts
  • Joined:08 May 2011

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:23 AM

View PostOtharus, on 16 November 2011 - 10:13 AM, said:

This is also something I have a problem with accepting, specially in the sub-title of Alewyn's book: "The course of Eurasia after the night of Wednesday 21 October 2193 BC".

This level of specificity causes some resistance in me.

I'd say ca. 2200 BC or even ca. 2000 BC.

To come to an agreement (for now) that OLB might possibly be authentic (i.e. not a hoax) would already be a major step forward, as the path for scholars to start taking it seriously would finally be opened.

It has been widely accepted, that the OLB is a hoax. That is why scholars don't want to deal with the OLB. You refuse to read sources like Letterkundige Naoogst to convince yourself.


#7604    Knul

Knul

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,045 posts
  • Joined:08 May 2011

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:25 AM

View PostOtharus, on 16 November 2011 - 09:25 AM, said:

I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

You may check the list of atlases owned by J.H. Halbertsma, which I communicated earlier.

Edited by Knul, 16 November 2011 - 11:28 AM.


#7605    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,180 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:31 AM

This is the post I was looking for:

View PostAbramelin, on 14 May 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

I found an interesting article, and a most interesting line.. "circa 2200 BC (now 2350 BC)




(2) THIRD MILLENNIUM BC CLIMATE CHANGE & OLD WORLD COLLAPSE

From: JOURNAL OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SCIENCE 25,2 (1998), pp. 185-86

Book Review

By Mike Baillie m.baillie@qub.ac.uk

Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse.
Dalfes, H.N., Kukla, G. and Weiss, H. (Eds) 1996
Springer-Verlag (Published in cooperation with NATO
Scientific Affairs Division), Berlin, Heidelberg, New York, Barcelona,
Budapest, Hong Kong, London, Milan, Paris, Santa Clara, Singapore,
Tokyo
ISBN 3-540-61892-9
xiv, 728 pages, 156 figures, 35 tables
price DM 398,-; öS 2905.40; sFr 347,-; £ 172.-

This volume represents a brave attempt to bring together the evidence
for an environmental event in the later third millennium BC.
Thirty-three papers attempt to assemble the evidence from various
natural records and from archaeology. Their success is inevitably
constrained by the one key factor critical in any such endeavour -
chronological resolution. Thus, as a preliminary to the review I feel
it is necessary to set the scene from a chronological standpoint.

The problem posed by Dalfes, Kukla and Weiss is an inherently
interesting one. At the time the papers were assembled Weiss and
Courty were of the opinion that somewhere around 2200 BC there had
been a truly catastrophic environmental event. There was also a lot of
evidence pointing to the centuries between, say, 2300 BC and 1900 BC
representing some sort of environmental downturn, with widely altered
precipitation patterns. So a major question could be couched as
follows.. Were the widespread effects in Asia, Africa and Eastern
Europe actually the result of a general decline over some centuries,
or were they the result of an initial catastrophic trigger event with
longer-term implications? This is a general problem in studies of the
past where dating resolution is poor and where it is impossible to
relate different strands of evidence in real time. It is well typified
by the "suck in and smear" effects suggested in Baillie (1991). These
contrary effects represent a serious impediment to understanding past
phenomena. Abrupt or "point" events tend to be smeared by radiocarbon
dating. Thus radiocarbon effectively conceals abrupt events. The
converse case is where precisely-dated events, e.g. abrupt
environmental downturns deduced from tree-rings, tend to "suck in"
proximate but poorly dated evidence. In such cases it is easy to
envisage the creation of false horizons.

The present volume could be viewed as an exposition on exactly these
concepts. However, it is also important to know that new evidence,
deduced since the volume was produced, has actually made these points
even more emphatically. It is known that an abrupt downturn in Irish
oaks at 2354-2345 BC (Baillie 1995) falls close to the Icelandic Hekla
4 tephra horizon dated to 2310+/-20 CalBC by the wiggle-matching of
high precision radiocarbon dates (Hall et al. 1994). Courty (1997) has
now revised the dating of the original c.2200 BC abrupt environmental
event seen at Tell Leilan, in Syria, to c.2350 BC! Thus this volume of
papers has now to be seen against the existence of what may well be a
very dramatic and widespread environmental downturn - a classic point
event - the nature of which is hinted at by the report of both tephra
and glass spherules at and around the destruction layer at Tell
Leilan.

