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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#7951    Alewyn

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 10:53 AM

View PostKnul, on 25 November 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

Just explain to me, why Cornelis over de Linden came out with the OLB within weeks after the death of Ernest Stadermann, but does not explain that in his so-called testament for his grandson. Why did he keep silent about the first visit to Enkhuizen in 1845 ?
Simple: It was not relevant


#7952    Knul

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:04 AM

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true. s. http://www.rodinbook...lbbrieven.html.


#7953    Knul

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:06 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 25 November 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Simple: It was not relevant

It is very relevant indeed, because Cornelis over de Linden kept silent for 19 years and just after the death of Stadermann tried to get a translation. There is no better proof, that he only came out, when his complice - the witness of the forgery died.

Edited by Knul, 25 November 2011 - 11:09 AM.


#7954    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:20 AM

View PostKnul, on 25 November 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true. s. http://www.rodinbook...lbbrieven.html.

Menno, just a word of advice: when you post a link - any link - never put a period or comma right after it or the link won't work.

The link in your post doesn't work, but now it does:

http://www.rodinbook...olbbrieven.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 November 2011 - 11:24 AM.


#7955    Knul

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:21 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 25 November 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

It seems that I understand Dutch better than you do.
Please read again Cornelis over de Linden's essay (or "testament" as you call it)to his grandson as well as his letter to Dr. Ottema and all his correspondence with Verwijs.

HE COPIED THE WHOLE MANUSCRIPT TO VERWIJS.

This is how Verwijs managed to give a full translation to the "Frisian Society" even before Ottema had layed an eye on it, and this is why Ottema was asked by the Society to investigate the matter.

BTW. It is obvious that Verwijs was a cheat who tried to do Over de Linden in. He never gave him the translation as promised, but went behind his back to the "Frisian Society" to make a name for himself.

Next time, please check your facts before you call anyone a liar. You are starting to sound like Abramelin,

He did not copy the whole manuscript, but sent the original in parts. What you write is simply not true. The manuscript has been copied by F. Goslings. Verwijs organized that the Frisian Society would pay him for that work. Cornelis over de Linden did not want to send the complete manuscript.


Brief van Eelco Verwijs aan Cornelis over de Linden d.d. 17 mei 1869.

[E.V. zendt het ontvangen deel van het hscr. terug. Het is gecopieerd, maar hij heeft nog geen tijd gehad het te vertalen. Zal gaarne de rest ontvangen. Een jongmens [F. Goslings] copieert het voor hem. Voor de grote vacantie zal het af zijn. Bron: M. de Jong Hzn.].

Waarde Heer, Hiernevens zend ik U het van U ontvangene deel van Uw handschrift terug, dat gekopieerd is, maar waarvoor ik nog geen tijd heb kunnen vinden om aan de vertaling te denken. Ik ben er al eens mee begonnen, doch heb het werk om andere bezigheden telkens weer uit handen moeten leggen. Gaarne wil ik nu het overige hebben, daar een jongmensch [F. Goslings] hier het handschrift voor mij kopieert, die het overige nog wel voor de groote vacantie zal kunnen afmaken. Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten. Daartoe heb ik ook eerst liefst het geheel afgeschreven, om althans eens eerst door een aandachtige lezing op de hoogte te komen van hetgeen er zoo ongeveer in staat. Het een heldert dan licht het andere op. In de hoop spoedig het overige van U te ontvangen, noem ik mij met achting Uw toegenegen Dienaar w.g. Eelco Verwijs.

Edited by Knul, 25 November 2011 - 11:41 AM.


#7956    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:27 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 25 November 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:


Next time, please check your facts before you call anyone a liar. You are starting to sound like Abramelin,

Otharus and I already settled that; it was about selectively quoting someone. What I didn't know was that if you click on the little arrow left of the username in the quoted post, you will be redirected to the original post.


#7957    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:28 AM

Menno, your link is still not working: remove the point right after ... html .

http://www.rodinbook...olbbrieven.html



.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 November 2011 - 11:35 AM.


#7958    Alewyn

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:14 PM

View PostKnul, on 25 November 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

It is very relevant indeed, because Cornelis over de Linden kept silent for 19 years and just after the death of Stadermann tried to get a translation. There is no better proof, that he only came out, when his complice - the witness of the forgery died.
It only becomes relevant if you become desperate to find evidence of a conspiracy or to support your hoax theory.