Do the contributing authors succeed in convincing the reader of the
existence, and chronology, of the proposed environmental change(s)?
The contributions (and I will mention only a few) start with Hassan
covering the breakdown known as the First Intermediate Period in
Egypt, given as 2180-2134 BC, though these cannot be true calendrical
dates. Hassan discusses the issue of the Nile floods in the context of
lake levels in Africa and suffers immediately the problem of
attempting to handle traditional historical dates in Egypt and
radiocarbon chronologies in Africa. Elsewhere Butzer quantifies the
difficulties by pointing out that at Lake Turkana, even with 15
radiocarbon determinations the dating of an abrupt rise in level
around 2150-2050 BC has "a relatively course resolution of +/-100
years". Butzer questions the very idea of a global event and sees no
good evidence for an abrupt change to "greater aridity affecting the
Near East" between 2400-1900 BC.

These few lines nicely exemplify the difficulties. Are we looking at,
or for, an event starting at 2400 or 2350 or 2200 or 2180 BC? Butzer
with his "2400-1900 BCE" has broadened the debate to a full half
millennium - a time period so long that we could reasonably expect
some environmental changes to be recorded in most areas. Courty and
Weiss remind us that there are possibly related socio-economic
disturbances from Egypt, Palestine, the Indus and the Aegean, but of
course there is no good evidence to link these possibly-related
collapses chronologically. Virtually the same applies in the Aegean
handled by Manning. While traditionally there is an Aegean wave of
collapse around 2200 BC, the dating is poor. The Early Helladic II
civilization collapses just when it seems to be at its peak, but what
date is the collapse? Is it c.2350 BC, or c.2200 BC? Manning points
to a related episode of severe soil erosion, unfortunately dated by a
single radiocarbon determination, which calibrates to 2900-2350 CalBC,
but ends up concluding that whatever the date of the EHII collapse the
date of the start of the succeeding EHIII is "after c.2300-2200 BC
(again with no precision)".

Really this is the joy of the whole book. Whether looking at evidence
from the Indus collapse, from drought in Bohemia, from pollen
sequences in Turkey or the Near East or Italy or from varves in
Germany, just about everyone thinks they can see evidence for
environmental change somewhere in the late third millennium BCE.
No-one can specify whether its initiation is really abrupt, nor when
that initiation was. Courty and Weiss have set a series of hares
running with their apparently abrupt and catastrophic event at c2200
BC (now c2350 BC). Can anyone else catch up? Students can be set
endless projects to mine this book in search of the answer.

I cannot resist drawing attention to Harvey Weiss's concluding
remarks. Given their evidence for what appears to be a "blast from the
sky" at Tell Leilan, Weiss is put in the uncomfortable position of
being probably the first archaeologist to have to suggest an impact
from cometary debris in recent millennia. I have absolutely no
problems with that concept but Weiss does; he is torn between claiming
a "hit" and being cautious. He stakes his claim to immortality by
saying

The abrupt climate change at 2200 BC (now 2350 BC),
regardless of an improbable impact explanation,
situates hemispheric social collapse in a global,
but ultimately cosmic, context.

If Baillie (1998) ever sees print, Weiss is going to find strong
circumstantial support that he is probably correct on all counts.
With abrupt change in ancient records, previously obscured by poor
chronological control, more common than previously imagined.

Kukla presents a nice piece on the philosophical difficulty of
disproving events "it is more difficult to prove that something didn't
happen than that it did". This is much in keeping with the suck-in
effect, where loosely dated evidence may be drawn in to support an
event. It then becomes difficult to disprove the event as this would
require better dating of a range of poorly-dated phenomena. This
raises the question whether the act of postulating a significant event
circa 2200 BC (now 2350 BC) has actually created one? I don't
personally think it does. Sufficiently many of the 33 contributions
see evidence for environmental alteration in the later third
millennium BC that something has to have been going on. Their problem
is that in any period of three to four, to five, centuries there is
plenty of time for all sorts of environmental downturns in all sorts
of areas. The real question remains, is there any evidence for a
synchronous global, or even hemispheric, environmental event. Nothing
in the book currently proves that there was. However, the drawing
together of the several contributions provides the student with a mine
of relevant information. The book is a must for the library shelves of
any departments interested in environmental change or in the
archaeology of the third millennium BC or in systems collapse.

The book has typographical errors sprinkled throughout and several
papers clearly required more rigorous proof reading by the editors.
More damning in a volume of this kind is the lack of a consistent
convention on dates. This is particularly significant when the
intention is to see what happened in a tight period of a few centuries
some four millennia ago. Ideally all historical and
dendrochronological dates should have been AD and BC, or BCE. All
historical/archaeological dates older than 600 BC should have been
quoted with estimated errors; this would also apply to dates from
ice-cores and varve sequences. Raw radiocarbon ages should have been
presented as BP with quoted errors, while calibrated radiocarbon ages
should have been signalled as CalAD or CalBC and should have been
quoted with their calibrated 2-sigma ranges. Failure to enforce a
dating code means that the reader has to work hard to compare evidence
both within and between papers. None of these criticisms damage the
work as a whole.


http://abob.libs.uga...c/cc022398.html