Do you honestly believe that Over de Linde and Staderman, who were not academics by a long shot, could have had in them to create this very "complicated and multi-layered" hoax as described by Professor Jensma?

You keep on saying that Halbertsma created the hoax but it would seem that you want to include these two gentlemen just to be on the safe side. Get serious.

Not one of the historical facts or revelations in the Oera Linda Book has been proven wrong over the last 140 years. You are therefore implying that, between the two of them, these two non-academics had all this information?

Somebody started a false theory in the 19th century and you just follow like sheep.


#7959    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:31 PM

I have posted a while ago about newspaper archives of the northern Netherlands.

Well, here it is: http://www.archiefle...rdercourant.nl/

Then enter in [ZOEKEN] (right below "Trefwoord") 'oera linda' without quotation marks, and the result is 356 newspaper articles, and the second one (page 33 of the search results) is by Ottema himself ("J.G.O.").


A nice one here:

Leeuwarder Courant, 29-08-1959

Het geslacht OVER DE LINDEN
kwam uit Steggerda


(The Over de Linden family came from Steggerda)

Ofschoon we met het genealogisch
onderzoek nog niet veel verder gekomen
komen zijn en de stamvader in Steggerda
nog niet eens vaststaat is nu wel
bewezen dat de familie uit Steggerda
kwam en de naam dankt aan de rivier
de Linde Het Oera-Linda-mysterie is
hiermede voorgoed een familie Over de
Linden-zaak geworden al is het spijtig
voor dit geslacht dat van een duizenden
jaren oude adellijke afstamming uit de
Oera-Linda-oorden geen sprake kan
zijn want adel en bezit viel in Steggerda
niet te ontdekken.

W.TSJ. VLEER

http://www.archiefle...oera,linda,vler

For those who don't know: Steggerda is a place in Friesland, 'on the other side of the Linde (river)' or "oera Linda".


And the next article even says (it quotes a Wumkes) that Willem van Haren must have been the one who created the OLB !!
http://www.archiefle...oera,linda,vler


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 November 2011 - 12:42 PM.


#7960    Otharus

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 01:08 PM

View PostKnul, on 25 November 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

Just explain to me, why Cornelis over de Linden came out with the OLB within weeks after the death of Ernest Stadermann, but does not explain that in his so-called testament for his grandson.
Alewyn is right; it was irrelevant.
It happens too often that you ask me questions that I have already answered.
That's what I mean with "waste of time".
Please read again:

View PostOtharus, on 14 November 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:

Knul, on 14 November 2011 - 12:23 AM, said:
No explanation has been given for the fact, that Cornelis over de Linden communicated the OLB immediately after the death of Stadermann and that he did not even mention this name in his testament for Cornelis III.

Several other explanations are possible, like:
- It's a coincidence.
- It reminded Cornelis of his own mortality and he wanted to know what the manuscript was about before he died.
- Cornelis had hoped that Stadermann could help him translate the manuscript, either himself or by introducing him to someone else, or that he could help him find a more helpful book about Oldfrisian.

That he didn't mention Stadermann in his testament can also be explained by the fact that your theory is nonsense.



#7961    Otharus

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 01:13 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 25 November 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

Oct 1872 Ė Feb 1874. Essay by Cornelis over de Linden (Addressed to grandson Cornelis III).

(My translation of the Dutch version posted by Knul a few weeks ago. Knulís and Beckering Vinckersí remarks have been omitted.)
Much appreciated, Alewyn!


#7962    Otharus

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 01:21 PM

View PostKnul, on 25 November 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true.
You suggest that part of what I wrote is not true.

What part exactly?

When I make a mistake, I'm never to proud to admit it, but I have no idea what you are talking about here.


#7963    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 03:07 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 24 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:


Since the last twenty years, attention has been directed to the remains of the dwellings on piles, first observed in the Swiss lakes, and afterwards in other parts of Europe. (See Dr E Rückert, Die Pfahlbauten; Wurzburg, 1869; Dr TC Winkler, in the Volksalmanak, t.N.v.A.1867). When they were found, endeavours were made to discover, by the existing fragments of arms, tools and household articles, by whom and when these dwelling had been inhabited. There are no accounts of them in historical writers, beyond what Herodotus writes in book v. chapter 16, of the Paeonen. The only trace that has been found is one of the panels of Trajan’s Pillar, in which the destruction of a pile village in Dacia is represented.

Doubly important, therefore, is it to learn from the writing of Apollonia that she, as `Burgtmaagd’ (chief of the virgins), about 540 years before Christ, made a journey up the Rhine to Switzerland, and there became acquainted with the Lake Dwellers (marsaten). She describes their dwellings built upon piles - the people themselves - their manners and customs. She relates that they lived by fishing and hunting, and that they prepared the skins of animals with the bark of the birch-tree in order to sell the furs to the Rhine boatmen, who brought them into commerce. This account of the pile dwellings of the Swiss lakes could only have been written in the time when these dwellings still existed and were still lived in. In the second part of the writing, Konered oera Linda relates that Adel, the son of Friso (approximately 250 years before Christ), visited the pile dwellings in Switzerland with his wife Ifkja.

Later than this account there is no mention by any writer whatever of the pile dwellings, and the subject has remained for twenty centuries utterly unknown until 1853, when an extraordinary low state of the water led to the discovery of these dwellings. Therefore no one could have invented this account in the intervening period.


http://www.google.nl...BoqhKBp14kcGyuQ

NOORD EN ZUID.
TIJDSCHRIFT
TEN DIENSTE VAN ONDERWIJZERS
BIJ DE STUDIE DER
NEDERLANDSCHE TAAL-EN LETTERKUNDE
ONDER REDACTIE VAN
TACO H. DE BEEL,
Lid der Koninklijk Vlaamsche Akademie
EN MET VASTE MEDEWERKING VAN
J. E. TER GOUW, A. M. MOLENAAR EN
B. SCIIELTS VAN KLOOSTERHUIS.
Zesentwintigste Jaargang,
BLOM & OLIVIERSE. -- 1903 -- CULEMBORG.



Dr. Ottema van zijn kant kwam juist door de vermelding van
paalwoningen in het H. S. tot het besluit, dat het verhaal voor
't minst eenige eeuwen voor onze tijdrekening moest geschreven
zijn. Een derde wijst er evenwel op, dat in Van Lennep's Brinio,
waarvan de eerste druk in 1838 verscheen, reeds van paalwoningen
bij de Marezaten wordt gesproken
.



Onze voorouders (Our ancestors) - Jacob van Lennep
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

It appears the idea that the Marezaten/Marsatar lived in pile dwellings ("paalwoningen") was known or fantasized (or 'invented' as Alewyn puts it) already in 1838, 15 years before they were discovered.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 November 2011 - 03:08 PM.


#7964    Abramelin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 05:10 PM

I have waded through the 487 pages of Van Lennep's book to see where he actually mentions those 'paalwoningen' (pile dwellings/ stilt houses) of the Marezaten....

First a map that shows where he thought they lived (= near the Haarlemmermeer):

Posted Image

Then a description of 'a' people living in these pile dwellings and apparently visible from the Veluwe:

Posted Image

These "paalwoningen" ( or here, "hutten... op houten palen") were located in an area that was flat and cris-crossed by streams, mudflats and pools.

And... from what I read just now, these people were the Batavians.

Or the Marezaten/Marsatar were part of these Batavians, or someone connected the wrong dots.

Hmmmmmm...........

+++++++++++

This is another map of the Netherlands during the times of the Romans:

Posted Image

At least the Marezaten/Marsatar and the Batavians were neighbours.

And back then (Van Lennep's time) they assumed the Flevo Lake (forerunner of the later Zuiderzee/IJsselmeer) was more to the west than it actually was (near the Haarlemmermeer, a lake in the province of Noordholland that later got reclaimed).


+++++++++++

EDIT:

For comparison, here the relevant passage in the OLB:


Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are, built upon poles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the Heinde Krekalander (Italians), the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty.

The Marsaten gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman’s skin. The Burgtmaagd at Fryasburgt  told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya’s people, they looked so impudent. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rhine people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains. Along the other side of the Rhine it was just the same as at Lydasburcht (Leiden). There was a great river or lake, and upon this lake also there were people living upon piles. But they were not Frya’s people; they were black and brown men who had been employed as rowers to bring home the men who had been making foreign voyages, and they had to stay there till the fleet went back
.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 November 2011 - 06:07 PM.


#7965    Otharus

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 06:25 PM

Well done, Abe. Very interesting!